I am having great difficulty finding a satisfactory location for a holding tank for the aft head (port side) on a Bavaria 42. The boat came from the factory with no holding tanks. The forward head is on the starboard side, more than 12 feet from the aft head (cannot put a LectraSan midway between the two and empty into a single tank). A dealer told me that he installs the tank for this head in the cockpit locker, which is overhead the port aft berth, a few feet above water level. Does this sound reasonable to you? There is room under the forward berth for a very large holding tank, but I cannot even find enough room within 6 feet of the aft head for a LectraSan so that I could pump partially treated sewage the required long distance instead of raw sewage for that long distance. My purchase agreement stipulates that properly vented holding tanks will be installed. Thank you for your advice.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Yes, a holding tank can be above the waterline...
However, there should be a loop in the head discharge line that's higher than the tank, to prevent waste from running back toward the toilet. Don't even THINK of trying to connect two heads that are more than 6-8 feet from a tank to the same tank...there will always be waste standing in the hose. Your idea of putting a Lectra/San midway won't work...the Lectra/San discharges by overflowing...there's no pump in it. But even it would work, there's no advantage to storing treated waste...but there are disadvantages: if even a single bacteria survives, the little bugger will multiply, and the residual chlorine in the tank makes odor control much more difficult than it is for raw waste. My advice: If you're in "no discharge" waters, install separate holding tanks for the forward and aft toilets. If you're NOT in "no discharge" waters, install a Lectra/San that goes overboard on the most-used toilet and put a small holding tank on the other toilet for use in any "no discharge" harbors and marinas. If the aft toilet will be the most used, talk with Raritan about what's needed to put a Lectra/San a little further than 6' away from it.
However, there should be a loop in the head discharge line that's higher than the tank, to prevent waste from running back toward the toilet. Don't even THINK of trying to connect two heads that are more than 6-8 feet from a tank to the same tank...there will always be waste standing in the hose. Your idea of putting a Lectra/San midway won't work...the Lectra/San discharges by overflowing...there's no pump in it. But even it would work, there's no advantage to storing treated waste...but there are disadvantages: if even a single bacteria survives, the little bugger will multiply, and the residual chlorine in the tank makes odor control much more difficult than it is for raw waste. My advice: If you're in "no discharge" waters, install separate holding tanks for the forward and aft toilets. If you're NOT in "no discharge" waters, install a Lectra/San that goes overboard on the most-used toilet and put a small holding tank on the other toilet for use in any "no discharge" harbors and marinas. If the aft toilet will be the most used, talk with Raritan about what's needed to put a Lectra/San a little further than 6' away from it.
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Gary
Thank you for your advice
Yes, all of Long Island Sound and associated bays is a No Discharge Zone. That's why I'm struggling to get the aft head also discharging into a proper holding tank. Locating the tank properly for the forward head was much easier. Since locating the aft tank was becoming so difficult, I was thinking that considering using a LectraSan emptying into a distant holding tank might help me discover a solution. But I was forgetting that then I could not use KO in that tank downstream from the LectrSan. Thank you again for your advice and the wonderful service that you provide. I don't know much about MSDs, but what I know I learned from you. I also use KO and CP because of your advice.
Yes, all of Long Island Sound and associated bays is a No Discharge Zone. That's why I'm struggling to get the aft head also discharging into a proper holding tank. Locating the tank properly for the forward head was much easier. Since locating the aft tank was becoming so difficult, I was thinking that considering using a LectraSan emptying into a distant holding tank might help me discover a solution. But I was forgetting that then I could not use KO in that tank downstream from the LectrSan. Thank you again for your advice and the wonderful service that you provide. I don't know much about MSDs, but what I know I learned from you. I also use KO and CP because of your advice.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Uh-uh...Long Island Sound is NOT "no discharge"
The discharge of raw waste directly overboard from the toilet is illegal--it is in ALL US waters, but Type I and II MSDs (treatment devices...i.e. the Lectra/San) are legal for use in LI Sound and most of the surrounding bays. Because treatment devices are expensive and power hungry, they aren't an option for most boats. The only other option is a holding tank...which means that for the owners of most boats, ALL waters are de facto "no discharge," whether they've actually been designated as such or not. Many of 'em don't even know that treatment devices exist...THEY have to have a holding tank, so they just assume that everyone does...that their waters are "no discharge," and that leads to a lot misinformation. So check with the CG and the EPA just to be sure...but I'm already certain you'll find that you can use a Lectra/San on LI Sound.
The discharge of raw waste directly overboard from the toilet is illegal--it is in ALL US waters, but Type I and II MSDs (treatment devices...i.e. the Lectra/San) are legal for use in LI Sound and most of the surrounding bays. Because treatment devices are expensive and power hungry, they aren't an option for most boats. The only other option is a holding tank...which means that for the owners of most boats, ALL waters are de facto "no discharge," whether they've actually been designated as such or not. Many of 'em don't even know that treatment devices exist...THEY have to have a holding tank, so they just assume that everyone does...that their waters are "no discharge," and that leads to a lot misinformation. So check with the CG and the EPA just to be sure...but I'm already certain you'll find that you can use a Lectra/San on LI Sound.
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Tom
I can't believe you spent that much on a boat and
they don't have holding tanks !!!! I think the Bavaria's are nice boats. I did not know they didn't. Maybe its a european thing....they are pretty lacking in sewage handling in most of their city's from what I've seen. BTW, as Peggy said.. Any places I know of on Long Island Sound is not considered a "no-discharge" zone for TREATED devices Type I and II MSDs .i.e. the Lectra/San. The closest "no-discharge" zone I beleive is Rhode Island. I would keel haul people that do for raw waste in many of the beautiful harbors along the Sound. As for the the middle of the sound (especially on the Eastern part of the LI Sound) Where it is well over 3 miles from either Conn or Long Island NY, I am not sure what the rules are. Its really not 3 miles off shore, but its about as close as you can get from being there and there has to be a gazzillion gallons of "flushing" effect everyday with the tides flowing in and out of "the race". MAybe Peggy can comment
they don't have holding tanks !!!! I think the Bavaria's are nice boats. I did not know they didn't. Maybe its a european thing....they are pretty lacking in sewage handling in most of their city's from what I've seen. BTW, as Peggy said.. Any places I know of on Long Island Sound is not considered a "no-discharge" zone for TREATED devices Type I and II MSDs .i.e. the Lectra/San. The closest "no-discharge" zone I beleive is Rhode Island. I would keel haul people that do for raw waste in many of the beautiful harbors along the Sound. As for the the middle of the sound (especially on the Eastern part of the LI Sound) Where it is well over 3 miles from either Conn or Long Island NY, I am not sure what the rules are. Its really not 3 miles off shore, but its about as close as you can get from being there and there has to be a gazzillion gallons of "flushing" effect everyday with the tides flowing in and out of "the race". MAybe Peggy can comment
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
The Rules...
"As for the the middle of the sound (especially on the Eastern part of the LI Sound) Where it is well over 3 miles from either Conn or Long Island NY, I am not sure what the rules are." The Rules are quite clear: before you can flush *untreated* waste directly overboard or dump a tank, ya gotta be all the way offshore, at least 3 miles out to sea from the nearest point on the whole US coastline....not just 3 miles from the nearest shore in a sound, bay or lake. That makes it illegal to flush untreated waste from the toilet directly overboard or dump a tank anywhere in LI Sound, even if it's more than 3 miles to the nearest shore. You have to be at least 3 miles out in the Atlantic on the other side of Long Island.
"As for the the middle of the sound (especially on the Eastern part of the LI Sound) Where it is well over 3 miles from either Conn or Long Island NY, I am not sure what the rules are." The Rules are quite clear: before you can flush *untreated* waste directly overboard or dump a tank, ya gotta be all the way offshore, at least 3 miles out to sea from the nearest point on the whole US coastline....not just 3 miles from the nearest shore in a sound, bay or lake. That makes it illegal to flush untreated waste from the toilet directly overboard or dump a tank anywhere in LI Sound, even if it's more than 3 miles to the nearest shore. You have to be at least 3 miles out in the Atlantic on the other side of Long Island.
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Tom
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Gary
Wow! I guess I have been misinformed:
I know that I have read that all of L.I. Sound is a "No Discharge Zone," making Lectra/San illegal. I guess the source(s) I have seen were informal and not authoritative. How do I locate the authoritative source (CG, EPA)? Since I am planning a cruise to Newport in August, it seems that I will then be in a no discharge circumstance even if I am not while I am on L.I. Sound. It might be that the easiest location for the tank for the aft head is forward under the vee birth. I know that ideally the tank should be very near the head, but what is the longest distance from head to tank that is reasonable? Is the vee birth out of the question for the aft head? I will use the most non-porous, impervious MSD hose that I can find. Thank you again to all who have contributed to my education.
I know that I have read that all of L.I. Sound is a "No Discharge Zone," making Lectra/San illegal. I guess the source(s) I have seen were informal and not authoritative. How do I locate the authoritative source (CG, EPA)? Since I am planning a cruise to Newport in August, it seems that I will then be in a no discharge circumstance even if I am not while I am on L.I. Sound. It might be that the easiest location for the tank for the aft head is forward under the vee birth. I know that ideally the tank should be very near the head, but what is the longest distance from head to tank that is reasonable? Is the vee birth out of the question for the aft head? I will use the most non-porous, impervious MSD hose that I can find. Thank you again to all who have contributed to my education.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
10' is max distance from head to tank
That's 10 total feet of hose, not just measurement over the deck...and that's only if it's a relatively straight shot. For every bend--horizontal or vertical--subtract a foot. IMO, connecting the aft head to a tank under the v-berth is only asking for trouble--not only permeated hoses in record time, but clogs and other problems. Just running a hose that far would be a nightmare of bulkheads and other obstacles. The ONLY way to do it right is to install separate holding tanks for each toilet or install a tank on one, a Lectra/San on the other. That you're planning a cruise to RI doesn't rule out a Lectra/San, it only means you can't use it while you're there. But going forward to use the head that's connected to a tank for a few days isn't SO much of an inconvenience that it's worth giving up the rest of the time. The entire state of RI is "no discharge"...and it wouldn't be that hard to confuse Rhode Island with Long Island when trying to remember what is and isn't. But I suspect the real explanation is the perception that any waters in which it's illegal to flush the head directly overboard are "no discharge" in many boat owners' minds. Some even believe that "no discharge" includes gray water, which is NOT true.
That's 10 total feet of hose, not just measurement over the deck...and that's only if it's a relatively straight shot. For every bend--horizontal or vertical--subtract a foot. IMO, connecting the aft head to a tank under the v-berth is only asking for trouble--not only permeated hoses in record time, but clogs and other problems. Just running a hose that far would be a nightmare of bulkheads and other obstacles. The ONLY way to do it right is to install separate holding tanks for each toilet or install a tank on one, a Lectra/San on the other. That you're planning a cruise to RI doesn't rule out a Lectra/San, it only means you can't use it while you're there. But going forward to use the head that's connected to a tank for a few days isn't SO much of an inconvenience that it's worth giving up the rest of the time. The entire state of RI is "no discharge"...and it wouldn't be that hard to confuse Rhode Island with Long Island when trying to remember what is and isn't. But I suspect the real explanation is the perception that any waters in which it's illegal to flush the head directly overboard are "no discharge" in many boat owners' minds. Some even believe that "no discharge" includes gray water, which is NOT true.
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Chris
Gray water and "no discharge"
This is a very good article and I am learning a lot from it. As Tom said, the European ports are not as clean as they should/could be, I fully support. Being swedish by birth now living in Belgium, I know how it stinks in some harbours over here. Never the less, we are going cruising full time in a few years so of course the rules and regulation in your part of the world very much affect us. Now, in areas called "no discharge zones/areas" can treated waste be pumped out? Can you visually see "Treated waste" when you pump it overboard, or is it almost "clear" water? Excuse me for the stupid questions, I just need to know. Chris.
This is a very good article and I am learning a lot from it. As Tom said, the European ports are not as clean as they should/could be, I fully support. Being swedish by birth now living in Belgium, I know how it stinks in some harbours over here. Never the less, we are going cruising full time in a few years so of course the rules and regulation in your part of the world very much affect us. Now, in areas called "no discharge zones/areas" can treated waste be pumped out? Can you visually see "Treated waste" when you pump it overboard, or is it almost "clear" water? Excuse me for the stupid questions, I just need to know. Chris.
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