I have been reading on some sights that the mac 26 may and will become unstable when the water ballast is being filled or emptied at the half way point wile under sail, and has the risk of capsizing, how much truth is there to this statement, I'm still looking into buying a mac 26
capsize
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My friend Russ had a Mac 26 and he told me the same thing because it happened to him and it scared the heck out of him. So the thing to do is stow the sails and run the engine in forward gear while emptying the tank. My friend Walter had a 2002 Mac 26 and he would run the engine in reverse to fill the tank. Without ballast in those boats it's like sailing a centerboard day sailer, all things be relative. I'm told that the new Macs have dagger boards and I would prefer centerboards myself in case I ever hit something the boards would swing up. I'm not sure what would happen if you hit something with a dagger board. Walter had centerboards on his boat. I sailed it and I was very impressed by the way she sailed. I'm not a fan of wheel steering, but the small wheel seemed pretty easy to handle. The MacGregor people have come up with a lot of great ideas for their boats. Good luck with your search.
Joe
Which 26 are you looking at buying? The 26 classics, the D (made in the late 80's) followed by the S (made in the early 90's) should always have the ballast filled regardless of if they are sailing or under power.
The X then followed the S and the X was followed by the present M. They also should always have the ballast filled when sailing. Under power they have the option to empty the ballast, but there still are some rules you should follow regarding load and such with the ballast empty.
I've never heard of a problem of being unstable "at the half way point while under sail" since you shouldn't be doing this with the sails up for any of these models. Maybe I didn't understand the question,
Sum
Yes, the boat can become extremely unstable if sailed with the water ballast tanks partially filled. This is due to the free surface effect of the water in the tank. Basically, as the boat heels, the water rushes to the lower side, and the center of gravity of the boat shifts dramatically. This is why the boat is not supposed to be sailed unless the water ballast tanks are FULL.
This doesn't occur once the tanks are full, since the water can't shift if the tanks are full, and there are no free surface effects.
This doesn't occur once the tanks are full, since the water can't shift if the tanks are full, and there are no free surface effects.
I think it's like Sum said. It depends on the model and year of the Mac. Walter's 2002 Mac 26 with the new Honda 50 hps outboard could cruise right along at about 28 knots with the tanks empty. We did it one day out on the bay. Also, Walter told us that his boat had baffles in the tanks. So I guess it all depends on the year and the model of the boat.
Motoring w/o ballast on an X or M is one thing, sailing without ballast is something else again. I'm reasonably sure that no one on a keelboat would try to remove their ballast and sail- so why do people think they should be able to sail a Mac without ballast? When all else fails, read the directions! -Paul
The question is mute...as one should not have the sails up with water ballast half filled, filling, or emptying. Me and a friend tried to sail my 26s w no water ballast...rigged a trapeze like setup...but the wind (lake wind) was too variable to see if the idea had merit. Half full, of course, is a bad idea as the water can slosh...aside from bad ballast, I would think it could even damage the water tank.
Water ballast boats
Copied from another website..
Two kids drowned in the hull of a capsized Mac26X on the 4th of July at
10 PM. An acquaintance of mine was powering up, at night, with 8 adults
and 3 kids on board. The three kids were below when the boat flipped.
Desperate attempts to rescue the kids from the over turned Mac, left two
dead. (they were caught up in lines below). One child and a dog were
rescued.
The grizzly event seemed to be the result of not following the WARNING
that should be more boldly communicated to Mac 26 operators. I'm writing
this as a follow up to all Mac 26 water-ballasted boat owners to try and
make sure everyone understands how serious the conditions are.
The WARNING I have states, "The Ballast tank should be full when under
sail in rough conditions. It is a good idea to have the tank full when
there are more that 4 Adults on the boat.
When powering over 6 MPH, the rudders and centerboard must be fully up.
Lower sails.
When operating at any speed without a full water ballast tank, no one
should be on the cabin top or foredeck, and crew weight should be low
and toward the rear of the boat."
I have a number of lengthy articles written on the disaster which
unfortunately do not shed a great amount of light on the particular
technical issues which may have actually caused the rolling moment which
flipped the 26X in relatively calm conditions. The Burlington Free Press
article suggests that the ballast was empty, the Captain was powering up
after having been rafted up with another boat for the fireworks. There
were 11 total people on the boat and at least one person on the forward
deck of the boat. To sum up one description, the boat just started to
roll and within 30 seconds after they left the other boat, before any
one knew what happened, the boat had thrown all occupants into the
water, or trapped them below and then capsized.
>From my perspective, the rolling seems to have been caused by the
torque of the motor in combination with other forces (possibly the
rudders or center board which may have been left down) in combination
with the high center of gravity caused by not having water in the
ballast tanks and the increased mass of the people on deck. The sails
were down and the wind was relatively calm as I said before.
I'll stop here in case you have this info already. I believe we should
make this warning available on the web site and that we should put it
out to everyone in the group so that even those riding on other 26
water-ballasted boats will know what the WARNINGs are, for their own
safety.
According to the Paper, the warning tag is apparently supposed to be on
the steering pedestal but my tag was inside the 3 ring binder I received
with the boat. I'm sure we will hear more about this later.
From: July 2002 Burlington VT Free Press
Actual articles available at:
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html
Improper use of boat seen in fatal accident
By Emily Stone
Free Press Staff Writer
The boat that capsized on the Fourth of July and killed two children
was overloaded and was being used incorrectly, according to the boat's
manufacturer.
The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4.
The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case.
The boat has no visible warning about needing to fill the tank, said
the driver's lawyer, Richard Rubin. Martin does not own the boat and has
driven it only three or four times, Rubin said. Martin's brother-in-law
owns the boat and keeps it at Martin's home, Rubin said.
The boat capsized about 10 p.m. on Lake Champlain in Ferrisburgh.
Nine-year-old Melissa Mack and her 4-year-old brother, Trevor, drowned.
The accident left the community wondering what caused a boat on calm
waters to suddenly capsize.
Martin, 46, of Charlotte, pleaded innocent last week to a misdemeanor
charge of boating while intoxicated. He has not been charged in
connection with the children's deaths. Addison County State's Attorney
John Quinn said the investigation is ongoing to determine if Martin's
alleged intoxication contributed to the accident.
The MacGregor 26 does not have a heavy, permanent keel like many large
sailboats. The lack of a keel allows the boat to move quickly when used
as a power boat and makes the boat light enough to be towed behind a
car.
Instead of a keel, the boat has a large water tank that can be filled
to stabilize the boat. When the tank is empty, the boat will not right
itself if it tips over. With the tank filled, the water acts as ballast
and is designed to pull the boat upright if it starts to tip, just like
boats with conventional keels.
The MacGregor company, based in Costa Mesa, Calif., and a number of
MacGregor owners in Vermont doggedly defend the boat as completely safe
if used correctly.
"As long as you're doing what you're supposed to be, you're safe," said
MacGregor owner John Gaudette of Post Mills. "It's like anything. If you
don't know what you're doing, something is going to happen." The boat
The water ballast tanks on the boat Martin was driving were empty when
the boat was brought back to shore, Quinn said.
Boats need ballast on the bottom to keep them from tipping over.
Ballast balances the weight at the top of the boat and forces the bottom
of a boat back into the water.
Boats with large, heavy keels cannot be driven fast. The MacGregor
compromises by having a flat-bottom that can be filled with 1,400 pounds
of water. The owners can choose a fast boat with an empty tank or a
slower, more stable boat with a full tank, depending upon their activity
for the day.
The front page of the MacGregor 26 instruction manual says the boat can
capsize if the ballast tank is empty. The manual also says the boat's
capacity is six people.
"With more than this, the weight of the crew becomes very large in
relation to the weight of the boat, and the stability of the boat might
be compromised," the manual says.
There is supposed to be a safety sticker on the side of the steering
column warning the driver to fill the tank if more than four people are
on board. The sticker urges people to stay toward the rear of the boat
and to avoid sitting on the deck when the tank is empty. Passengers on
the boat Martin was driving were sitting on the deck when it tipped,
according to passengers on the boat.
Roger MacGregor said all MacGregors made after 1997 should have that
sticker on the steering column, along with other safety stickers. His
inspection records for the boat Martin was driving show that the sticker
was on the steering column when it left the plant. The boat is a 2000
model.
That sticker was not on the steering column of the boat as it sat in a
Charlotte marina Thursday. In its place was a sticker warning the driver
not to put the boat on the trailer unless the ballast tank is empty.
MacGregor said he did not know why the sticker about filling the ballast
tank was not next to the steering wheel.
Because the stickers are not permanent, MacGregor said he stresses the
safety instructions in the manual over the stickers.
Martin's lawyer, Rubin, said the absence of a warning about the ballast
tanks posted on the boat is significant.
"There's nothing on the boat that warns the operator that the boat is
unstable without ballast with more than four or five people on board,"
he said. Loyal owners MacGregor owners in Vermont raced to defend their
crafts when news of the accident spread.
"The boat, when operated properly, is absolutely safe," said Dave Hill
of Grand Isle, who owns two MacGregor boats. He keeps one in Florida and
another moored by his home.
Keeping the water tank filled is the difference between sailing safely
and disaster, he said.
He said he was once in high winds on Lake Champlain with his full sails
up. A gust brought the boat over 90 degrees so the main sail was in the
water.
"It popped right back up," he said. His ballast tank was full on that
trip.
"If you turn it on its side and the ballast tank is empty, it's gone,"
said Hill, 63. "There's no kidding around about that."
Hill said he sees the water ballast as a safety feature. If he's
sailing and is caught in bad weather, he said he'll lower the sails and
empty the tank to motor home as quickly as possible.
The MacGregor's water ballast system is the key component in the boats'
appeal, according to the company and boat owners. The option of draining
the ballast means the boat can move much more quickly than boats with
keels.
The MacGregor 26 can handle up to a 50 horsepower engine, giving the
boat just enough speed to pull a water-skier. The company says the boat
can move at more than 20 miles per hour.
An empty ballast tank also makes the boat light enough to pull on a
trailer behind a car. The owner can save money on dock space by keeping
the boat in a trailer all season, or can move the boat easily from one
lake to another. Criminal case Police who responded to the scene of the
Fourth of July accident wrote in court papers that Martin was acting
intoxicated and failed a number of sobriety tests.
Vermont State Police Senior Trooper Christopher J. Campbell wrote that
Martin took a breath test that showed his blood alcohol level was .217,
which is more than twice the legal limit of .08 for driving a boat.
Martin later refused to take another breath test at the police barracks,
the court papers said.
Police cited Martin that night for boating while intoxicated with death
resulting. The charge was reduced by Quinn to boating while intoxicated.
Quinn said he has no evidence to connect the accident or the children's
deaths with Martin's alleged drunkenness.
"You can be perfectly sober and overload the boat," Quinn said. "You
can be perfectly sober and not load the ballast tank. You can be
perfectly sober and do something stupid."
Police are continuing to investigate the accident, he said. Martin
could be charged with the children's deaths or with negligence,
depending on what the police find.
Witnesses to the accident said they do not know what tipped the boat
over so suddenly.
Martin had tied the MacGregor to a friend's boat to watch the fireworks
at the Basin Harbor Club on the Fourth. When the show ended, the
11-person crew and their two dogs spread out across the boat and settled
in for a ride back to shore.
Martin started moving the MacGregor away from the other boat while the
two were still attached, according to the other boat's owner, Julie
Welch, of Shelburne. She told him to stop, they unhooked their lines,
and Martin motored away, she said. She is sure their lines were
completely off each other's boat when he left.
"The next thing I know, my kids were screaming that the boat was going
over," she said. "It was just bottom up."
Adults from the MacGregor searched the water and were joined by rescue
workers and other boaters. They found Melissa and Trevor wearing their
life jackets, tangled underwater in the boat's lines. Their sister,
8-year-old Dallas, was in the boat's cabin when it capsized. She was
found floating in an air pocket inside and was pulled to safety.
All the adults onboard swam safely to other boats.
Welch said she thought Martin had been drinking, but couldn't tell by
talking to him how much he'd had to drink.
Welch said she is devastated by what happened.
"I haven't been down to my boat since," she said. "I probably will
never go on my boat again on the Fourth of July."
Copied from another website..
Two kids drowned in the hull of a capsized Mac26X on the 4th of July at
10 PM. An acquaintance of mine was powering up, at night, with 8 adults
and 3 kids on board. The three kids were below when the boat flipped.
Desperate attempts to rescue the kids from the over turned Mac, left two
dead. (they were caught up in lines below). One child and a dog were
rescued.
The grizzly event seemed to be the result of not following the WARNING
that should be more boldly communicated to Mac 26 operators. I'm writing
this as a follow up to all Mac 26 water-ballasted boat owners to try and
make sure everyone understands how serious the conditions are.
The WARNING I have states, "The Ballast tank should be full when under
sail in rough conditions. It is a good idea to have the tank full when
there are more that 4 Adults on the boat.
When powering over 6 MPH, the rudders and centerboard must be fully up.
Lower sails.
When operating at any speed without a full water ballast tank, no one
should be on the cabin top or foredeck, and crew weight should be low
and toward the rear of the boat."
I have a number of lengthy articles written on the disaster which
unfortunately do not shed a great amount of light on the particular
technical issues which may have actually caused the rolling moment which
flipped the 26X in relatively calm conditions. The Burlington Free Press
article suggests that the ballast was empty, the Captain was powering up
after having been rafted up with another boat for the fireworks. There
were 11 total people on the boat and at least one person on the forward
deck of the boat. To sum up one description, the boat just started to
roll and within 30 seconds after they left the other boat, before any
one knew what happened, the boat had thrown all occupants into the
water, or trapped them below and then capsized.
>From my perspective, the rolling seems to have been caused by the
torque of the motor in combination with other forces (possibly the
rudders or center board which may have been left down) in combination
with the high center of gravity caused by not having water in the
ballast tanks and the increased mass of the people on deck. The sails
were down and the wind was relatively calm as I said before.
I'll stop here in case you have this info already. I believe we should
make this warning available on the web site and that we should put it
out to everyone in the group so that even those riding on other 26
water-ballasted boats will know what the WARNINGs are, for their own
safety.
According to the Paper, the warning tag is apparently supposed to be on
the steering pedestal but my tag was inside the 3 ring binder I received
with the boat. I'm sure we will hear more about this later.
From: July 2002 Burlington VT Free Press
Actual articles available at:
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html
Improper use of boat seen in fatal accident
By Emily Stone
Free Press Staff Writer
The boat that capsized on the Fourth of July and killed two children
was overloaded and was being used incorrectly, according to the boat's
manufacturer.
The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4.
The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case.
The boat has no visible warning about needing to fill the tank, said
the driver's lawyer, Richard Rubin. Martin does not own the boat and has
driven it only three or four times, Rubin said. Martin's brother-in-law
owns the boat and keeps it at Martin's home, Rubin said.
The boat capsized about 10 p.m. on Lake Champlain in Ferrisburgh.
Nine-year-old Melissa Mack and her 4-year-old brother, Trevor, drowned.
The accident left the community wondering what caused a boat on calm
waters to suddenly capsize.
Martin, 46, of Charlotte, pleaded innocent last week to a misdemeanor
charge of boating while intoxicated. He has not been charged in
connection with the children's deaths. Addison County State's Attorney
John Quinn said the investigation is ongoing to determine if Martin's
alleged intoxication contributed to the accident.
The MacGregor 26 does not have a heavy, permanent keel like many large
sailboats. The lack of a keel allows the boat to move quickly when used
as a power boat and makes the boat light enough to be towed behind a
car.
Instead of a keel, the boat has a large water tank that can be filled
to stabilize the boat. When the tank is empty, the boat will not right
itself if it tips over. With the tank filled, the water acts as ballast
and is designed to pull the boat upright if it starts to tip, just like
boats with conventional keels.
The MacGregor company, based in Costa Mesa, Calif., and a number of
MacGregor owners in Vermont doggedly defend the boat as completely safe
if used correctly.
"As long as you're doing what you're supposed to be, you're safe," said
MacGregor owner John Gaudette of Post Mills. "It's like anything. If you
don't know what you're doing, something is going to happen." The boat
The water ballast tanks on the boat Martin was driving were empty when
the boat was brought back to shore, Quinn said.
Boats need ballast on the bottom to keep them from tipping over.
Ballast balances the weight at the top of the boat and forces the bottom
of a boat back into the water.
Boats with large, heavy keels cannot be driven fast. The MacGregor
compromises by having a flat-bottom that can be filled with 1,400 pounds
of water. The owners can choose a fast boat with an empty tank or a
slower, more stable boat with a full tank, depending upon their activity
for the day.
The front page of the MacGregor 26 instruction manual says the boat can
capsize if the ballast tank is empty. The manual also says the boat's
capacity is six people.
"With more than this, the weight of the crew becomes very large in
relation to the weight of the boat, and the stability of the boat might
be compromised," the manual says.
There is supposed to be a safety sticker on the side of the steering
column warning the driver to fill the tank if more than four people are
on board. The sticker urges people to stay toward the rear of the boat
and to avoid sitting on the deck when the tank is empty. Passengers on
the boat Martin was driving were sitting on the deck when it tipped,
according to passengers on the boat.
Roger MacGregor said all MacGregors made after 1997 should have that
sticker on the steering column, along with other safety stickers. His
inspection records for the boat Martin was driving show that the sticker
was on the steering column when it left the plant. The boat is a 2000
model.
That sticker was not on the steering column of the boat as it sat in a
Charlotte marina Thursday. In its place was a sticker warning the driver
not to put the boat on the trailer unless the ballast tank is empty.
MacGregor said he did not know why the sticker about filling the ballast
tank was not next to the steering wheel.
Because the stickers are not permanent, MacGregor said he stresses the
safety instructions in the manual over the stickers.
Martin's lawyer, Rubin, said the absence of a warning about the ballast
tanks posted on the boat is significant.
"There's nothing on the boat that warns the operator that the boat is
unstable without ballast with more than four or five people on board,"
he said. Loyal owners MacGregor owners in Vermont raced to defend their
crafts when news of the accident spread.
"The boat, when operated properly, is absolutely safe," said Dave Hill
of Grand Isle, who owns two MacGregor boats. He keeps one in Florida and
another moored by his home.
Keeping the water tank filled is the difference between sailing safely
and disaster, he said.
He said he was once in high winds on Lake Champlain with his full sails
up. A gust brought the boat over 90 degrees so the main sail was in the
water.
"It popped right back up," he said. His ballast tank was full on that
trip.
"If you turn it on its side and the ballast tank is empty, it's gone,"
said Hill, 63. "There's no kidding around about that."
Hill said he sees the water ballast as a safety feature. If he's
sailing and is caught in bad weather, he said he'll lower the sails and
empty the tank to motor home as quickly as possible.
The MacGregor's water ballast system is the key component in the boats'
appeal, according to the company and boat owners. The option of draining
the ballast means the boat can move much more quickly than boats with
keels.
The MacGregor 26 can handle up to a 50 horsepower engine, giving the
boat just enough speed to pull a water-skier. The company says the boat
can move at more than 20 miles per hour.
An empty ballast tank also makes the boat light enough to pull on a
trailer behind a car. The owner can save money on dock space by keeping
the boat in a trailer all season, or can move the boat easily from one
lake to another. Criminal case Police who responded to the scene of the
Fourth of July accident wrote in court papers that Martin was acting
intoxicated and failed a number of sobriety tests.
Vermont State Police Senior Trooper Christopher J. Campbell wrote that
Martin took a breath test that showed his blood alcohol level was .217,
which is more than twice the legal limit of .08 for driving a boat.
Martin later refused to take another breath test at the police barracks,
the court papers said.
Police cited Martin that night for boating while intoxicated with death
resulting. The charge was reduced by Quinn to boating while intoxicated.
Quinn said he has no evidence to connect the accident or the children's
deaths with Martin's alleged drunkenness.
"You can be perfectly sober and overload the boat," Quinn said. "You
can be perfectly sober and not load the ballast tank. You can be
perfectly sober and do something stupid."
Police are continuing to investigate the accident, he said. Martin
could be charged with the children's deaths or with negligence,
depending on what the police find.
Witnesses to the accident said they do not know what tipped the boat
over so suddenly.
Martin had tied the MacGregor to a friend's boat to watch the fireworks
at the Basin Harbor Club on the Fourth. When the show ended, the
11-person crew and their two dogs spread out across the boat and settled
in for a ride back to shore.
Martin started moving the MacGregor away from the other boat while the
two were still attached, according to the other boat's owner, Julie
Welch, of Shelburne. She told him to stop, they unhooked their lines,
and Martin motored away, she said. She is sure their lines were
completely off each other's boat when he left.
"The next thing I know, my kids were screaming that the boat was going
over," she said. "It was just bottom up."
Adults from the MacGregor searched the water and were joined by rescue
workers and other boaters. They found Melissa and Trevor wearing their
life jackets, tangled underwater in the boat's lines. Their sister,
8-year-old Dallas, was in the boat's cabin when it capsized. She was
found floating in an air pocket inside and was pulled to safety.
All the adults onboard swam safely to other boats.
Welch said she thought Martin had been drinking, but couldn't tell by
talking to him how much he'd had to drink.
Welch said she is devastated by what happened.
"I haven't been down to my boat since," she said. "I probably will
never go on my boat again on the Fourth of July."
thank you for the reply, I must admit it is disturbing but very helpful,I will no longer consider a water ballast boat
Well he got just what he was looking for posting that..........scaring the shi* out of someone and by doing so he did a great disservice to you and to anyone who owns a Macgregor.
That is a tragic story for sure, but it is by no means indicative of what is going to happen owning a water ballast boat. How many 'traditional' sailboats with keels have capsized and had loss of life associated with them? MacGregor has sold tens of thousands of water ballast boats along with Hunter and others. They are not an unsafe boat. If you plan on buying a boat and not following the builders instructions and overload it like was the case in that instance and probably operate it drunk then you should probably not buy any boat.
There are a number of people out there that just hate water ballast boats on principal and will do anything they can to smear them and spread any kind of damaging info they can about them. I don't know if Watercolors is one, but from that lenghty copied post I wouldn't doubt it.
We have been throught some very bad conditions with our Mac. This was but one of them ...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html
.....and it has never once given us concern for bringing us through safely.
Sorry that you have let one person dictate your feelings about water ballast boats. I don't want to put you on the spot, but why would you let that article stop you from considering buying a water ballast boat any more than you would consider buying a car after reading about an accident by a drunk driver driving that type of car past its designed limits?
Sum
Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID
Our Mac Pages
Mac Links
Just as a side note. Here are some capsize ratios from a site (larger being worst):
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Cat 22 Swing keel............................... 2.53
Mac 25............................................ 2.45
Mac 26 S & D (water ballast)................ 2.24
Mac 26 X (water ballast/Powersailer) .... 1.94
Mac 26 M (water ballast/Powersailer) .... 1.98
Seems that all of the water ballast boats are actually better than the Mac 25 you now own or even Watercolors Cat 22.
Now I don't intend for us to be out in these conditions, but.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlP6iXnk2s
And this guy went through a couple huricanes on the way to Panama in his 26S water ballast boat.....
http://lbucko.tripod.com/index.html
.... Now I'm say you should do this, but maybe these boats aren't all that 'un-safe' as some would try to have you believe.
Sorry to not give in so easy on this, but I hate it when someone trys to make their point using fear.
c ya,
Sum
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Cat 22 Swing keel............................... 2.53
Mac 25............................................ 2.45
Mac 26 S & D (water ballast)................ 2.24
Mac 26 X (water ballast/Powersailer) .... 1.94
Mac 26 M (water ballast/Powersailer) .... 1.98
Seems that all of the water ballast boats are actually better than the Mac 25 you now own or even Watercolors Cat 22.
Now I don't intend for us to be out in these conditions, but.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlP6iXnk2s
And this guy went through a couple huricanes on the way to Panama in his 26S water ballast boat.....
http://lbucko.tripod.com/index.html
.... Now I'm say you should do this, but maybe these boats aren't all that 'un-safe' as some would try to have you believe.
Sorry to not give in so easy on this, but I hate it when someone trys to make their point using fear.
c ya,
Sum
I'd be curious as to what the numbers for the three MacGregor models are with the water ballast tanks empty.
Why would you wonder about that as you don't sail with the tanks empty. You put the boat in the water and fill the tank. You sail and put the boat back on the trailer and empty the tank. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Are you also interested in capsize ratios for Hunters and other water ballast boats?
It seems the question is about as relevant as me asking you what the capsize ratio of your boat would be without the two outer hulls. If you don't like MacGregors just say so,
Sum
I would ask that because I am wondering how much the water ballast changes the stability of the boats. Yes, I'd like the numbers for the other water ballasted boats as well....but you didn't have them listed in your post, so I didn't mention them.
BTW, if you're inferring that I don't like MacGregors, that's a problem you have... I am not responsible for any conclusions you jump to.
I'd point out that it is very difficult to remove the outer hulls on my boat... forgetting to fill the water ballast tanks is far simpler and more likely to happen.
BTW, if you're inferring that I don't like MacGregors, that's a problem you have... I am not responsible for any conclusions you jump to.
I'd point out that it is very difficult to remove the outer hulls on my boat... forgetting to fill the water ballast tanks is far simpler and more likely to happen.
geez... I thought it was pretty obvious that the water ballast is not optional, but mandatory, while sailing. It's just part of rigging the boat up.. like stepping the mast and mounting the rudder. The water ballast feature makes it easier to launch and retrieve, plus less wear and tear on the tow vehicle.
You'd have to be incredibly stupid to sail without the boat rigged properly... thats part of the package.... Another reason to read the directions before operating.
By the way, water ballast is nothing new.... submarines rely on water ballast to trim out the boat. Allinghi's catamaran uses water ballast.
You'd have to be incredibly stupid to sail without the boat rigged properly... thats part of the package.... Another reason to read the directions before operating.
By the way, water ballast is nothing new.... submarines rely on water ballast to trim out the boat. Allinghi's catamaran uses water ballast.
One thing Ive always thought about water ballast saiboats is that they are not idiot proof. Ive capsized and turtled a 15 foot dingy before - it sucked... would really hate to do that in a 26 foot boat so I don't even think about not using the water ballast. For my inland lake sailing application, I like it because I can leave the swing centerboard free to clear underwater obstacles (and I hit something a few times every season) but not worry about the self righting characteristics of the boat or a heavy swing keel smacking the boat in a knock down. Ive also got stuck on a sand bar single handed.. dropped sails, pumped some ballast (manual air mattress pump) and got the boat loose. It makes trailering and launching/retrieving a lot simpler also.
The only down side for water ballast for me is because of the Zebra mussel inspections now in Colorado. If you have been to unknown waters, the tank must be filled with 140 degree water. There is no charge for this (yet) but it takes about 20 minutes and of course wasts a lot of energy. This aspect very much limits my trailering of the boat..
The original poster was looking at the Mac X power/hybrid model produced between about 1996 and 2003? Every Mac accident Ive seen has involved this model. In the hands of someone who respects the boat, I think they are safe. All the accidents I believe have involved using the boat without ballast.
In the later M model (produced now), they added about 300 pounds of fixed ballast in the boat (still also has the water ballast). It is also often operated without ballast for motoring only and I have never heard of any capsize accidents with the M model. The older D and S Mac water ballast models are not intended to be operated without water ballast, Ive never heard of any capsize accidents with these.
Lots of people really like the X model - even preferring it over all the other models.. you just have to have a little extra respect for the single safety issue.
The only down side for water ballast for me is because of the Zebra mussel inspections now in Colorado. If you have been to unknown waters, the tank must be filled with 140 degree water. There is no charge for this (yet) but it takes about 20 minutes and of course wasts a lot of energy. This aspect very much limits my trailering of the boat..
The original poster was looking at the Mac X power/hybrid model produced between about 1996 and 2003? Every Mac accident Ive seen has involved this model. In the hands of someone who respects the boat, I think they are safe. All the accidents I believe have involved using the boat without ballast.
In the later M model (produced now), they added about 300 pounds of fixed ballast in the boat (still also has the water ballast). It is also often operated without ballast for motoring only and I have never heard of any capsize accidents with the M model. The older D and S Mac water ballast models are not intended to be operated without water ballast, Ive never heard of any capsize accidents with these.
Lots of people really like the X model - even preferring it over all the other models.. you just have to have a little extra respect for the single safety issue.
I never would have guessed
I never would have guessed that without water a Mac would flip over! Sticker or no sticker, it's concerning. Granted the boat carried more people than recommended, but it's a 26' boat. I've seen plenty of boats that size with 11 people aboard and never thought much about it. It just kind of goes against the norm of what most people consider unsafe. If I owned a Mac, I would be very concerned about allowing anyone to borrow it. Sorry, I don't mean to bash Macs, I always thought they were pretty decent boats. That boat should have stickers everywhere, including one on the dock.
JerryA
I never would have guessed that without water a Mac would flip over! Sticker or no sticker, it's concerning. Granted the boat carried more people than recommended, but it's a 26' boat. I've seen plenty of boats that size with 11 people aboard and never thought much about it. It just kind of goes against the norm of what most people consider unsafe. If I owned a Mac, I would be very concerned about allowing anyone to borrow it. Sorry, I don't mean to bash Macs, I always thought they were pretty decent boats. That boat should have stickers everywhere, including one on the dock.
JerryA
You probably don't mean to bash them, but for someone that is looking at maybe buying a MacGregor that is how it comes across. If you have a problem with that particular model then please state that. Direct your comments to the Mac 26X produced between 1995 and 2003. A statement like you made seems to imply to me that you 'though they', all Mac/Ventures built, were pretty decent boats, but now you maybe don't know.
MacGregor/Ventures were made produced from the 70's to the present in sizes 17',19', 21', different 22' models, 25' with all of these being non-water ballast. Then you have next the 26D followed by the 26S (the classics that are water ballast, but not powersailers) they were built up to '95 when the X was introduced and then as Walt mentioned the M followed the X and has some fixed ballast.
The X and M are definitely hybrid boats and can't really be compared directly to either a 26 foot fixed ballast sailboat of the same length or a 26 foot power boat of the same length. How many 26 foot power boats that will carry 11 people have a mast sticking 30 feet in the air? These boats were built to fill a niche market and there are thousands of very happy owners of these boats. They didn't fill the needs that we wanted, so we didn't buy one. I will agree that you need to follow proper operating procedures in sailing and/or motoring these two models, especially the X. To not do so is irresponsible and could end up in a tragedy as the article points out. Also given the facts, no I would not casually lend one of these boats out.
One thing strange is I can find plenty of negative comments and miss-information about the Mac water ballast boats coming from people who do not understand the difference between the different models that have been produced. They probably have also never sailed on one. I can't find any negative comments from past or present owners of these boats.
When we were looking for a sailboat to fill "our" needs I read all of the Mac bashing on the Internet and it almost deterred us from buying one. Then I began to realize it wasn't coming from past or present owners it was coming mainly from people who had no idea what they were talking about. They were just jumping on the bandwagon of miss-information spread about these boats, but people who don't believe them to be a "real" sailboat. Well after owning ours for a year and sailing in all kinds of situations for our needs we are very happy, feel safe, and would buy exactly the same boat again without any hesitation.
Right now there might be someone like us out there reading this thread like I was a year ago trying to decide if a Mac might be the right boat for them and I want them to know there are two sides to this story,
Sum
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WOW....it just goes to show that the most dangerous thing we can face when we wake up in the morning is........ourselves. Common sense prevails. I have met many people that had none. It certainly isn't going to stop me from enjoying a passion, which I think everyone has on this forum.....lest we forget. If someone has a choice of A or B, statistics show(remember that class....ugh)that someone will choose B with a tragic outcome. In aviation, for example, year after year, dozens forget to do something that is detrimental to flight. Whether it is to carry enough fuel, lower the landing gear, or fly into conditions beyond a pilot's or plane's capability. Reasons are numerous. Distraction is probably the worst culprit. Get out of a routine and bad things can happen. Now, how is that the manufacturers fault? If MacGregor had built a boat will no balast capability, then yes, bad design. Training and knowledge are used to overcome those instances. Even extensive certification of pleasure boat operation won't cure this. We are human, and it WILL happen. The goal is to mitigate the "happening". Our society has removed most of the responsibility from the individual, and placed it on the ones with the deeper pockets. That WILL be ruinous to the american way in the long run. This subject hits a raw nerve with me, otherwise I would have declined to comment. Take nothing for granted.
The nanny mode of governance has a lot to do with this as well.... Common sense has fallen by the wayside, and a lot of people don't have any at all any more... Laws requiring warning labels on cups of hot coffee (contents may be hot) and other such idiocy is a result of this.
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