Cabin Heater
- Thread starter Boomvang
- Start date
Hi Boomvang,
I have not, but have read a lot of very satisfied reports on the Webasto diesel heater on other forums. It sounds like a very practical unit, forced warm air around the cabin, etc.
I like the Dickinson “fireplace”models just because I think the ambience of the flames would be really nice, but I would imagine that the heating efficiency is much higher on the Webasto.
Greg
I have not, but have read a lot of very satisfied reports on the Webasto diesel heater on other forums. It sounds like a very practical unit, forced warm air around the cabin, etc.
I like the Dickinson “fireplace”models just because I think the ambience of the flames would be really nice, but I would imagine that the heating efficiency is much higher on the Webasto.
Greg
I installed a Webasto Airtop 2000 kit and haven’t been able to use it yet because it doesn’t turn on. I’m sure it’s something I didn’t do (yet) as the instructions are HORRIBLE!
The instructions are so unclear and sparse I’ve never seen anything like it. (I’m an IT guy and usually very quick to grasp technology documentation.). See if you can find them online - I can’t begin to explain how bad it is.
I need to call support (if I can find a number) and hopefully can get it working.
PS. This is not an easy DIY physical installation either. You need to drill and route and mount ducting and fixtures for fuel pickup, exhaust, intake, and warmed air ductwork.
The instructions are so unclear and sparse I’ve never seen anything like it. (I’m an IT guy and usually very quick to grasp technology documentation.). See if you can find them online - I can’t begin to explain how bad it is.
I need to call support (if I can find a number) and hopefully can get it working.
PS. This is not an easy DIY physical installation either. You need to drill and route and mount ducting and fixtures for fuel pickup, exhaust, intake, and warmed air ductwork.
I have an older Espar diesel heater on my boat. We really like it. It's similar in quite a few ways to the Webasto, but most of the sailors I know in this area really favor the Webasto. I had my unit serviced recently and the dealer was highly recommending the Webasto if I ever needed to go for a replacement. Also, a broker friend here with lots of cold weather experience favors Webasto. Installation of any of these diesel heaters is a bit of a bear. So good luck if you go it alone. Try to find a location that will allow for reasonable access if you ever need to fix anything.
And, I have a newer Espar that works great. Espar/Webasto...tomato/tomoto..they both work the same and both are good. Installation is not hard. Know the limitations and design as such. Then do it. Recognize that it will take time and dont get frustrated if it takes longer than anticipated. If you are uncomfortable with installation, a competent installer can do it in a day..
Im currently installing a Planar (Russian knockoff of the Espar) - take your time and really scope out the route of the duct work.
Les
Les
I just finished installing a Chinese knock off. The unit was $200, the through hull, $55, I made my own exhaust muffler out of a motorcycle muffler on Amazon (you need to use a special paste to make it airtight) plus another $150 for tubing from Sure Marine. If I were to do it again I would definitely get the marine exhaust muffler for $180 instead of fulling around with the motorcycle one. That being said, once all done, the unit is wonderful.
You get fresh, warm and dry air around the boat. The remote is excellent, well lit and very functional. I am taking fuel directly from the Racor filter, combusion and ventilation air both from the outside. The unit is super quiet. I love it. By far the most practical solution to heating the boat even in a place like Socal. I stopped using the electric heater when at the marina as the diesel heater is so much better.
Strongly recommended.
You get fresh, warm and dry air around the boat. The remote is excellent, well lit and very functional. I am taking fuel directly from the Racor filter, combusion and ventilation air both from the outside. The unit is super quiet. I love it. By far the most practical solution to heating the boat even in a place like Socal. I stopped using the electric heater when at the marina as the diesel heater is so much better.
Strongly recommended.
I was approached a number of years ago by an Espar "knock-off" company wanting to get into the marine market. Before I accepted becoming a dealer I wanted to have one to examine and install. I paid dealer price for it. Upon initial inspection it was as near identical as could possibly be, but looks are not everything. In the end nothing about the unit was quality nor was it safe for a marine application. I installed it on my own vessel as a test bench and by the time I was done, doing it correctly, it cost more than an Espar marine kit. I declined becoming a dealer as the company failed in every possible way from quality to customer service. While the pricing seemed attractive by the time I purchased all the stuff needed to make it a safe and compliant marine install it cost more than an Espar.
Within a few weeks of using it the first fuel pump began to leak, then the second one, then the third. Warranty replacements? Now that's funny.... The promised credits never came through. No problem I'll just use an Espar pump. No go, would not work with the Espar pump. Looks the same but was not. Then the muffler began leaking, spot weld failed, the igniter died and a bit later the HX cracked. Long and short is I now have an Espar, which is what I should have done from the beginning....
Some things I have learned over many years of installing these heaters...
#1 The truck kits & "knock-offs" are quite different from the Eberspacher "Espar" marine kits, do not skimp here.
#2 A marine unit has different fuel line to meet marine standards, copper, not plastic. The plastic fuel lines in the truck kit do not meet ABYC, USCG or minimum standards your insurance company will want to see. Finding metric size copper in the US can be tedious and ABYC/USCG complaint rubber hose is simply not made in these sizes.
#3 A marine kit has marine specific software to minimize lock outs. On trucks they know where the fuel tanks are in comparison to the fuel metering pump. Not so on boats so the software is programmed differently to minimize lock outs..
#4 The truck kit comes with very little duct hose & supply/return outlets/inlets and the plenum is usually smaller.
#5 The truck kit does not come with any exhaust lagging..
#6 The truck kit does not come with an exhaust muffler...
#7 The truck kit does not come with double walled marine SS exhaust hose. It is single wall and not safe for marine use. The double wall SS exhaust hose is two spiral wraps of SS vs. one. The knock offs & Espar truck kits I have seen use one spiral layer. You can hardly tell the difference between standard and marine other than the marine version is much stiffer.. The marine vent can handle positive pressure and not leak / vent exhaust into the cabin where the single wall can leak.
#8 The truck kit does not come with the exhaust fitting for the transom (often this needs to bee custom anyway)
#9 The truck kit does not come with a marine mounting bracket, they mount them on a floor in the cab. This mean buying a mount or custom fabricating one.
#10 On some models the marine kits use larger duct hose diameters and heater outlets (plenum) to make up for the longer runs in boats. Our local Espar distributor refuses to sell these parts for a truck unit due to claimed liability.
#11 Truck kits don't come with exhaust condensate drains (some marine kits don't either)
I have installed a number of Espar's for folks trying to save a buck by purchasing truck kit or a knock off unit from Russia or China.. To install the unit correctly, with the correct parts has always costs more in the long run.
I would strongly urge you to buy a heater from whomever will stand behind it and service it locally. I would also not install an Espar without the digital thermostat. These stats allow you to re-set codes and trouble shoot the codes. The service tool for this cost over $1000.00 and the Digi-Max D-1000 stat costs under $100.00
Also please avoid teeing into an existing fuel line. The fuel "metering" pumps need the small diameter pick up the Espar ships with or they can lock out and cause problems. These metering pumps are not a typical fuel pump and don't behave like one.
Also please don't be tempted to oversize these as short runs or what is called "short cycling" leads to dirty combustion.
Also if you want an Espar to run quietly, and not sound like a jet engine, install their intake air silencer. The difference is night and day...
Within a few weeks of using it the first fuel pump began to leak, then the second one, then the third. Warranty replacements? Now that's funny.... The promised credits never came through. No problem I'll just use an Espar pump. No go, would not work with the Espar pump. Looks the same but was not. Then the muffler began leaking, spot weld failed, the igniter died and a bit later the HX cracked. Long and short is I now have an Espar, which is what I should have done from the beginning....
Some things I have learned over many years of installing these heaters...
#1 The truck kits & "knock-offs" are quite different from the Eberspacher "Espar" marine kits, do not skimp here.
#2 A marine unit has different fuel line to meet marine standards, copper, not plastic. The plastic fuel lines in the truck kit do not meet ABYC, USCG or minimum standards your insurance company will want to see. Finding metric size copper in the US can be tedious and ABYC/USCG complaint rubber hose is simply not made in these sizes.
#3 A marine kit has marine specific software to minimize lock outs. On trucks they know where the fuel tanks are in comparison to the fuel metering pump. Not so on boats so the software is programmed differently to minimize lock outs..
#4 The truck kit comes with very little duct hose & supply/return outlets/inlets and the plenum is usually smaller.
#5 The truck kit does not come with any exhaust lagging..
#6 The truck kit does not come with an exhaust muffler...
#7 The truck kit does not come with double walled marine SS exhaust hose. It is single wall and not safe for marine use. The double wall SS exhaust hose is two spiral wraps of SS vs. one. The knock offs & Espar truck kits I have seen use one spiral layer. You can hardly tell the difference between standard and marine other than the marine version is much stiffer.. The marine vent can handle positive pressure and not leak / vent exhaust into the cabin where the single wall can leak.
#8 The truck kit does not come with the exhaust fitting for the transom (often this needs to bee custom anyway)
#9 The truck kit does not come with a marine mounting bracket, they mount them on a floor in the cab. This mean buying a mount or custom fabricating one.
#10 On some models the marine kits use larger duct hose diameters and heater outlets (plenum) to make up for the longer runs in boats. Our local Espar distributor refuses to sell these parts for a truck unit due to claimed liability.
#11 Truck kits don't come with exhaust condensate drains (some marine kits don't either)
I have installed a number of Espar's for folks trying to save a buck by purchasing truck kit or a knock off unit from Russia or China.. To install the unit correctly, with the correct parts has always costs more in the long run.
I would strongly urge you to buy a heater from whomever will stand behind it and service it locally. I would also not install an Espar without the digital thermostat. These stats allow you to re-set codes and trouble shoot the codes. The service tool for this cost over $1000.00 and the Digi-Max D-1000 stat costs under $100.00
Also please avoid teeing into an existing fuel line. The fuel "metering" pumps need the small diameter pick up the Espar ships with or they can lock out and cause problems. These metering pumps are not a typical fuel pump and don't behave like one.
Also please don't be tempted to oversize these as short runs or what is called "short cycling" leads to dirty combustion.
Also if you want an Espar to run quietly, and not sound like a jet engine, install their intake air silencer. The difference is night and day...
Not sure where the Army Surplus Stores are these days... but in 1970 my message center ran courrier runs all over Germany. The jeep did not have a heater, but the motor pool got us a heater from a "Deuce and Half" truck. SIMPLE, 2- hose connection to the engine and 12v for the fan. The unit fit between the front seats, and to boot, it had a small pluenum chamber where we could heat up our food. I always thought they'd be perfect for a boat, but where to buy? Now, if only the company commander had not absconded with the side curtains during winter NATO field exercises......
Maine Sail,
I strongly value your experience and I believe your comments are fair and very useful. The contrarian view is that if you do a proper diesel heater install for $3K in parts and $2K in labor then many boaters would just never do it and would never realize the benefits of such a system. If you are a full time cruiser or live on the boat in Pacific Northwest, I can see how important this is. But many boaters in Southern California, San Francisco, etc. look at diesel heat as a nice to have option useful to extend the sailing season (it is just nice to have dry heat while at Catalina in the winter month). The option is not worth $5K to them, so they never do it. The key question is, can it be done safely for less, for occasional use.
#1 The units are largely the same, having different software for marine vs. truck use is unlikely
#2 You do not need to use the plastic fuel line or copper, you can use fuel hose which meets ABYC as I did
#6 The exhaust muffler should be marine approved. I fully agree with you here, it costs $180
#7 Double walled exhaust is not bad but completely unnecessary for such low pressure, low flow output
The bottom line is that when installing a diesel heater, a large part of the cost is running the air ducts around the boat and this has to be custom anyway and is not included in any marine kits. It can cost $50 if you have a short run and one outlet for a small boat or $500-$1,000 if you have multiple outlets spread around the boat. Your choice and does not depend on the brand.
The actual unit, control, exhaust, fuel pump is pretty standard and can be had for $500 (all in, generic China) or $2-3,000 (Espar, Webasto). In both cases, the install could be safe, easy to use, quiet and will totally change to experience on the boat in cold, humid nights. I have been pleased with mine (love the control and the one button on/off) but will report back after a few months to see if I have had problems. For those of you who are worried about noise, if you install the marine muffler on the exhaust and the muffler that comes with the unit on the intake, the unit becomes totally quiet. Also, the pump ticking noise is annoying only in the beginning when it is starting the system. Once the pump is full with diesel it quiets down a lot and become just noise. So, do not worry about it. Overall noise on medium settings is comparable to a space heater, on low settings it is barely noticeable and on high settings it is like an air conditioner.
SV Pizzazz
I strongly value your experience and I believe your comments are fair and very useful. The contrarian view is that if you do a proper diesel heater install for $3K in parts and $2K in labor then many boaters would just never do it and would never realize the benefits of such a system. If you are a full time cruiser or live on the boat in Pacific Northwest, I can see how important this is. But many boaters in Southern California, San Francisco, etc. look at diesel heat as a nice to have option useful to extend the sailing season (it is just nice to have dry heat while at Catalina in the winter month). The option is not worth $5K to them, so they never do it. The key question is, can it be done safely for less, for occasional use.
#1 The units are largely the same, having different software for marine vs. truck use is unlikely
#2 You do not need to use the plastic fuel line or copper, you can use fuel hose which meets ABYC as I did
#6 The exhaust muffler should be marine approved. I fully agree with you here, it costs $180
#7 Double walled exhaust is not bad but completely unnecessary for such low pressure, low flow output
The bottom line is that when installing a diesel heater, a large part of the cost is running the air ducts around the boat and this has to be custom anyway and is not included in any marine kits. It can cost $50 if you have a short run and one outlet for a small boat or $500-$1,000 if you have multiple outlets spread around the boat. Your choice and does not depend on the brand.
The actual unit, control, exhaust, fuel pump is pretty standard and can be had for $500 (all in, generic China) or $2-3,000 (Espar, Webasto). In both cases, the install could be safe, easy to use, quiet and will totally change to experience on the boat in cold, humid nights. I have been pleased with mine (love the control and the one button on/off) but will report back after a few months to see if I have had problems. For those of you who are worried about noise, if you install the marine muffler on the exhaust and the muffler that comes with the unit on the intake, the unit becomes totally quiet. Also, the pump ticking noise is annoying only in the beginning when it is starting the system. Once the pump is full with diesel it quiets down a lot and become just noise. So, do not worry about it. Overall noise on medium settings is comparable to a space heater, on low settings it is barely noticeable and on high settings it is like an air conditioner.
SV Pizzazz
On our boat we have a Paul Luke fireplace that was converted to using two Optimus kerosene burners. Outside the firebox, air is drawn down into the lower salon via a bilge blower and hose duct system. It consumed too much power, was noisy, and was dirty with soot!
The burners are just dirty and unreliable running off a preeurized 2 gallon fuel tank. What a mess!
I removed the kerosene burners, fuel line and tank and replaced the burners with the alcohol burner and flame control system from an Origo heatPal system. The firebox and tile stove heat up the Pilothouse and warm air is drawn into the main salon via ducting and a 12v muffin computer fan. The fan is properly fused, is quiet and moves an abundance of air below.
I 3D printed adapters for the fan to 3” hose /ducting. Draws less than 1amp, and moves air to warm our entire Corbin 39 at 74 degrees when it’s 20 degrees out. On one Origo alcohol tank I get more than 7-8 hrs of burn time easy.
It’s clean, warm, and easy to safely control. Using a couple dorade vents for ventilation and the stove pipe chimney ensures plenty of oxygen. We use carbon dioxide detectors also. Not a system for live aboard times but works wonderful for cruising.
The burners are just dirty and unreliable running off a preeurized 2 gallon fuel tank. What a mess!
I removed the kerosene burners, fuel line and tank and replaced the burners with the alcohol burner and flame control system from an Origo heatPal system. The firebox and tile stove heat up the Pilothouse and warm air is drawn into the main salon via ducting and a 12v muffin computer fan. The fan is properly fused, is quiet and moves an abundance of air below.
I 3D printed adapters for the fan to 3” hose /ducting. Draws less than 1amp, and moves air to warm our entire Corbin 39 at 74 degrees when it’s 20 degrees out. On one Origo alcohol tank I get more than 7-8 hrs of burn time easy.
It’s clean, warm, and easy to safely control. Using a couple dorade vents for ventilation and the stove pipe chimney ensures plenty of oxygen. We use carbon dioxide detectors also. Not a system for live aboard times but works wonderful for cruising.
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We have a Webasto heater on our boat and LOVE IT! We bought the boat new, and the heater was a dealer installed 'option' that was included in the original quote. I never thought for a second about not getting it. We generally like our temperatures on the cool side, so we use one of the more economic heater modes, and we also use a below "normal" thermostat setting. We've used the unit for a couple of years now, and I don't think we could handle being without it. Our unit is installed behind the aft berth at the transom.
A couple of things that I've noticed;
Most of all, enjoy the fact that you can take some layers off, and leave the sleeping bags in their stuff sacks!
)
A couple of things that I've noticed;
- There is quite a disparity between the heat output at the 'zero run' aft berth and the 'long run' v-berth in the front. So, we've started closing the v-berth door and heat vent. It keeps the rest of the boat more evenly heated and the heater runs less often and for shorter periods of time.
- Our installation has heat outlets in the aft berth, a branch that runs to the head (a vent out of the vanity cabinet), the main saloon near the table, and all the way forward to the v-berth. Except for the branch to the head, all of the ducting is run (very low) through a long run of cabinetry and seating.
- While it's 'quiet', it is NOT 'silent'. Having the unit installed next to where you sleep definitely makes it noisier than your home furnace, and you may very well notice it until you get used to it. On the other hand, if chattering teeth keep you awake at night, it might be a reasonable trade-off.
- The hot air ducts take up quite a bit of space where they run through what was intended to be storage.
- Using the heater does make a small difference in our fuel consumption. Not a big deal with our current boat, but it could have been with our tiny (7 gal.) fuel tank in our first boat.
I was once able to get our unit to work (when it didn't want to) by disconnecting the thermostat and then reconnecting it again. Come on... as an IT guy, I can't believe that you haven't rebooted it yet! ;-) The other thing that happened to us, is that we ended up with an air bubble in the fuel line this year. When I gave up and asked the service folks to bail me out, all they said they did was to bleed the fuel line to the furnace.
I'll believe that! Take a long time to visualize how much space the ducts will take, and how to run them most efficiently, so that you don't lose heat to excessive and unnecessary bends and twists in the duct work.
Most of all, enjoy the fact that you can take some layers off, and leave the sleeping bags in their stuff sacks!
)
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