How are the cabintop handrails attached? My H30 has no visible fasteners on the headliner directly below the handrails. I am trying to kill some leaks that show up during a prolonged rain. I have re-bedded the chain plates and deck covers and am in the process of replacing all original portlights, which has helped tremendously. While replacing the portlights, I noticed that the cabintop appears to be a two piece shell with no core. I'm wondering if they might have attached the handrails to the top shell before mating the two? If that's true, water could migrate a long ways before finding an outlet, and I guess the only way to seal the handrails is to apply silicone around each attachment point on the cabintop. Not very elegant or permanent.
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Cherubini Handrail fastening and sealing
In reworking my 79 H33 I took off and rebedded all of the handrails. The bronze screws are fastened into plywood core sections immediately below the rail locations. The core should be continuous in the deck section either end grain balsa sheets or plywood. The plywood should have been evident when you took out your ports for replacement. (see attached photo). On the forward rails on my H33 there were several fasteners that were allowing water into the core. These leaking points manifested clearly in a radial cracking pattern around the screw hole, deteriorated lower end of the bronze screws and in a lack of purchase for the screw. This deck leaking was also associated with leakage of ports just below the defective connection. In reinstalling the rails, I drilled out the offending screw anchorage holes with a forstner bit down to sound material or to the underlying inner liner. In a couple of instances, the plywood liner was deteriorated to such extent that additional deteriorated material around the forstner hole was cut out with a chisel. This cavity was then filled with west system epoxy using one of the high strength thickeners. After the epoxy was set but still green, I preliminarily installed the rails that had the epoxy filled holes, ran a pilot hole through the new epoxy and put a new stainless screw down. Purpose of this was to thread the epoxy while still green since it tends to be brittle when fully set. When finally installing the rails, I used a wood screw countersink to make a conical recess on both the deck and the handrail at each screw hole location. Purpose of this was to to provide a thick glob of sealant around the fastener at this critical junction as well as provide some resiliency in future strains and movement of the handrail.
In reworking my 79 H33 I took off and rebedded all of the handrails. The bronze screws are fastened into plywood core sections immediately below the rail locations. The core should be continuous in the deck section either end grain balsa sheets or plywood. The plywood should have been evident when you took out your ports for replacement. (see attached photo). On the forward rails on my H33 there were several fasteners that were allowing water into the core. These leaking points manifested clearly in a radial cracking pattern around the screw hole, deteriorated lower end of the bronze screws and in a lack of purchase for the screw. This deck leaking was also associated with leakage of ports just below the defective connection. In reinstalling the rails, I drilled out the offending screw anchorage holes with a forstner bit down to sound material or to the underlying inner liner. In a couple of instances, the plywood liner was deteriorated to such extent that additional deteriorated material around the forstner hole was cut out with a chisel. This cavity was then filled with west system epoxy using one of the high strength thickeners. After the epoxy was set but still green, I preliminarily installed the rails that had the epoxy filled holes, ran a pilot hole through the new epoxy and put a new stainless screw down. Purpose of this was to thread the epoxy while still green since it tends to be brittle when fully set. When finally installing the rails, I used a wood screw countersink to make a conical recess on both the deck and the handrail at each screw hole location. Purpose of this was to to provide a thick glob of sealant around the fastener at this critical junction as well as provide some resiliency in future strains and movement of the handrail.
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Terry, are you satisfied. . .
with the result? I did the same thing on my H37C, drilled out the holes and filled them with an epoxy mix. But I am planning to replace them with PlasTeak and am seriously considering bolt-through. At least, I think, four bolts per rail should be safer. I think Steve Dion did that using big fender washers inside and it looked OK. Oh, and David, if you did not find plywood sandwiched between the fiberglass when you removed a portlight then it rotted away. You would not be the first to have that happen. The cabin sides were not hollow, at least not where the portlights are installed.
with the result? I did the same thing on my H37C, drilled out the holes and filled them with an epoxy mix. But I am planning to replace them with PlasTeak and am seriously considering bolt-through. At least, I think, four bolts per rail should be safer. I think Steve Dion did that using big fender washers inside and it looked OK. Oh, and David, if you did not find plywood sandwiched between the fiberglass when you removed a portlight then it rotted away. You would not be the first to have that happen. The cabin sides were not hollow, at least not where the portlights are installed.
Ed, no, not really satisfied
with the strength of the wood screw fastener arrangement for the handrails. but, if they're used for handholds on a pitching deck and not to tie off lines from (which I think mine had earlier been used for) then I believe that they're ok. Gene Gruender I believe posted a tip sometime back about removing the bungs that i found a lot of help, sand any finish off the area of the bungs before attempting to remove them, preventing tear out of the surrounding teak. Best way I found to remove the bungs was to use a sharp 1/4" wood chisel and just carefully gouge it out, pushing with the palm. Drilling first and then using a screw to lift the bung out didn't work for me with the bronze screws since they are so soft, the recess is damaged in the process.
with the strength of the wood screw fastener arrangement for the handrails. but, if they're used for handholds on a pitching deck and not to tie off lines from (which I think mine had earlier been used for) then I believe that they're ok. Gene Gruender I believe posted a tip sometime back about removing the bungs that i found a lot of help, sand any finish off the area of the bungs before attempting to remove them, preventing tear out of the surrounding teak. Best way I found to remove the bungs was to use a sharp 1/4" wood chisel and just carefully gouge it out, pushing with the palm. Drilling first and then using a screw to lift the bung out didn't work for me with the bronze screws since they are so soft, the recess is damaged in the process.
No Plywood
I have not done all five portlights, but of the three that have been done, there was absolutely no sign of plywood. The two fiberglass sections were nestled together and did not telegraph a gap as if a third item were missing. This was true all the way around the edge of the opening, even at the top where one would assume the plywood would still be there if it were there originally. Also, when cutting out for the new improved scuppers, I did not discover any evidence of plywood again. Could they have done something differen in 78?
I have not done all five portlights, but of the three that have been done, there was absolutely no sign of plywood. The two fiberglass sections were nestled together and did not telegraph a gap as if a third item were missing. This was true all the way around the edge of the opening, even at the top where one would assume the plywood would still be there if it were there originally. Also, when cutting out for the new improved scuppers, I did not discover any evidence of plywood again. Could they have done something differen in 78?
Where are Screw Heads?
Are the screw heads hidden under teak plugs on the rail tops? By the way, no plywood core at the portlights. See reply to Ed.
Are the screw heads hidden under teak plugs on the rail tops? By the way, no plywood core at the portlights. See reply to Ed.
handrails
I removed the bungs and old screws from the handrails and drilled right on down through the cabin headliner. Used 3-1/2 in stainless bolts and large washers as backing plates. Squeezed 5200 down the hole to seal out the water. Replaced with new bungs sanded and finished with Cetol. Those handrails are not coming with me should I have to grab one to keep from going in the drink. You can also but a drill attachment specifically for drilling bung holes. The name escapes me at the moment. Go to Home Depot. Hunter used 3/8 bungs during that time. -Roland s/v Fraulein II '77h30
I removed the bungs and old screws from the handrails and drilled right on down through the cabin headliner. Used 3-1/2 in stainless bolts and large washers as backing plates. Squeezed 5200 down the hole to seal out the water. Replaced with new bungs sanded and finished with Cetol. Those handrails are not coming with me should I have to grab one to keep from going in the drink. You can also but a drill attachment specifically for drilling bung holes. The name escapes me at the moment. Go to Home Depot. Hunter used 3/8 bungs during that time. -Roland s/v Fraulein II '77h30
Fuller Counterbores
My '79 H30 has the same leak in one spot. There's a little stain developing on the starboard settee cushion from the drip off an exposed through-bolt nut that holds on the handrail. There's only one of these through- bolts for each side, hmmm? Thanks for all the tips on this. I'll get to it any day now! The best counterbores are made by Fuller, an indespensible boat builder's tool. I get mine from Jamestown Distributors. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com
My '79 H30 has the same leak in one spot. There's a little stain developing on the starboard settee cushion from the drip off an exposed through-bolt nut that holds on the handrail. There's only one of these through- bolts for each side, hmmm? Thanks for all the tips on this. I'll get to it any day now! The best counterbores are made by Fuller, an indespensible boat builder's tool. I get mine from Jamestown Distributors. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com
For the record:
Just to chime in here; when I popped out a couple of ports to try to stem the flow of water from above there was no sign of any sort of core at the ports. Just approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch of space between the hull (outer) and liner (inner). My 33 is an '82 (Apparently the last production 33 built) and this may be one of the things they started to forget as production wore to a close.
Just to chime in here; when I popped out a couple of ports to try to stem the flow of water from above there was no sign of any sort of core at the ports. Just approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch of space between the hull (outer) and liner (inner). My 33 is an '82 (Apparently the last production 33 built) and this may be one of the things they started to forget as production wore to a close.
No more assumptions.
You know what they say about assume? I thought the Cherubinis were similar in construction. My H37C has plywood between outer and inner liners at the portlights. It is about 1" at the 7x15s and less than 3/4" at the 5x12s. Not sure if the entire cabinside is cored or just around the portlights. Why would they make an H33 differently? So the Gray portlights just screw into fiberglass? Is it extra thick in that area? If you used a bolt-through portlight like the NFM would it compress and misshape the liners? Seems strange.
You know what they say about assume? I thought the Cherubinis were similar in construction. My H37C has plywood between outer and inner liners at the portlights. It is about 1" at the 7x15s and less than 3/4" at the 5x12s. Not sure if the entire cabinside is cored or just around the portlights. Why would they make an H33 differently? So the Gray portlights just screw into fiberglass? Is it extra thick in that area? If you used a bolt-through portlight like the NFM would it compress and misshape the liners? Seems strange.
No Compression
The new Grays are thru-bolted just like the old ones. The Bar nuts, (I think that's what they are called) cannot be tightened past a certain point which keeps the frame from warping and also keeps the portlight "floating" in 5200, the right way accoridng to the installation instructions. By the way, the new 5x12's come with the outer trim ring not pre-drilled in case you have an application that allows fastening from the inside only. It is a big pain in the ass to align and drill those holes.
The new Grays are thru-bolted just like the old ones. The Bar nuts, (I think that's what they are called) cannot be tightened past a certain point which keeps the frame from warping and also keeps the portlight "floating" in 5200, the right way accoridng to the installation instructions. By the way, the new 5x12's come with the outer trim ring not pre-drilled in case you have an application that allows fastening from the inside only. It is a big pain in the ass to align and drill those holes.
Trust (But Verify)
This thread sort of emphasizes that you can't assume all of the Cherubinis are similar, indeed, even that the same model is similar from start to finish. All my experience is limited to one 79 H33. For this boat: The cabin sides are certainly cored with plywood. (See photo I included in an earlier post to this thread) The Gray ports were never intended to be through bolted, at least not the ones that were original with my H33 nor the replacements obtained from Thrifty Mariner. The port was originally held in place by a set of wood screws from the inner flange through the inner liner plus any adhesion associated with the sealant caulk in the annular space between port barrel and cabin sides. The outer flange of the port is simply a seal, nothing more. The replacements are essentially identical. If the inner and outer flanges are bolted together, then this is an application not apparently anticipated by the manufacturer. My replacement Gray ports came with an explicit instruction to use only silicone type caulks on the plastic. The ports that David describes don't sound like Gray ports. Are you sure they are Gray ports David? Did they have the little foil instructions that I have included here as a photo?
This thread sort of emphasizes that you can't assume all of the Cherubinis are similar, indeed, even that the same model is similar from start to finish. All my experience is limited to one 79 H33. For this boat: The cabin sides are certainly cored with plywood. (See photo I included in an earlier post to this thread) The Gray ports were never intended to be through bolted, at least not the ones that were original with my H33 nor the replacements obtained from Thrifty Mariner. The port was originally held in place by a set of wood screws from the inner flange through the inner liner plus any adhesion associated with the sealant caulk in the annular space between port barrel and cabin sides. The outer flange of the port is simply a seal, nothing more. The replacements are essentially identical. If the inner and outer flanges are bolted together, then this is an application not apparently anticipated by the manufacturer. My replacement Gray ports came with an explicit instruction to use only silicone type caulks on the plastic. The ports that David describes don't sound like Gray ports. Are you sure they are Gray ports David? Did they have the little foil instructions that I have included here as a photo?
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Definitely Gray Ports made by Pompanette
My original ports were thru-bolted and the replacements came with the option of either installing like yours or drilling the outer flange and installing with thru-bolts. Also, the instructions were explicit regarding adhesives. The model that I ordered was the only model on the list that recommended 5200. All other models used silicone. FYI, I got mine from Thrifty Mariner too.
My original ports were thru-bolted and the replacements came with the option of either installing like yours or drilling the outer flange and installing with thru-bolts. Also, the instructions were explicit regarding adhesives. The model that I ordered was the only model on the list that recommended 5200. All other models used silicone. FYI, I got mine from Thrifty Mariner too.
Mine had instructions to use 5200 ...
and I called bomar to verify. The ports I have included very specific instructions to use the 5200 to bed, then use 5200 to attach the outer trim ring. I also found that some of my plywood had disappeared, but saw where it was definetly once there. I filled mine with fiberglass epoxy mix, peanut butter thickness (thickened with High density structual thickiner). leveled the filler along the edges and used the opportunity to even up the holes. Now, even if she leaks, it will not go to the core again.
and I called bomar to verify. The ports I have included very specific instructions to use the 5200 to bed, then use 5200 to attach the outer trim ring. I also found that some of my plywood had disappeared, but saw where it was definetly once there. I filled mine with fiberglass epoxy mix, peanut butter thickness (thickened with High density structual thickiner). leveled the filler along the edges and used the opportunity to even up the holes. Now, even if she leaks, it will not go to the core again.
Curiouser and curiouser
David Popkin and David Underwood: What a mystery. Why would the manufacturer send out sets of conflicting installation instructions? Can you posst the instructions that talk of through bolting and 5200 use?
David Popkin and David Underwood: What a mystery. Why would the manufacturer send out sets of conflicting installation instructions? Can you posst the instructions that talk of through bolting and 5200 use?
Silicone or 5200 are fine...
The ports are a polycarbonate I believe and either silicone or 5200 will work with them. The one adheasive sealer that you don't want to use is a polysulfide which will attack the plastic. Silicone is a gasketing material and 5200 is a polyurethane adhesive. The diference being that if you use 5200 you will most likely destroy the port if you have to remove it. Silicone on the other hand will remove easily but once it breaks it's seal it leaves a residue behind that is almost impossible for anything to stick to, including itself if you don't prep it properly. As for the ports themselves, either installation is per factory recommendations. Thru bolt or just fasten with wood screws from the inside and stick the outer trim ring on with adhesive. I can share this from my experience with my 37C. The as-built configuration that came with my boat from the Hunter factory had the Gray portlight's installed with wood screws from the inside and the trim ring bonded with white silicone to the outside. Some silicone filled the gaps in the cutout where there was excessive clearance between the portlight and the plywood core. Over time, the trim ring seal failed allowing water to intrude into the core. On three of the ten portlights on my boat the wood core was completely disintegrated leaving a gap between the inner and outer liner. The rest showed extensive delamination but the plywood core was still intact. On boats where the outer ring was thru bolted or screwed to the outer liner there typically is no damage to the core. The significance of this is that the cabin top flexes and expands and contracts with temperature causing the seal to breakdown. This is worse with silicone as it's not an adhesive and will leak. 5200 would last a lot longer if the surface prep was done right but you'll destroy the port getting it out. The problem continues. If you install with 5200, the adhesive may last the life of the boat but the portlight won't. It's plastic and is subjected to ultra violet radiation breakdown and will crack ultimately. Conclusion; if you can afford it, go to metal portlights. Fill in the gaps with epoxy where any wood rot has occured making a tight fit to minimize gaps and flex. If you thru bolt, you really don't need adhesive, a sealant is all that is required as the bolts will absorb all the stresses of the boat, windshield EDPM butyl rubber works great! Or, you can use 5200 and forget about them forever. As for a gap between the inner and outer core on the smaller Cherubini's it just doesn't make sense to build a sailboat without it on the different size vessels. The plywood is there predominantly for compression support and a filler for the portlight and also serves as as a beam structually running laterally along the cabin sides. Anything is possible I guess. I installed NFM stainless in my boat. They are a pain to install but they really are built well and I expect them to last for my lifetime at least. Good luck! Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
The ports are a polycarbonate I believe and either silicone or 5200 will work with them. The one adheasive sealer that you don't want to use is a polysulfide which will attack the plastic. Silicone is a gasketing material and 5200 is a polyurethane adhesive. The diference being that if you use 5200 you will most likely destroy the port if you have to remove it. Silicone on the other hand will remove easily but once it breaks it's seal it leaves a residue behind that is almost impossible for anything to stick to, including itself if you don't prep it properly. As for the ports themselves, either installation is per factory recommendations. Thru bolt or just fasten with wood screws from the inside and stick the outer trim ring on with adhesive. I can share this from my experience with my 37C. The as-built configuration that came with my boat from the Hunter factory had the Gray portlight's installed with wood screws from the inside and the trim ring bonded with white silicone to the outside. Some silicone filled the gaps in the cutout where there was excessive clearance between the portlight and the plywood core. Over time, the trim ring seal failed allowing water to intrude into the core. On three of the ten portlights on my boat the wood core was completely disintegrated leaving a gap between the inner and outer liner. The rest showed extensive delamination but the plywood core was still intact. On boats where the outer ring was thru bolted or screwed to the outer liner there typically is no damage to the core. The significance of this is that the cabin top flexes and expands and contracts with temperature causing the seal to breakdown. This is worse with silicone as it's not an adhesive and will leak. 5200 would last a lot longer if the surface prep was done right but you'll destroy the port getting it out. The problem continues. If you install with 5200, the adhesive may last the life of the boat but the portlight won't. It's plastic and is subjected to ultra violet radiation breakdown and will crack ultimately. Conclusion; if you can afford it, go to metal portlights. Fill in the gaps with epoxy where any wood rot has occured making a tight fit to minimize gaps and flex. If you thru bolt, you really don't need adhesive, a sealant is all that is required as the bolts will absorb all the stresses of the boat, windshield EDPM butyl rubber works great! Or, you can use 5200 and forget about them forever. As for a gap between the inner and outer core on the smaller Cherubini's it just doesn't make sense to build a sailboat without it on the different size vessels. The plywood is there predominantly for compression support and a filler for the portlight and also serves as as a beam structually running laterally along the cabin sides. Anything is possible I guess. I installed NFM stainless in my boat. They are a pain to install but they really are built well and I expect them to last for my lifetime at least. Good luck! Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Tom, where ya' been?
Took you long enough to jump in here.
As usual you straightened out the thread. It is strange that your Gray trim rings were "glued" but mine were "screwed". But that fits with the H37C, glued and screwed. Thru-bolting the Grays would probably be just as hard as with the NFMs. For those of you who have not thru-bolted just wait until you try it. The inside and outside surfaces are not parallel. Getting those holes to line up is most fun. Then if you oversize the holes you have another potential path for water. Be sure to use LOTS of sealant, LifeCalk in my case(a polysulfide because my ports are bronze). When I removed my Grays those that were original had silicone behind them. And those never leaked, even after 22 years.
Took you long enough to jump in here.
As usual you straightened out the thread. It is strange that your Gray trim rings were "glued" but mine were "screwed". But that fits with the H37C, glued and screwed. Thru-bolting the Grays would probably be just as hard as with the NFMs. For those of you who have not thru-bolted just wait until you try it. The inside and outside surfaces are not parallel. Getting those holes to line up is most fun. Then if you oversize the holes you have another potential path for water. Be sure to use LOTS of sealant, LifeCalk in my case(a polysulfide because my ports are bronze). When I removed my Grays those that were original had silicone behind them. And those never leaked, even after 22 years.Screwed, Glued and Tatooed
Hi Ed! Port lights are so near and dear to our hearts. Next time I think I'll just put starboard over the whole thing and forget it! You and I are but a few of the survivors of the NFM installation that have enough sanity left to continue to post to the site, that's what took me so long, and I'm still not finished! You don't hear from Gene much anymore, after he did his portlights he went on to build a house and it probably was easier??? Mike Alge was never heard from again after he did his portlights. Any other survivors out there? At any rate, I think I'm just a couple of bottles of Prozac from getting mine done, then I'm going to build a house! Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Hi Ed! Port lights are so near and dear to our hearts. Next time I think I'll just put starboard over the whole thing and forget it! You and I are but a few of the survivors of the NFM installation that have enough sanity left to continue to post to the site, that's what took me so long, and I'm still not finished! You don't hear from Gene much anymore, after he did his portlights he went on to build a house and it probably was easier??? Mike Alge was never heard from again after he did his portlights. Any other survivors out there? At any rate, I think I'm just a couple of bottles of Prozac from getting mine done, then I'm going to build a house! Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
Portlights
Just to let you all know that I am still around. I have a very low opion of NFM portlights and if I had known then what I now know I would not spend one red cent on them. Another 37C in the marina next to me has Beckson raindrains installed and he told me that in the 15 years that he has had them ,he has never had a problem with them. I could have done my boat for under $1000 instead of the $2300that I spent and would not have had the problems that I have had.
Just to let you all know that I am still around. I have a very low opion of NFM portlights and if I had known then what I now know I would not spend one red cent on them. Another 37C in the marina next to me has Beckson raindrains installed and he told me that in the 15 years that he has had them ,he has never had a problem with them. I could have done my boat for under $1000 instead of the $2300that I spent and would not have had the problems that I have had.
WELL, WELL, LOOKS LIKE....
This has taken on its own heart and lungs, but, you know what? I just did what the intructions said.... and they have not leaked a drop. When the time comes to remove the ports, bet they are ready for the trash anyway... so, by then, hope I'm too old to do the job and who ever hires for it will deal with it then, but, hopefully by then... my boat will be push button so I can sail till I'm at least a 100. I'm already too old to do the jobs on it I've already done in the last 5 years, esp. the bottom job. So, maybe retirement for me is not having to work on your own boat!
This has taken on its own heart and lungs, but, you know what? I just did what the intructions said.... and they have not leaked a drop. When the time comes to remove the ports, bet they are ready for the trash anyway... so, by then, hope I'm too old to do the job and who ever hires for it will deal with it then, but, hopefully by then... my boat will be push button so I can sail till I'm at least a 100. I'm already too old to do the jobs on it I've already done in the last 5 years, esp. the bottom job. So, maybe retirement for me is not having to work on your own boat!
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