Sold my O'Day 22, looking for another boat before withdrawal sends me into a severe depression. I was checking reviews on H22-25 boats of various ventage, and most have a capsize screen over 2.0 ... the magic number above which you can go over, I think. Any comments on the righting abilities you've expereinced on your 23.5's or 25.5's? Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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Cap Ratio
I did some recent research on three boats. This is what I got: Catalina 250 Cap Ratio:2.05 Hunter 260 Cap Ratio:2.07 Colgate 26 Cap Ratio:2.47 I have quite a bit other comparison stuff on these three boats if you are interested.
I did some recent research on three boats. This is what I got: Catalina 250 Cap Ratio:2.05 Hunter 260 Cap Ratio:2.07 Colgate 26 Cap Ratio:2.47 I have quite a bit other comparison stuff on these three boats if you are interested.
I have broached the boat and buried the
rail but have not cpasized my Hunter 23.5 ('93). I do not know about its capsize number but can tell you that the 23.5 is a water balast swing keel boat with a tendency to be a bit tender in the wind. She sail fine in winds to 10-12 knots, but above that you have to seriously consider reefing, furling the jib and lastly, motoring home. I've had her on the ocean but sail mostly in the bay. She's got a high freeboard which tends to intensify the feeling of heeling. Read the owners comments about therer boats on this web site. Good Luck Hayden
rail but have not cpasized my Hunter 23.5 ('93). I do not know about its capsize number but can tell you that the 23.5 is a water balast swing keel boat with a tendency to be a bit tender in the wind. She sail fine in winds to 10-12 knots, but above that you have to seriously consider reefing, furling the jib and lastly, motoring home. I've had her on the ocean but sail mostly in the bay. She's got a high freeboard which tends to intensify the feeling of heeling. Read the owners comments about therer boats on this web site. Good Luck Hayden
Too literal
You are putting too much faith in these numbers. They are theory and do not take into account many variations in hull design etc. Look at it this way, there is no guarantee period. If you never capsized your O'Day, you will not be at any greater risk with boats you mentioned if you sail within the same parameters as you do now.
You are putting too much faith in these numbers. They are theory and do not take into account many variations in hull design etc. Look at it this way, there is no guarantee period. If you never capsized your O'Day, you will not be at any greater risk with boats you mentioned if you sail within the same parameters as you do now.
25.5 Capsize Screen
I agree with Jeff. However, the 25.5 capsize screen is 2.18. However, we have had her in 7-foot swells and 30+ knot winds and she has performed well.
I agree with Jeff. However, the 25.5 capsize screen is 2.18. However, we have had her in 7-foot swells and 30+ knot winds and she has performed well.
Capsize Screen
Invented after the loss of boats and life in a race between Ireland, and Britain, the capsize screen is a reasonable index of a boats ability to recover from a 180 degree capsize. This can only be driven by breaking waves around the height of the boat's beam. It has almost nothing to do with initial stability (stiffness) or even with extreme conditions caused by wind. All of the boats mentioned in this thread should easily recover from a knockdown (90 degree roll) caused by a gust, or linear wind burst. Because waves take time and fetch to build up, a coastal cruiser has time to get to port before being caught by the 9 foot breakers that would endanger the boat. Although the capsize screen does tell us what the designer has in mind, I question its relevance in the size use you seem to intend. The recent designs in the 24-26 foot range focus on roominess, trailorability (using water ballast), ease of handling, and comfort at anchor. They are good boats, and will take care of you in a coastal or lake cruising environment. If you really intend to go blue water cruising then the 74-84 Hunter 25 by Cherubini is a good design, as is the Catalina 25 of the same vintage. David Lady Lillie
Invented after the loss of boats and life in a race between Ireland, and Britain, the capsize screen is a reasonable index of a boats ability to recover from a 180 degree capsize. This can only be driven by breaking waves around the height of the boat's beam. It has almost nothing to do with initial stability (stiffness) or even with extreme conditions caused by wind. All of the boats mentioned in this thread should easily recover from a knockdown (90 degree roll) caused by a gust, or linear wind burst. Because waves take time and fetch to build up, a coastal cruiser has time to get to port before being caught by the 9 foot breakers that would endanger the boat. Although the capsize screen does tell us what the designer has in mind, I question its relevance in the size use you seem to intend. The recent designs in the 24-26 foot range focus on roominess, trailorability (using water ballast), ease of handling, and comfort at anchor. They are good boats, and will take care of you in a coastal or lake cruising environment. If you really intend to go blue water cruising then the 74-84 Hunter 25 by Cherubini is a good design, as is the Catalina 25 of the same vintage. David Lady Lillie
I'd agree.
Tom: I would have to agree. What do you think that the real difference between a 1.98 and a 2.02 capsize screen. OH, about .04. But do really think that you would even notice the difference? I really doubt it. If you are sailing on inland waters I would worry about it at all.
Tom: I would have to agree. What do you think that the real difference between a 1.98 and a 2.02 capsize screen. OH, about .04. But do really think that you would even notice the difference? I really doubt it. If you are sailing on inland waters I would worry about it at all.
Probably "never" happen
I'm sure 99.999% of people with yachts this size will never face conditions that result in rolling over. I mean I have had the 260 out in "big" seas. With the sails down below and carefull motoring she's as safe as safe. Steady as she goes!
I'm sure 99.999% of people with yachts this size will never face conditions that result in rolling over. I mean I have had the 260 out in "big" seas. With the sails down below and carefull motoring she's as safe as safe. Steady as she goes!
Now You've Got Me Nervous
Gee Whiz .... all this talk about capsizing !! I read that the capsize screen for my 1986 H23 is 2.37. Is that number suggesting its quite able to go over ?? Does anyone know just what would it take to capsize an H23 ??
Gee Whiz .... all this talk about capsizing !! I read that the capsize screen for my 1986 H23 is 2.37. Is that number suggesting its quite able to go over ?? Does anyone know just what would it take to capsize an H23 ??
John, don't be nervous
Having sailed my h23 in some stiff winds, the worst that has happened was, one time, I got my rear end wet - green water over the rail and into the cockpit. We had been racing in strong spring winds, beating to windward with a 150 gennie and our main unreefed, when the wind suddenly veered. I went from riding high on the rail to having water flowing past my hips. I popped the mainsheet loose, the boat immediatly stood up and the water drained out. The only aftermath was the cockpit was freshly rinsed, and I felt damper than I wanted to. We have a game the kids like: they sit on the leeward rail while I pull the traveler to windward so the water comes up on the side deck where they're sitting. We've never had a problem. I was told by the local dealer when I bought the boat that a owner who bought his the previous year had tried to tip it. The most he could do was get water up to the bottom of his windows. I haven't managed that much yet. Capsize is not a concern for me unless you are in conditions that would chanllenge the survival of any boat. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Having sailed my h23 in some stiff winds, the worst that has happened was, one time, I got my rear end wet - green water over the rail and into the cockpit. We had been racing in strong spring winds, beating to windward with a 150 gennie and our main unreefed, when the wind suddenly veered. I went from riding high on the rail to having water flowing past my hips. I popped the mainsheet loose, the boat immediatly stood up and the water drained out. The only aftermath was the cockpit was freshly rinsed, and I felt damper than I wanted to. We have a game the kids like: they sit on the leeward rail while I pull the traveler to windward so the water comes up on the side deck where they're sitting. We've never had a problem. I was told by the local dealer when I bought the boat that a owner who bought his the previous year had tried to tip it. The most he could do was get water up to the bottom of his windows. I haven't managed that much yet. Capsize is not a concern for me unless you are in conditions that would chanllenge the survival of any boat. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Jims correct
The only thing that is going to roll these yachts over is a wave. And you shouldn't be out in huge seas anyway. I've had the 260 with the mast almost in the water. And of course what happens is the air spills out of the sail and up she comes again. Mind you "if" I was over this far in a big swell I might expect that there may be a chance of rolling over but I think not!
The only thing that is going to roll these yachts over is a wave. And you shouldn't be out in huge seas anyway. I've had the 260 with the mast almost in the water. And of course what happens is the air spills out of the sail and up she comes again. Mind you "if" I was over this far in a big swell I might expect that there may be a chance of rolling over but I think not!
Many thanks to Jim and Mark
Thanks for the great notes. I feel better now. I operate on an inland lake in the Deep South. I never see too much breeze, save the rare 20 kt day. In particular, its reassuring to hear from an H23 which sails in a lot tougher conditions than I do. I, too, have kids who like to drag their legs in the leeward water. I had done so assuring my more cautious wife there was no chance the boat could go over. Thanks again to both of you for the notes.
Thanks for the great notes. I feel better now. I operate on an inland lake in the Deep South. I never see too much breeze, save the rare 20 kt day. In particular, its reassuring to hear from an H23 which sails in a lot tougher conditions than I do. I, too, have kids who like to drag their legs in the leeward water. I had done so assuring my more cautious wife there was no chance the boat could go over. Thanks again to both of you for the notes.
my thanks also
My thanks also. I asked the original question because I thought capsize screen had to do with the righting moment at 90 degrees, not 180 degrees. My apologies for an inadequately phrased question. I sold my O'Day 22 because the sailing I was either doing or wanted to do was beyond her. She was great for Lake Carlyle, but my future sailing plans include much bigger waters (KY lake, gulf, mississippi river), and I want a more able boat, though not necessarily much bigger. What I was really looking for here were the comments many of you made ... that these boats are able, that they'll come up from a knockdown, etc. Again, thank you. I was looking at an H25.5. In a 25 foot boat, I'll work REAL hard to stay out of 9-ft breaking waves!!!! That leads me to one comment I want to make. Somewhere in this thread was the suggestion that 9 ft breaking waves take time to build, thus allowing time to get to port. I've seen them build that big on Lake Michigan in an hour or so. That's not enough time to get in. In addition, you can get waves like that very quickly around an inlet. So my conclusion is that, while capsize screen is NOT the most critical thing to look at in a small coastal crusier, it's still something to keep under consideration. Thanks again, Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
My thanks also. I asked the original question because I thought capsize screen had to do with the righting moment at 90 degrees, not 180 degrees. My apologies for an inadequately phrased question. I sold my O'Day 22 because the sailing I was either doing or wanted to do was beyond her. She was great for Lake Carlyle, but my future sailing plans include much bigger waters (KY lake, gulf, mississippi river), and I want a more able boat, though not necessarily much bigger. What I was really looking for here were the comments many of you made ... that these boats are able, that they'll come up from a knockdown, etc. Again, thank you. I was looking at an H25.5. In a 25 foot boat, I'll work REAL hard to stay out of 9-ft breaking waves!!!! That leads me to one comment I want to make. Somewhere in this thread was the suggestion that 9 ft breaking waves take time to build, thus allowing time to get to port. I've seen them build that big on Lake Michigan in an hour or so. That's not enough time to get in. In addition, you can get waves like that very quickly around an inlet. So my conclusion is that, while capsize screen is NOT the most critical thing to look at in a small coastal crusier, it's still something to keep under consideration. Thanks again, Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Getting it up again
I've had my H23.5 for two seasons now. Last year I called Hunter to ask if this boat would right itself if knocked over 90 degress. The fellow said that if the sail is right in/on the water, you might have to release the mainsheet to allow it to right itself. Put another way (my words now), if you're ever knocked down and the boat _doesn't_ come back up, try releasing the mainsheet. I imagine this would happen only if the main was trimmed in quite tightly to begin with.
I've had my H23.5 for two seasons now. Last year I called Hunter to ask if this boat would right itself if knocked over 90 degress. The fellow said that if the sail is right in/on the water, you might have to release the mainsheet to allow it to right itself. Put another way (my words now), if you're ever knocked down and the boat _doesn't_ come back up, try releasing the mainsheet. I imagine this would happen only if the main was trimmed in quite tightly to begin with.
Talk to Terry
Terry is due back next week. Ask him about the 25s he has available at the West Access Marina brokerage. Or check their web site. IIRC those 25s have cap ratios < 2.
Terry is due back next week. Ask him about the 25s he has available at the West Access Marina brokerage. Or check their web site. IIRC those 25s have cap ratios < 2.
Big Waves
I've been in waves breaking over the bow and deck of my 23.5. I'd guess the small ones were 6 feet and the largest were 8 feet. I was in a wind against current situation and the waves went from 3 feet to tooo big very quickly. I was just able to get all sail down and start the motor in time to handle the situation well. I hope I won't have to do that again, but if the wind is against the current and it increases quickly, tha same thing will happen again. I can tell you one thing I'll never own a boat with a closed cockpit after seeing all that water just wash over my 23.5 and out the back.
I've been in waves breaking over the bow and deck of my 23.5. I'd guess the small ones were 6 feet and the largest were 8 feet. I was in a wind against current situation and the waves went from 3 feet to tooo big very quickly. I was just able to get all sail down and start the motor in time to handle the situation well. I hope I won't have to do that again, but if the wind is against the current and it increases quickly, tha same thing will happen again. I can tell you one thing I'll never own a boat with a closed cockpit after seeing all that water just wash over my 23.5 and out the back.
Will the battery and bilge pump work if
the cabin gets full of water? I don't know if a knockdown or big waves would ever fill the cabin to 18 inches or so, deep enough to cover the battery, but I've always wondered if the bilge pump would actually work in this case. Would salt or fresh water make a difference? Do people sail with the sea hood and door closed up to help keep the water out?
the cabin gets full of water? I don't know if a knockdown or big waves would ever fill the cabin to 18 inches or so, deep enough to cover the battery, but I've always wondered if the bilge pump would actually work in this case. Would salt or fresh water make a difference? Do people sail with the sea hood and door closed up to help keep the water out?
Close the hatch in heavy seas
When the wind and waves build up, it's wise to put one or more hatchboards in place. In gale winds or worse, the hatch should be shut unless someone is moving in or out of the cabin. Several of the knockdown stories I've heard on Lake Erie were caused by a gust in the 50 knot range arriving unannounced ahead of a storm line. The amount of water we would ship with the hatch open would depend how long we stayed down. (Remember that 90 degrees has the maximum righting moment - the weight of the keel is acting at it's farthest horizontal distance from the centerline of the hull.) A sail in the water can hold you down longer, so freeing the sheets is key. It would probably take longer than you think to take on 18 inches of water in this position. None of the stories I heard included so much water coming aboard - although all of them recounted the mayhem below from unsecured supplies and gear in the cabin. I think a submerged battery is unlikely to maintain a charge. But it is a _sail_ boat, after all. In that case, we would reef the sails, and sail back to the pier, or within hailing distance of help. This contingency plan works for any failure of the engine propulsion system. David Lady Lillie
When the wind and waves build up, it's wise to put one or more hatchboards in place. In gale winds or worse, the hatch should be shut unless someone is moving in or out of the cabin. Several of the knockdown stories I've heard on Lake Erie were caused by a gust in the 50 knot range arriving unannounced ahead of a storm line. The amount of water we would ship with the hatch open would depend how long we stayed down. (Remember that 90 degrees has the maximum righting moment - the weight of the keel is acting at it's farthest horizontal distance from the centerline of the hull.) A sail in the water can hold you down longer, so freeing the sheets is key. It would probably take longer than you think to take on 18 inches of water in this position. None of the stories I heard included so much water coming aboard - although all of them recounted the mayhem below from unsecured supplies and gear in the cabin. I think a submerged battery is unlikely to maintain a charge. But it is a _sail_ boat, after all. In that case, we would reef the sails, and sail back to the pier, or within hailing distance of help. This contingency plan works for any failure of the engine propulsion system. David Lady Lillie
further note on hatch boards
I used to race on Lake Michigan, and in big wind with following seas, the chute would get away from us, round us up, and broach the boat ... chute and main laying flat in the water, boat broadside to wind/waves at nearly a 90 degree knockdown, lots of water in the cockpit. Our rule when flying a chute in heavy conditions was always, "slides in, hatch closed, open only with permission, and then QUICKLY." Never got more than some minor trickles that way. There used to be some older boats that had companionways that were not on the centerline of the boat ... had some advantages in below deck layout. They did away with them for these same reasons. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
I used to race on Lake Michigan, and in big wind with following seas, the chute would get away from us, round us up, and broach the boat ... chute and main laying flat in the water, boat broadside to wind/waves at nearly a 90 degree knockdown, lots of water in the cockpit. Our rule when flying a chute in heavy conditions was always, "slides in, hatch closed, open only with permission, and then QUICKLY." Never got more than some minor trickles that way. There used to be some older boats that had companionways that were not on the centerline of the boat ... had some advantages in below deck layout. They did away with them for these same reasons. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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