Can Racing Improve Your Sail Trim Skills?

Stu Jackson · Jul 29, 2016

Don Guillette said:
the CHART tells you WHAT to do & the Book tells you WHY you're making a particular sail trim adjustment because the WHY is everything

That's the real answer. Don's stuff is the most excellent material I have ever read on the subject, and I've read most all of them over the past 50 years. Clear, concise and meaningful.

This should be the starting point for anyone.

Then go practice.

I, too, wrote an article for Mainsheet magazine, back in 1999, soon after we got our boat. It was called "The C34 National Regatta - What It's Like from the Back of the Pack." Seven years later we won the Cruising Division.

Seven years of racing every month, 12 months a year, one design class.

Rarely will any successful racer teach you ANYTHING.

Think about it --- would Dale Earnhardt teach you how to drive a car? I doubt it.

YOU, and only YOU, can pick up Don's book, equip your boat with the suitable equipment, and then go out and sail. Practice, practice, practice. It's like docking.

But you have to know WHAT, and with Don's help, the WHY of what you're doing.

Jackdaw · Jul 31, 2016

Stu,
I gotta totally disagree with you.. I train up people to be better racers as a basic part of my program. And I know many others that do as well.

And they are much better much faster. You learn things that you simply would not find in a book. Not just technique, but mindset.

It's really irreplaceable.

Stu Jackson · Jul 31, 2016

Jack, I have to totally agree with you. Could you comment, perhap, on how many other racing skippers are willing and can actually perform the teaching that you do so well? For instance, your ability to write and to help others shines through on all of your posts on this forum. I am sure that translates to your boat. I'm just not sure how many others can do what you do so well. Building the knowledge of individuals and building a team on a boat may be a pretty rare trait.

Jackdaw · Jul 31, 2016

Stu,

With the exception of professional or near professional teams, I would assume that every skipper would have a vested interest in helping his or her crew get better. And for sure, a quality crew is an investment.

But the ability to do that would come down to two fundamental capabilities.

The first would be a deep enough technical understanding of Sailboat dynamics and trim, deep enough to actually add value to someone else's knowledge set. I suppose not everyone that races has that.

The second and perhaps most critical would be the ability to actually instruct. It's never enough to know something - the ability to instruct someone else and it is a completely separate thing. And to do so during the dynamics of a race or practice section is even more of a challenge. In particular when you have a full time job on the boat.

If I can when I coach on other boats, I like to have the role of 'speed boss' on the boat, and nothing else except maybe tactics. Allows more dedicated time. On BlueJ I drive and work with the team. So it's more of a compromise.

On BlueJ we always look for smarts in new crew members. No dummies. If you're dedicated and smart, you'll work out fine.

So we are always learning. And while I coach sailboat racing teams, we always attend (as a boat) training sessions with guest coaches at WYC. Always learning.

Jackdaw · Aug 1, 2016

Don Guillette said:
Jackdaw/Joe from San Diego & a few others: I was thinking of you guys when I started this thread. I didn't know the type of response I'd get and am happy with the result so far.

I've been writing a series of sail trim articles for the Catalina Owners Mainsheet Magazine and I'm considering this subject for my next article. The purpose of my articles is to help mates become better sailors and get more fun and enjoyment out of their boats. In other words, sailing them as opposed to maintaining them even though maintaining them is fun also. The bottom line is I really hate for folks to have to go through what I went through in order to learn how to sail a silly sailboat and any way I can help them make the process easier is what I'm about.

Do you guys have any thoughts on the subject that I could include in the article -- I intend to indicate the source of the article as a sailboatownners.com sail trim forum topic and I'll mention your names, and any others, as the reference source.

Some somewhat random thoughts...

First why does racing help? Racing helps because racing is about making the boat go fast. And that means sailing (trimming) better than the boat next to you. This difference is in the details that can be missed when you are just cruising..... Maybe 4.6 knots feels fast and you're in great trim. But if the same boat next you is doing 5.1 then they are out-sailing you; they are out-TRIMMING you, and you see the effects of that as they walk away.

That means great trim is in the detail, and focus. Racing shows you that.

And it's best learned from people who KNOW, and can teach you my EXAMPLE. I'm sorry but there is NO WAY you can learn this from a book. You might get 80%. But you'll get beat by every boat that trims at 81%+.

The trick is finding the right learning boat or club. As already discussed, this means finding a boat that works on training in crew.... A process that requires commitment from BOTH sides. I'm willing to work new new crew every year; but I do expect a level of comment from them that matches mine.

And be willing to crew. Very few good racers will be willing to sail on your boat more than once.... That really is not much fun for a good racer. You'll need to sail with others. Many clubs will have programs or processes to introduce new crew to prospective skippers and boats. Be honest about your ability; experience, and commitment level, and you will be matched with a good boat that needs your help. And will help you learn in return.

pateco · Aug 1, 2016

Don Guillette said:
Your jib is too small. I think a 135 or bigger sail with a low cut would improve your performance.

Don,
Thanks for the reply. I agree, that the jib is too small. I need to find dimensions for a 135 , and start shopping the used sail lofts. Brand new sails are not in my budget

Don Guillette said:
Also, if you're going to continue racing, you should consider a Garhauer adjustable fairlead system, which will enable your crew to dial in 100% efficiency from your jib. It looks to me, with my tired old eyes, that your jib is "twisted off". In other words, only the bottom 1/3 is driving the boat while the top 2/3 is spilling air (power).

She already has nice long fairlead tracks. So, move the car forward?

SailorTom · Aug 1, 2016

I've been sailing on/off for about 40 years. I've crewed on several race boats(PHRF), but last year I had the good fortune to join a winning boat in one-design at a very active club(LESC) in FL. I truly believe I learned more in the last year then the prior 39. Not seamanship but sailing. With a captain who was willing to talk and winning just helped to inspire me to learn more on my own and try to provide useful insights/feedback.
In the end I think the biggest key is racing in One-Design, PHRF always has a built in excuse for poor performance.

Cayennita · Aug 1, 2016

Don Guillette said:
danstanford: Thank you for your post. Actually, I'm interested in every forum lister's opinion because that's what make this forum great and there's none like it on the net. Jackdaw, Joe from San Diego, Stu J, RichH (I wonder what happened to him as I haven't heard from him for a long time) and a few others have been contributors for a long time so I know them. Ironically, I've never met them but I'd sure like to because i feel like I know them. When i describe my products to sailors I indicate the CHART tells you WHAT to do & the Book tells you WHY you're making a particular sail trim adjustment because the WHY is everything otherwise a mate is just guessing at the adjustment.

When I first started racing, I was lucky enough to get on a brand new 1971 27 foot Morgan. The owner was a very good driver and trimer. He needed someone fot the traveler. I had no idea what to do but he explained that he only used one finger on the tiller. If I saw teo fingers then I was to ease the traveler until he went back to one finger and slowly bring it back up. He explained why as we raced. The genoa trimer and main trimer worked in unison. Explaining about keeping a parallet slot, used the concept of a biplane where both wings are parallel. We raced together for many years and eventually he taught the crew about flying spinnakers, etc. we won just about every race he entered. I did not drive until 4 years later. Eventually moving to Marblead and crewing and driving for another 6 years before buying my own boat. I used a different color line for everything. I eould bring non sailors and do some basic instructions and explained that I would tell them ehich line to pull or ease and how many inches and what it does.
I had a Seidelman 30 and in 1981 with 36 different crew members we won 38 out of 42 races in Marblehead. Today I have a Catalina 30 in St. Croix and still get podium finishes with some beginners. The point is that you can do well with pick up crew of you know what to do and explain it. I use the terminology of up wind controls and down wind controls. It is a way to remember what to adjust in both directions. Also as I am working the starting line I will userotate up or rotate down. Up wind if I am beyond my polars, I will ask the main trimmer to slow me down. It means a tighter main and I can go higher and improve my VMG.

LuzSD · Aug 1, 2016

Jackdaw said:
Some somewhat random thoughts...

First why does racing help? Racing helps because racing is about making the boat go fast. And that means sailing (trimming) better than the boat next to you. This difference is in the details that can be missed when you are just cruising..... Maybe 4.6 knots feels fast and you're in great trim. But if the same boat next you is doing 5.1 then they are out-sailing you; they are out-TRIMMING you, and you see the effects of that as they walk away.

That means great trim is in the detail, and focus. Racing shows you that.

And it's best learned from people who KNOW, and can teach you my EXAMPLE. I'm sorry but there is NO WAY you can learn this from a book. You might get 80%. But you'll get beat by every boat that trims at 81%+.

The trick is finding the right learning boat or club. As already discussed, this means finding a boat that works on training in crew.... A process that requires commitment from BOTH sides. I'm willing to work new new crew every year; but I do expect a level of comment from them that matches mine.

And be willing to crew. Very few good racers will be willing to sail on your boat more than once.... That really is not much fun for a good racer. You'll need to sail with others. Many clubs will have programs or processes to introduce new crew to prospective skippers and boats. Be honest about your ability; experience, and commitment level, and you will be matched with a good boat that needs your help. And will help you learn in return.

Wise wise comments and recommendations. You have so clearly nailed exactly what is key to crew that really love crewing and learning. We pay attention and can't understand chitchat while racing .. Not every boats cup of tea... But figuring out what we can do to get more power or sail smarter is such a blast. Thanks Jackdaw I am so impressed and thankful to read what we talk about all the time.

danstanford · Aug 2, 2016

Those 4 lessons was the best money I ever spent BUT my sail trim knowledge was still lacking because I didn't know the WHY of a lot of the stuff.
Thanks Don for this statement, I think it encapsulates what I was trying to say. Having thought about this a lot, for both sail trim and for one of my other great passions, the golf swing, I think we need broad concepts to really understand. In my experience true novices need some easily definable standards/rules to get them basically competent and carrying out the mission. To define the mission I would say safely sailing without being out of control and damaging sails or other equipment from bad settings, and therefore enjoying the experience.
Once they are sailing at a competent level then the concepts are much more easily understood. Even though I will always be learning about this, I quickly got what the various controls did once I understood what shape I was trying to get and what boat behavior I was striving for. Since you mentioned the outhaul, I have seen a couple of folks on my boat instinctively look to that control once they understood more draft equals more power. Once they see the power generator they can easily understand too much draft and how the outhaul can naturally flatten the sail. Nothing makes them look harder for little improvements like the view of a stern getting smaller.
I think racing makes the sailor better if they are working to the right ends with the right base knowledge, both of which best come from first a teacher then some real world experience using trial and error. If the skipper is so keen to win this race as opposed to investing in training the crew for the long haul, you know what will happen. Jackdaw listed one ingredient, brains, the other is interest.

Dan

LuzSD · Aug 2, 2016

So many wise comments and stimulating descriptions of how you accomplish the perfect crew! it's so satisfying when you find yourself in the right company and devastating when it's not. It's all so addictive.

Joe · Aug 2, 2016

pateco said:
Don,
Thanks for the reply. I agree, that the jib is too small. I need to find dimensions for a 135 , and start shopping the used sail lofts. Brand new sails are not in my budget
She already has nice long fairlead tracks. So, move the car forward?

Yes, move forward to close the leech, which removes twist. The jib leads are very important.... that's why don is suggesting a moveable system... but if that isn't in your budget.. you can still adjust them when the sheet isn't loaded. With properly placed telltales on your headsail you can watch when the sail luffs to determine whether the tells are breaking together. If the bottom tell breaks first... then you need more trim on the foot .... it's too full... so you move the car back a couple notches. The memory aid is "Bottom-Back"

If you have your pin holes numbered you can tell the crew where you want the car pegged. Make notes on this setting for various conditions.

If you feel the car needs moving right away while the sheet is under load.. you can tie off the clew to a second car or something close by like a stanchion base... while you quickly adjust the lead position.

Even for day sailing, having the proper lead position can enhance your sailing experience.

PS.... here are specs for a 135% genoa on your Hunter 31.
Source is www.thesailwarehouse.com
Luff 40.50 Leech 38.30 Foot 17.50 LP 16.50 (luff perpendicular)
Size is determined by dividing "LP" by "J" (boat's foredeck length)

Scott T-Bird · Aug 3, 2016

The real issue is commitment. If you think that you are going to learn something on the race course, you may only be partially right. You'll probably learn that you don't know enough and aren't skillful enough to be competitive and you'll learn that learning to sail during competition is not very effective. The commands are likely to be terse, and if you are inexperienced and crewing on a boat that is largely inexperienced, you are more likely to be learning techniques that are just wrong. Eventually, if you stick with this program, you (and the crew you're with) may slowly gain some skill, just through trial and error.
I think if you sail with an accomplished racer and crew on practice days, outside of competition, you are far more likely to gain knowledge and skill. The environment will be far more conducive to learning and improving when you aren't also dealing with the stress of competition. That's when you will have the time to learn the skills, not just try to keep up with your crewmates. Learning during the racing season is more likely a struggle just to keep your head above water.
But who has time for the practice sessions? Some people do, but it's difficult for a race skipper to coordinate those dates when the crew is available. The crew and the skipper have to be more committed to teaching, rather than just racing, than the average sailor.

pateco · Aug 3, 2016

Joe said:
Yes, move forward to close the leech, which removes twist. The jib leads are very important.... that's why don is suggesting a moveable system... but if that isn't in your budget.. you can still adjust them when the sheet isn't loaded. With properly placed telltales on your headsail you can watch when the sail luffs to determine whether the tells are breaking together. If the bottom tell breaks first... then you need more trim on the foot .... it's too full... so you move the car back a couple notches. The memory aid is "Bottom-Back"

Thanks Joe, that is what I thought.

Joe said:
PS.... here are specs for a 135% genoa on your Hunter 31.
Source is www.thesailwarehouse.com
Luff 40.50 Leech 38.30 Foot 17.50 LP 16.50 (luff perpendicular)
Size is determined by dividing "LP" by "J" (boat's foredeck length)

Excellent. I will start my search.

Stu Jackson · Aug 3, 2016

pateco said:
Excellent. I will start my search.

Chip, be careful. Here's how LP is measured. You can get a deck sweeper or a high clew with the very same LP. Shop wisely.

pateco · Aug 3, 2016

Stu Jackson said:
You can get a deck sweeper or a high clew with the very same LP. Shop wisely.

Thanks Stu,

I am going to look for something very similar to :

Joe said:
Luff 40.50 Leech 38.30 Foot 17.50 LP 16.50 (luff perpendicular) Size is determined by dividing "LP" by "J" (boat's foredeck length)

I understand that a shorter leach with a longer foot and same LP would raise the clew.

I am not finding a lot of options available used, this must be a popular sail size.

pateco · Aug 4, 2016

Don Guillette said:
Pateco: How about giving this web site -- (sailboatowners.com) a crack at your sail purchase?? If it wasn't for Phil & Bly providing this and other forums, all of which I think are the best on the internet, you wouldn't have figured out your problem and obtained the solutions.

Don,

I agree, and would love to buy new sails, but they are not in my budget at this time. If and when more boat bucks become available for these things, I will definitely give SBO a crack at the quote. These forums are awesome and greatly appreciated.

I am in contact with two people on the SBO classifieds section now regarding their used sails.
Does SBO have a used loft as well?