Capsizing a C-22

[Bilbo]

....Its a rough world out there.

Thanks for that link.
Perhaps, I tend to think that Nature is ever vigilant to her cause of recycling the less fortunate. Nature often does this in a gradual way, like stepping into quick sand or going boating on a beautiful morning without checking the weather report to see that nasty front moving in. At some point, there may become a tragic point of no return. I think that last year there was a post about a guy who just got a sailboat in the spring and took his two young kids out right after the lake thawed for his first sailing experience. When he capsized and sunk this "new to him" sail boat, he left the kids swimming in a frigid lake to go and get help. I think that for the younger of his sons, he returned too late.
Last summer I was browsing Youtube for C 22 movies and saw some guy with a wife and two beautiful young girls sailing their recently purchased 22 under breezy conditions with the pop top raised. The boat was heeling with the puffs to about 40 in the vid.

 

[anchorclanker]

Last summer I was browsing Youtube for C 22 movies and saw some guy with a wife and two beautiful young girls sailing their recently purchased 22 under breezy conditions with the pop top raised. The boat was heeling with the puffs to about 40 in the vid.

I lived 50 years in Minnesota. There are some 14,000 lakes up there, you would think the residents would have it figured out, whats safe, whats not. Yet every year there are 100's of cars that break through the ice, dozens of snowmobiles that go under, and many drownings. And thats just in the winter. Once the lakes are open, all the idiot boaters come out and start trying to kill themselves.

We stopped along the lake we lived by one evening, all the ice fishermen were coming and going, dragging their equipment. This guy was going out and I asked how thick the ice was. Just 4 days ago the lake was open water. He said it was about 6 inches, which would be more than enough to walk out on. So I used my thumb and middle finger to indicate about 6 inches and said "like this thick? He in turn used his thumb and index finger to indicate about 3 inches. His face turned white almost instantly. All these clowns were talking 6 inches yet no one was really measuring.

It was the same every winter. The kids would come down and throw large rocks out on the new ice to see if it broke. If it didnt they started walking out on it. By evening guys would go out with a bucket and drill a hole. The next day you saw some daring to drive 4 wheelers out, and within a day or so, you would see a truck. It was almost as though some would see a kid walking near shore, and assume it would hold them out farther. The 4 wheeler guys would then assume if it would hold a man, it would hold their machine, and the truck guys made the next jump in intelligence. Only God forbid they drove out in a lil Ford Ranger, oh hell no. They drove out in F250/350 diesel 4x4's or Suburbans, many with 1000 pound snow plows on the front. Why more dont die up there is more luck or divine intervention than anything to do with brilliance.

The funniest one was a Ford Truck commercial. This guy lost his snowmobile through a hole in the ice. So his buddy backs his Ford F150 4x4 with the "northland edition" right up to the hole while his buddy hooks up the rope. "Hit it Jer", says the buddy. If the ice was so thin it couldnt hold a snowmobile, in what Universe would anyone think it would hold a 4x4 F150? So are they just playing into the low intelligence of the average buyer, or are the ones making the advertizing just as stupid? It played several seasons so I guess there wasnt too many who saw a problem with it.

Lot of not so smart people out there.

 

[Bilbo]

"We stopped along the lake we lived by one evening, all the ice fishermen were coming and going, dragging their equipment. This guy was going out and I asked how thick the ice was. Just 4 days ago the lake was open water. He said it was about 6 inches, which would be more than enough to walk out on. So I used my thumb and middle finger to indicate about 6 inches and said "like this thick? He in turn used his thumb and index finger to indicate about 3 inches. His face turned white almost instantly. All these clowns were talking 6 inches yet no one was really measuring."

BWhaaa!!! Now they are sounding like their wives.

We just lost a woman in our area. .....She chased her dog out onto thin ice and eventually they found the body.
I think that a few years a bunch of ice fishermen and their vehicles were adrift for some time on a big chunk of ice out in Lake Erie.

 

[Jackdaw]

On Lake Minnetonka just west of Minneapolis, it takes DECADES of boating accidents to equal the single year death toll of cars and trucks going through the ice. This year so far, 16 cars through, with 4 deaths. Darwin in action.

 

[anchorclanker]

The most interesting thing is, they (the people), think MORE laws and regulations will fix it. They have a huge police (sheriff actually) presence on Minnetonka (it has its ownl station), strictly enforced 40 mph speed limits (state wide IIRC), etc.. And those speed limits are also radar enforced in winter by deputies on sleds with radar guns!

I dont know the answer, but when I was a kid and there were little to no regulations, almost no one went through the ice, boats almost never so much as touched each other, and drownings were rare. But then too, people had a lot more respect for themselves and one another. Now they all seem much more stupid and far more ignorant/arrogant. De-evolution? I mean, who would load up their sailboat with their most precious possessions (wife and kids), open up the pop top, go out on ice cold water on a windy day, and put the boat over on its side?

 

[RichH]

C22s, especially the older versions in which the heavy Center Board isnt or cannot be locked down, are easily capsized and can invert (mast down) trapping those inside within the inverted hull.
I have been on two rescues involving inverted C22s where when the CB was not 'locked', and where the CB freely moved/rotated itself back into its 'trunk' when the boat went beyond 90° over and which added to the 'inversion'.
Moral of the story: be sure the CB is 'locked down' on a C22, especially the older versions.

.... and of course on any displacement boat when the winds are 'real boisterous', you should 'button up' and close all water ingress sites to prevent possible 'down flooding' through an open companionway, etc. ;-)

 

[Jackdaw]

C22s, especially the older versions in which the heavy Center Board isnt or cannot be locked down, are easily capsized and can invert (mast down) trapping those inside within the inverted hull.
I have been on two rescues involving inverted C22s where when the CB was not 'locked', and where the CB freely moved/rotated itself back into its 'trunk' when the boat went beyond 90° over and which added to the 'inversion'.
Moral of the story: be sure the CB is 'locked down' on a C22, especially the older versions.

.... and of course on any displacement boat when the winds are 'real boisterous', you should 'button up' and close all water ingress sites to prevent possible 'down flooding' through an open companionway, etc. ;-)

Rich,

Just a observation; I owned an older C22, and the locking 'thing' was a screw that was tightened into the keel to hold it in place via friction. It was by necessity very close to the pivot point. When moved either by grounding or gravity in a capsize, the heavy keel had HUGE mechanical leverage against the screw. I really doubt that it would offer more than marginal resistance to the keel swinging back.

 

[anchorclanker]

I dont think my 222 has a keel locking thingy, lol. But then I dont ever intend to open up all the hatchways and take it out into conditions that would put water through them. That would be stoopid! Like whatsisname in Jaws said, "we need a bigger boat".

 

[Richie50]

And the companionway covers need "deadbolt" latches on the upper corners, or they will slide/float out.


Chris, could you expand on the deadbolt latches, haven't heard of this. Thanks for all the great information you and the others have posted. Richie

 

[Chris Patterson]

Not a chance. Not even a LITTLE chance that the little half inch "locking" bolt, simply screwed into the side of the keel would stop a hunk of iron weighing 550 pounds. With that screw only about a foot from the pivot point, (As Jackdaw noted), I contend that it may slow it down, at say 100 degrees, and bearing in mind some frictional forces at work with the remaining keel section still up in the trunk.
So without any hard facts on the exact point at when it would retract back into the keel trunk, lets say 110 degrees and it's coming home. Nobody could possibly think it would retract at 90 deg. So that's only a theoretical 20 degree margin of the point of no return. And if that thing is laying hard on her side, it's all over anyway, unless the boat is buttoned up like an offshore boat.
I hate to sound disparaging, I really do, I own one. But it's little more than a dinghy with a cabin, and in any blow much, everyone should be topside, with P.F.D.'s on.
Lord, I wish I had the time, and I would grab a 200 dollar "beater boat", take it out and jack the mast down to the water and just SEE what would happen using angle gauges. I might.......run off and join the circus. As Jo-Jo, The Dog Faced Boy. He walks, he talks, he CRAWLS on his belly like a reptile..

 

[Bilbo]

I'd bet that you'd have to have the tip of the mast about 5' below water surface for the keel to think about closing. But when that keel makes up it's mind.....it's all over at that point anyway. The other situation that's going to be in play is waves. They end up swamping the boat when It's at 90 degs. This is when the hatch boards and lockers need to be tight.

 

[Bill Coughlin]

Is there any floatation built into the Catalina 22? I have an older 83'. Trying to determine if knocked down how long/if right itself after capsize.

 

[agprice22]

No. There is no flotation built into the C22. The boat would be extremely difficult to capsize when sailed in the conditions for which it was designed. If you find yourself in rough conditions, high winds, threatening a knockdown, close your crib boards, as they would block the rapid flooding of the cabin and the sinking of your vessel. Otherwise, the boat is designed to right itself after a knockdown.

The most likely sources of a capsize or sinking would be heavy seas or overloading the boat with passengers, which is probably the more likely of the two. Wind is unlikely to cause a capsize because it will simply spill from the sails once you lay the boat down.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[Drevi17546]

Some did have factory installed floatation but mine (a 1977) was waterlogged to the point where it was just keeping water in my bilges. I cut all mine out. As it was an option I feel no need to replace it. Cutting it all out got rid of that musty smell and I finally have dry bilges except when I get condensation. If you have the installed floatation you would know. It'll be showing under the step on the starboard side. There is a forum I started a couple months ago. If you search installed floatation you should find it. Got pictures in there of the removal project.

 

[MacGreg]

The good news is, it is hard to lay one down. I sail this boat HARD on some occasions, going out when others have tied down. With one or two able bodied sailors, I'll fly every rag on the boat, just to see if I can wash the windows. Yeah, it'll go way down, but not flat. And yes I know before all the performance sailors jump me about it not being an efficient point of sail layed over like that, but that's not the point. The boat is expendable to me, little more than a toy that I could "eat" if I had to. I just like to see what it can take. And it'll take a LOT.
I do not recommend this type of activity unless you are seriously on your game, but I've seen this done once or twice. On T.V. And read half a book on sailing one time.
But seriously, keep your sheets handy to cut loose, keep the family in P.F.D.'s, and you'll be fine. If I can't hurt it, I will be surprised if you do..

Yeah, but is the $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 hazardous waste recovery and disposal fee bill you get from the city/county/coast guard "expendable" too? ;-)

 

[allen-deckard]

Lake I sail on is at its shallow end 150 deep end 250' deep

My boat sinks I swim ashore and walk home and pretend nothing happened.