Cash tips for unlicensed captains.

[fjordstar]

To operate a charter "for hire or reward" one is required to obtain a captain's license in the U.S. So for a non-licensed captain who takes acquaintances, business clients, friends out on the boat, is it illegal to accept a cash tip, bottle of wine, etc? Seems like it could be considered as "pay" and cause some trouble.

 

[Bilbo]

Grey area....I would think that if a friend shares a bottle of wine with you aboard or shared the cost of gasoline, it would be difficult to be accused of a violation. On the other hand, if there were a festival and you were charging for rides to people that you don't know then you may get into trouble.

 

[fjordstar]

Kinda what I was thinking too as far as people I know vs people I don't. Just have some friends that have offered everything from wine to massages for a evening on the lake. Don't want to go to captain's jail! lol

 

[Chris Patterson]

I was lead to believe at one point, that the operator/owner whoever, was allowed to take nothing. No fuel money, beer, whatever, it then technically putting you "under hire". Now, I am nowhere NEAR knowing the facts of this, ...but I understood it to be..

 

[Bilbo]

I would think that the difference between being "paid for hire" or services rendered and taking a tip (or a gift) depends upon whether the receiver has set a fee (Usually up front) for services. This would seem right because they would have a tough time proving exactly why someone gave you that case of rum. I would think that this makes sense from a legal standpoint but it probably wouldn't hurt to ask the people in charge: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/csc/default.asp

Additional
Here may be something:

http://boatsafe.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/do-i-need-a-captains-license/

I'm quoting from that page in the following section:

"Section 2101 of title 46 (5a) defines “consideration” as an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary (fancy attorney word for money) payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.”

Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.

Bottom line: If you are a recreational boater, you are allowed to share expenses for a day on the water. Just don’t make payment mandatory if someone wants a boat ride."

So, I think that it's all about how you'd word things. A difference between asking and requiring. For example,
If you say,
"You can come aboard if you pay part of the expenses." Just might get an unlicensed person into a fine.
Or
"Dude, It would be nice if you helped me out with a few dollars for some for gas."

 

[fjordstar]

Thanks Bilbo. Looks like a solid definition to me.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Yepper, that cleared the smoke around here as well. I had it all backwards, which is not unusual for me. And it was the reason I was so wishy-washy about it too. I probably got 'including', or 'the exception' wires crossed..

 

[Bilbo]

Thanks Bilbo. Looks like a solid definition to me.

No problem....Tips gratefully accepted.:dance:

 

[fjordstar]

lol was waiting for a comment like that

 

[Picflight]

Take the massage offer.

 

[centerline]

No problem....Tips gratefully accepted.:dance:

if you look up the proper definition of "tip", im sure you will find it is defined as a monetary gain, and it will fall outside of the exceptions....

only the sharing of "actual expenses" in one capacity or another can be legally accepted without a minimum of a six-pack license.

a lot of it may be in the wording, but if you were to take family members (outside of your immediate family) friends or others out and someone got hurt, no matter how minor or severe, and a lawsuit was filed for some reason, and/or possible insurance claim the receipts of the actual costs and expenses could definitely come into play, and whether the boat owner or captain had any additional personal gain other than the "actual" cost of the trip.

a lot depends on how the claimant words his side of the story......
and even then you may be cleared or not, because its a very fine line that is left to interpretation by the local authorities, and can be swayed by the events surrounding the whole incident.....

 

[Bilbo]

if you look up the proper definition of "tip", im sure you will find it is defined as a monetary gain, and it will fall outside of the exceptions..................

I think that it depends upon the situation as you've written further into your post but the issue with the tip is that in actuality it's not to be considered a required fee. If you've encountered a situation where the tip is automatically added into the bill of a service rendered I'd think that it then becomes something else.
The tip (gratuity) or the amount of it is generally given of free will and the term 'reward' generally comes up in legal definitions. So, it may not have to do with the issue of monetary gain, income but whether or not an exchange of money, items or other services are voluntarily offered or they are agreed upon by the two parties as being required.
Also from that info above....

Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.

Alas, to be younger and to have enough room aboard our fair yacht to employ a few decorations "for morale or entertainment."

 

[centerline]

The tip (gratuity) or the amount of it is generally given of free will and the term 'reward' generally comes up in legal definitions. So, it may not have to do with the issue of monetary gain, income but whether or not an exchange of money, items or other services are voluntarily offered or they are agreed upon by the two parties as being required.

It does has everything to do with monetary gain and NOT the intent for why it was given, or why it was taken....
the law does not discriminate the difference between a $20 dollar tip or a $500 dollar tip.... it is monetary gain no matter how you slice it or what the intent is.

I chartered my dive boat for a few years and I Know for a fact that tips are considered "pay" even if it doesnt cover the actual cost of the trip.
in the fine line of the law, if the actual expenses of the trip are not agreed upon before leaving the dock on the outbound trip, then, after you leave the dock and someone hands you some money as a tip, that can and probably will be considered as payment....

BUT.... it would probably only come up in a lawsuit, or if someone ever ever said that, "ol charley down at the dock will take you on a sight seeing tour of the bay for 20 bucks", and a real charter captain overhears it and turns them in....

the law helps protect the industry as well as the paying customers, and does very little to protect the boat owner or captain in any way. charter boats have quite a bit more rules and equipment requirements they must run under and if someone without the proper certifications is accepting tips for tours, that is against the law, no matter the intent.

 

[Bilbo]

Lets hope that the issue doesn't ever come up in court. That would most likely indicate something's happened that is more serious than a simple licensing or income tax issue.

"ol charley down at the dock will take you on a sight seeing tour of the bay for 20 bucks", and a real charter captain overhears it and turns them in....

^hearsay evidence may give the person being gossiped about some grief but it's not worth much.

 

[centerline]

hearsay evidence may give the person being gossiped about some grief but it's not worth much.

and if it wasnt for the grief and trouble that it could cause a person for taking tips or cash for giving rides in his boat, all the wording of the law and the hearsay that always surrounds an investigation wouldnt matter a bit.... and no matter how innocent you may be found, there is no one thats going to make restitution to you for the trouble or cost of proving yourself innocent....

but otherwise its all good

 

[Bilbo]

It's all interesting. We know someone with a fairly big cabin cruiser at a Lake Erie marina. My wife's been up there for overnighters with the gals but has never been out. I think that they bought a floating vacation cabin for impressing their friends because they rarely do go out and if they have people aboard, they pass the hat for the gas tank. We sail and socialize occasionally. There is really nothing to sight see on our lake and the fishing isn't chartered. If you want to have a good time, lawn chairs at the boat ramp is always entertaining. I have been to places like Hatteras where the chartering is probably very tightly regulated....I'm sure.

 

[allen-deckard]

same rules that I have to follow for my private pilot's license.

Honestly legally it's the same rules that apply to cars you cant accept anything beyond a split of the costs that arise from the trip without a commercial chauffer's license. (probably spelled that wrong sorry)

Anyway it's the same law that apply's for just about any mode of transportation before you can take pay for passengers or cargo.

 

[txtowman]

A captains license is not required for inland lakes in Texas, is it not the same in Georgia?

 

[fjordstar]

Not required but I do dream of running charters when I get a bigger boat. Not really a ton of room to move around on a C22 when you have to many bodies.

 

[CaptGregg]

As a boat owner and operator, in the eyes of the law, rather licensed or not you are the captain/skipper meaning you are the operator in responsible charge. In other words, you're liable for life, injury or damage to property and can be sued. Keep that in mind before taking out family/friends/acquaintances.