I heard on the news yesterday that a 25 foot sailboat overturned in 13 foot waves, with 4 aboard, and that it went down quickly! Never heard no more! Was everyone okay, just what happened?
- Status
link
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/19/BAG9U53JDU7.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/19/BAG9U53JDU7.DTL
Sad story
Read Chris' link. Very sad story. I wonder what the floatation sitation for the vessel was?
Read Chris' link. Very sad story. I wonder what the floatation sitation for the vessel was?
Makes you wonder...
what those guys were thinking. Ocean beach is know for having some pretty heavy surf action, what were they doing that close to shore, with the weather the way it's been this last week, (high winds, lots of rain)with no PFD's. And if it was heavy enough to be tethered to the boat, it seems that a PFD would have been a REALLY good idea. Hate to see any sailor lost at sea, but from the looks of it, this may have simply been a case of 'natural selection'.
what those guys were thinking. Ocean beach is know for having some pretty heavy surf action, what were they doing that close to shore, with the weather the way it's been this last week, (high winds, lots of rain)with no PFD's. And if it was heavy enough to be tethered to the boat, it seems that a PFD would have been a REALLY good idea. Hate to see any sailor lost at sea, but from the looks of it, this may have simply been a case of 'natural selection'.
What can we learn
From this tragedy. According to the link, the man who did not survive was tethered to the boat. I suppose if you are tethered and the boat goes down very fast there is not much you can do. Having an accessible knife might help provided you are conscious and oriented enough to cut yourself free and escape. I suppose that statistically you are better off tethered to the boat and wearing a good pfd but even with the pfd you go down with the boat if you cannot get free. I would not argue that you shoul untether when close to shore with a good pfd but in this case tethering might have cost a man his life. The best we can count on besides the judgment to stay out of trouble is the statistical probability of what is safer. Nevertheless, sometimes you can end up on the wrong side of the stats. What a shame.
From this tragedy. According to the link, the man who did not survive was tethered to the boat. I suppose if you are tethered and the boat goes down very fast there is not much you can do. Having an accessible knife might help provided you are conscious and oriented enough to cut yourself free and escape. I suppose that statistically you are better off tethered to the boat and wearing a good pfd but even with the pfd you go down with the boat if you cannot get free. I would not argue that you shoul untether when close to shore with a good pfd but in this case tethering might have cost a man his life. The best we can count on besides the judgment to stay out of trouble is the statistical probability of what is safer. Nevertheless, sometimes you can end up on the wrong side of the stats. What a shame.
Should not be there
Jeff is exactly correct. They should not have been aywhere near where they were. In fact, they probably should not have been outside the Golden Gate given the conditions. But assuming you did want to go outside the gate in those conditions, you would want to stay off the shoales on either side of the approach. Being off Ocean Beach puts them well to the wrong side of the shoales on the south side of the entrance. I think the seas wee running higher than 14 feet that day. Once those seas hit the shallows the waves get very steep, breaking and very close together. I'm pretty sure from the reports I saw, that these guys were clear into the surf line downwind of the stuff coming over these shoales. Regarding being tethered. It is good common sense to be so anytime you are outside the Golden Gate. I think, in this instance, the boat probably rolled and sunk so fast, he was unable to get loose of the tether. Several others on the boat, not tethered, were apparently rescued by shore based emergency personnel. That's right, they were so close to shore that land based divers were able to rescue them. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Jeff is exactly correct. They should not have been aywhere near where they were. In fact, they probably should not have been outside the Golden Gate given the conditions. But assuming you did want to go outside the gate in those conditions, you would want to stay off the shoales on either side of the approach. Being off Ocean Beach puts them well to the wrong side of the shoales on the south side of the entrance. I think the seas wee running higher than 14 feet that day. Once those seas hit the shallows the waves get very steep, breaking and very close together. I'm pretty sure from the reports I saw, that these guys were clear into the surf line downwind of the stuff coming over these shoales. Regarding being tethered. It is good common sense to be so anytime you are outside the Golden Gate. I think, in this instance, the boat probably rolled and sunk so fast, he was unable to get loose of the tether. Several others on the boat, not tethered, were apparently rescued by shore based emergency personnel. That's right, they were so close to shore that land based divers were able to rescue them. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
I wonder what type of boat?
More dtails will probably come out later. I am on the Gulf side of Florida. Its a different situation here for sailing than California. I don't recall any boats going down so quick or for that matter sinking after being blown over. I am sure it was a wave that swamped them. Regards.
More dtails will probably come out later. I am on the Gulf side of Florida. Its a different situation here for sailing than California. I don't recall any boats going down so quick or for that matter sinking after being blown over. I am sure it was a wave that swamped them. Regards.
Accident?
I have a little bit of trouble calling this an accident. To the extent that the Captain did not know of the issues, perhaps. But once he was where he was, any experienced sailor from around here would consider it predictable and perhaps the inevitable outcome. The boat probably did not get blown over or swamped. It most likely was rolled over and forced down by the wave. When they get that steep, breaking and close, it gets virtually impossible to keep the boat oriented back into the next wave when you are trying to slide off the back of the previous one. When I did my off shore sailing classes, the instructor let us know that venturing onto the shoales on either side of the entrance meant failure of the course. The concept was that if you thought that was an ok place to be you didn't understand the issues yet. I also think that some people get their idea of the ocean next to California from repeated exposure to Hollywood productions. I have relatives who on a first visit here want to go to the "beach" and swim. They usually want to know where the sun is and when did the water get so cold. This is northern California. If you charter a sailboat in southern California, you will be able to go out into the ocean. If you do the same in San Francisco, there is no one I know who will allow it unless you are Coastal qualified and the boat is off-shore equipped. The potential for these kind of conditions, even on nice days, are one of the reasons I get a little testy sometimes about instruction, testing, licensing, etc. But I don't want to start that discussion again. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
I have a little bit of trouble calling this an accident. To the extent that the Captain did not know of the issues, perhaps. But once he was where he was, any experienced sailor from around here would consider it predictable and perhaps the inevitable outcome. The boat probably did not get blown over or swamped. It most likely was rolled over and forced down by the wave. When they get that steep, breaking and close, it gets virtually impossible to keep the boat oriented back into the next wave when you are trying to slide off the back of the previous one. When I did my off shore sailing classes, the instructor let us know that venturing onto the shoales on either side of the entrance meant failure of the course. The concept was that if you thought that was an ok place to be you didn't understand the issues yet. I also think that some people get their idea of the ocean next to California from repeated exposure to Hollywood productions. I have relatives who on a first visit here want to go to the "beach" and swim. They usually want to know where the sun is and when did the water get so cold. This is northern California. If you charter a sailboat in southern California, you will be able to go out into the ocean. If you do the same in San Francisco, there is no one I know who will allow it unless you are Coastal qualified and the boat is off-shore equipped. The potential for these kind of conditions, even on nice days, are one of the reasons I get a little testy sometimes about instruction, testing, licensing, etc. But I don't want to start that discussion again. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
a lot of guessing
Hello, It sounds like many of you are condemning the captain and crew without knowing any of the details. Did the boat have a mechanical failure that resulted in it being where it was not supposed to be? Did the engine or steering break? Did the sails fail? Did the weather change suddenly? Did something happen to the crew BEFORE the accident that left them incapacitated? Until you know the details, I don't think you have the right to be 'blaming' people. Barry
Hello, It sounds like many of you are condemning the captain and crew without knowing any of the details. Did the boat have a mechanical failure that resulted in it being where it was not supposed to be? Did the engine or steering break? Did the sails fail? Did the weather change suddenly? Did something happen to the crew BEFORE the accident that left them incapacitated? Until you know the details, I don't think you have the right to be 'blaming' people. Barry
I agree 100% with Barry, I think he hit the nail on the head so to speak. But then again maybe Barry and I and a few others are not 'know-it-alls'
local knowledge
High surf advisories in this area have been posted since last weekend, and gale warnings had been in effect 48 hours ahead of time. That storm was no suprise. Local knowledge is to stay away from South Channel during the winter months. Period. The math here is pretty easy to work out: a 22-foot boat in 15-foot swells plus 8-foot wind waves during 30-knot sustained winds inside a notorious shoal area = disaster. And those guys weren't even wearing PFDs. It doesn't take a whole lot of guessing to conclude that those mariners were less than prudent.
High surf advisories in this area have been posted since last weekend, and gale warnings had been in effect 48 hours ahead of time. That storm was no suprise. Local knowledge is to stay away from South Channel during the winter months. Period. The math here is pretty easy to work out: a 22-foot boat in 15-foot swells plus 8-foot wind waves during 30-knot sustained winds inside a notorious shoal area = disaster. And those guys weren't even wearing PFDs. It doesn't take a whole lot of guessing to conclude that those mariners were less than prudent.
Yep, John, and the boat was only 20 feet not 22
A classic case of Darwinisms. That is the reason I never feel sorry for humans that put themselves in that position. My heart goes out to animals in distress. Humans should know the risk. And very few 22 year olds should be called Captain. Guys that age would still charge a machine gun nest.
A classic case of Darwinisms. That is the reason I never feel sorry for humans that put themselves in that position. My heart goes out to animals in distress. Humans should know the risk. And very few 22 year olds should be called Captain. Guys that age would still charge a machine gun nest.
I was definitely not a good idea being there.
The Father of the 22 YO, was in the boat and captain. They were coming in from Santa Barbera. It just gets sadder. I still want to know what kind of boat it was? There is only a few 20 footers that could be considered good enough for those waters.
The Father of the 22 YO, was in the boat and captain. They were coming in from Santa Barbera. It just gets sadder. I still want to know what kind of boat it was? There is only a few 20 footers that could be considered good enough for those waters.
I was definitely not a good idea being there.
The Father of the 22 YO, was in the boat and captain. They were coming in from Santa Barbera. It just gets sadder. I still want to know what kind of boat it was? There is only a few 20 footers that could be considered good enough for those waters.
The Father of the 22 YO, was in the boat and captain. They were coming in from Santa Barbera. It just gets sadder. I still want to know what kind of boat it was? There is only a few 20 footers that could be considered good enough for those waters.
Here is some more up to date info.
Sounds like very poor judgement and lack of knowledge to local conditions. http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2004/0204/Feb20/Feb20.html#anchor1085433
Sounds like very poor judgement and lack of knowledge to local conditions. http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2004/0204/Feb20/Feb20.html#anchor1085433
Tethers
Make sure you have the tether with the snap shackle & lanyard on your end and the clip on the other. West Marine switched to this type after that race where a crew member couldn't release or cut loose and was dragged along until he drowned.
Make sure you have the tether with the snap shackle & lanyard on your end and the clip on the other. West Marine switched to this type after that race where a crew member couldn't release or cut loose and was dragged along until he drowned.
Definitely not a 'know-it-all'
Don't really know what the local conditions are where you guys sail, but I can tell you that, regardless of any supposed equipment failures, Ocean Beach in febuary was NOT a prudent place to be, especially in a 20-25' boat a few hundred yards from shore. Purely suicidal. If they did suffer some sort of engine, rudder, mast etc. failure anywhere near the location where they went down, they should have immediately been on the radio calling the CG, shooting off flares, putting on life jackets, etc. This isn't a case of 'monday morning quarterbacking' or 'know-it-all'ism, but merely a few people who know the area where the incident occurred and can't figure out how anyone would let themselves be in such a situation. Even someone of limited intelligence and no sailing experience whatsoever could look out there and see that it was a really dumb thing to be doing. Once again, common sense doesn't seem to be all that common.
Don't really know what the local conditions are where you guys sail, but I can tell you that, regardless of any supposed equipment failures, Ocean Beach in febuary was NOT a prudent place to be, especially in a 20-25' boat a few hundred yards from shore. Purely suicidal. If they did suffer some sort of engine, rudder, mast etc. failure anywhere near the location where they went down, they should have immediately been on the radio calling the CG, shooting off flares, putting on life jackets, etc. This isn't a case of 'monday morning quarterbacking' or 'know-it-all'ism, but merely a few people who know the area where the incident occurred and can't figure out how anyone would let themselves be in such a situation. Even someone of limited intelligence and no sailing experience whatsoever could look out there and see that it was a really dumb thing to be doing. Once again, common sense doesn't seem to be all that common.
Common Sense? No such thing.
As I have said many times - there is no such thing as "common sense". Go ahead and prove otherwise. Cheers,
As I have said many times - there is no such thing as "common sense". Go ahead and prove otherwise. Cheers,
- Status