Can't find the sweet spot

[YVRguy]

Ok, perhaps this falls under the heading of "you just need experience" but I'm hoping to better understand what I'm doing wrong.

When I take my Hunter 34 out in medium to heavy air - even just 15kts, I can't seem to get comfortable upwind. I often find that my sails luff heavily even when sheeted in a fair amount. When I try to sheet them in further I start heeling too much and get quite a bit of weather helm. When I let them out a bit they start to luff again. So in heavy air, this is what I live with... Either scary amounts of heel or a constantly luffing headsail. I generally live with the luffing because I'm scared of a knockdown or I'm concerned for the comfort of my guest(s). Any thoughts?

Secondly, in my bay, the wind normally blows directly in. If I want to get out of the bay I need to do several tacks. Some days this is no problem but on others it seems like I'm almost having to tack 180 degrees. The weird thing is, my windex indicates I'm close hauled in both directions. How can this be?? I've heard the expression that the wind is always on your nose wherever you have to go but in my case it seems true. :cussing:

Any thoughts/help is appreciated.

 

[finding41]

If my head sail luffs I'm pinching the wind. Maybe try falling off a few degrees. It works for me.

 

[YVRguy]

Pinching

If my head sail luffs I'm pinching the wind. Maybe try falling off a few degrees. It works for me.

I get what you mean but I am referring to a point of sail my boat can manage fine in lighter air.

 

[Scotty C-M]

Are you using your traveler? (lower it to reduce weather helm) One suggestion is to look at U-Tube sailing lessons. There are some really good ones on sail trim. I particularly like the ones by some French guy with a soft voice - I'll try to find it .... OK, look up sail trim and look for a guy named ppconsoultant. He's interesting, clear to understand and, I think, very good. Capt'n John is also very good. I know that Don Guillet has a sail trim guide that is very well known, and with a very good reputation. I just haven't had a chance to try it myself.

 

[kloudie1]

15 kts is time for a reef in the 34. The luff should be very tight and the outhaul should be very tight. The jib should be small like a 110.. the jib halyard very tight.Jib cars set correctly.. Headstay should be tight enough to keep it from pulling off to leeward any appreciable amount.. As others have said use the traveler.. It may be that the sails are... uhhhh... past their prime and have too much draft depth?

 

[Indysailor]

Try putting the cunningham on, sail controls to flatten your sails, move the jib cars back to add twist to the headsail, use your traveler, then reef if it still feels like you're over powered. I suspect the answer is somewhere between getting more experience so that you are comfortable with the way your boat responds to more wind and learning how to make the right adjustments to help it behave better. My wife hands me the tiller when she feels uncomfortable, the only difference between us is that I sail our boat more and have gained a better feel for when it's overpowered. Heel, heel, heel, then it digs in at somewhere around 25 degrees as wind spills from the sails. If I can't get it to do that, then I heave to and reef. Secondly, a new main made a huge difference, in terms of our boat's reacts to stronger winds.
The wife, by the way, sails circles around me in our kids' sunfish, having grown up sailing her own Laser. It's funny, she seems full of angst at the tiller of our bigger boat, while I am one of the worlds worst dinghy sailors. She says the big boat feels too removed, whereas the sunfish provides constant (and abrupt!) feedback.

 

[RichH]

All good points .... here's some uncommon fine points to lessen heeling at the high wind ranges:
1. tighten the backstay to insure that the forestay is not sagging off to leeward.
When you develop increasing weather helm the first thing to do is look at the turbulence wake from the keel/rudder and if that wake is coming off the stern at a noticeable angle when beating, youre probably skidding off to leeward .... and the usual cause is a too loose forestay (backstay). A too loose forestay will cause 'cranky boat', cant point, and aggressive heeling.
2. Increased heeling can be due to pulling in the jib and main sheets too much / too tight which causes the leeches to hook-up-to-weather. Watch carefully that on the mainsail that the aft end of top and second from the top battens are NOT pointing 'above' the centerline of the boat. If you pull in too tight on the jib sheets the leech will also hook up to weather .... and CLOSE the slot; the 'slot distance' should be more open in the higher wind ranges than when normal sailing. If the slot open distance is 'choked' (too close) you will be constantly luffing (backwinding) the mainsail and the boat will heel aggressively.
Ditto again with a too loose forestay as such will naturally 'set' / shape the jib sail with a hooked-up leech shape.
Here's how to accurately set backstay tension: http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf
..... but dont over-do the jib sheet tension or youll get the same effect as a too loose forestay.
If the main is 'hooked-up', as others have stated, more cunningham tension, more halyard tension, less mainsheet tension to correct a 'hooked up' mainsail leech.

Sailing angles.
The second part depends on the current in your channel. If the current is on the nose you will (by the mathematics of vectors and 'relativity') be heading at a much more open sailing angle against the wind. Ie. a 1 knot on the nose current velocity onto a boat sailing at 5 knots is a 20% reduction in forward speed ... and your resultant sailing angle will also be 20% 'off' on each tack, even that 'everything looks good'. Indeed with large current on the nose when beating instead of, say, 90° tacking angles you may be at 120° or more ... all depending on 'relativity' generated by the flow and speed of the oncoming current.

 

[YVRguy]

1. tighten the backstay to insure that the forestay is not sagging off to leeward.

I don't have an adjustable backstay

Thanks for the detailed response. Lots to chew on here.

 

[YVRguy]

It may be that the sails are... uhhhh... past their prime and have too much draft depth?

This is entirely possible. I'm not really sure how to evaluate my sails but I don't think they are in prime condition. With that said, I'm sure my problems are mostly in my technique. Thanks to you and the others for lots of great info.

To all: YES I do use my traveller

Unfortunately the slots in my dodger aren't high enough to allow me to unlock it by just jerking upwards on the line like you are supposed to do. Whoever is adjusting the traveller has to either stick their finger through the slot or unzip that portion and reach around to the front of the dodger to unlock it. Someone here suggested I mount the clasps behind the dodger for easier locking/unlocking and I fully intend to do that.

 

[kloudie1]

Doug, is your compression post and support beam OK?? My 34 behaved like that when the mast support beam had gotten "spongy" which would allow the headstay to sag under load, especially going, or attempting to go to winward..
Rich's reply about the current is great.. when that happens, it is time to wake Mr. Yanmar.

 

[Don Guillette]

YVRguy: On both your topics, here's the problem I (we - RichH, Joe from San Diego, Stu J and others) run into during during phone conversations, discussions on the dock with dock neighbors and on the sail trim forum -- we just don't get enough info to give an informed solution and we end up guessing. So it's not "lack of experience", it's lack of infomation.

Here's what I mean: Sailing in 10 to 15 knots closehauled ALL the setting for your mainsail sail trim controls (there are 13 of them) must be in unison or they end up working against each other. Here are the 13 - traveler, mainsheet, halyard (cunningham),outhaul, boom vang, draft depth, draft position, telltales, mast bend, batten position, leechline, slot & twist, and lastly crew position. On the jib, there are 4 and they are halyard, fairlead position, sail position off the spreaders and headstay sag. Additionally, on a masthead rig, the mainsail should always mirror the jib -- even if the jib setup is crappy you should be consistent because sailors around you will think you know what you're doing.

My suggestion is to find a sailor in your area who knows what he's looking at and ask him to sail with you. So how do you find this guy? It's easy -- ask him to explain the difference between draft position and twist and ask him to indicate the settings for say the traveler, outhaul and fairleads in 10 to 12 knots closehauled. If he knows the answers off the top of his head, and they make sense, become his friend!!