C27 waterdamage keel, wet glass, rip out keel?

[Markus]

Now we really have opened up pandora's box. We scraped the starboard side and now found that there is water damage under the fiberglass at the keel. I ground all remaining gelcoat, fiberglass off in certain areas and are now down to the bare lead and also fiberglass. Now that we have opened the can of worms, we are (#@%*#$.How to get it to dry out? We have put a heat lamp on it for a few days, and the top right portion (see upper circle) was drying out fine. BUT, when you take the lamp off it starts getting wet again after a day or so. This means that the water is still oozing out. You probably cannot get the water out entirely without removing the keel.I don't have a crane that i could lift the boat off the trailer to drop the keel... is there a way to encase the moisture that is already in the glass (probably seeping through from the cracks in the bilge???) and then go over it with new glass? I fear, that if i keep grinding away, there won't be any fiberglass left, and i might as well rebuild the entire boat. I really don't want to have to rip the whole keel out and reglass the whole thing. No crane no removal... The three circles on the picture are where the water is. The lower two were caused by a major rainfall last night, BUT the top right one is where it keeps getting wet, even after drying out for days. How can this be encased. The boat is not worth taking it to the marine shop again for another major repair... I might as well buy a new one.Any thoughts for the project from heck? I am glad that I get to learn it all now, so that I won't make the same mistakes next time...

 

[Ross]

Be patient, put a fan on it and let it run

constantly. When you decide to close that up again grind the glass to a long taper at least 8 times as wide as the glass is thick. and use chopped strand mat between the layers of woven cloth. Use a grooved roller to compact the glass and to remove bubbles. Bright sunlight will cause the resin to cure prematurely. Polyester or vinylester resin will let you get more layers on in one day. The boat was built with polyester so using that for repair is not a compromize.

 

[sailaway78]

Where does it come from

I'm not sure I understand where the water is coming from. Almost has to be from inside the boat, seems to me. So you have a keel to hull joint that is leaking, and the water is leaking through the keel to hull joint and getting under the glass on the keel. Lots of boats have a keel bolt, keel joint leakage situation. Although usually it comes into the boat. This is what you need to address first. Fix the leak, and stop the new water from getting into the boat. If you have water in the bilge, as you say, this is where the water is coming from. The proper starting place is to stop whatever it it that is leaking water into the boat when it rains. Porthole, chaniplate, stanchion, etc. Next would be the keel to hull joint. Stop the water from getting into the bilge, then stop the water from leaking through the keel to hull joint. If water is leaking out from the bilge now, then when the boat is splashed the reverse will occur, and water will leak into the boat from the keel. Then you do whatever is needed to fix the keel. But the water is not going to hurt the lead, and is only going to get between the lead and the glass. This will more than likely be the easiest part of the fix.

 

[markus]

water coming from bilge...

As the boat is on the trailer, the only way the water can get to the keel is via the bilge. The bilge has all cracked gelcoat, some fiberglass removed previously to "see" the wet wood, where the rainwater has been leaking into the fiberglass for years! I have fans and heaters on the bilge right now, but I bet it would take years to really dry it out this way. I am stopping the water from running into the bilge, just fixed all the leaks last week: windows, stanchions, etc, etc, etc. Now there is no more water leaking into the bilge, but the water still slowly keeps creeping down. Of course, gravity will make it run down and since I opened up the glass below it will keep oozing out. Now i am going to try to dry it as much as possible and then glass, keep drying it, some filler, interlux2000, bottom paint and plop the whole thing into erie! Thanks for the suggestions with the plastic... I was thinking the same... but i am thinking of starting the plastic much higher so that i can also fill and epoxy the hull... I wish I had a bigger indoor building. What should I use in the bilge??? It has to obviously be closed as well so we can entoumb the current moisture, that I will never be able to fully get out, unless i remove the keel and let the boat dry for years! obviously not an option.what can i pour into the bilge to fill all the cracks, leaks and where the fiberglass has been cut to obviously try to dry the wood???

 

[Maine Sail]

Your keel stub

Your keel stub is most likely laminated with marine plywood and as such the plywood is wet and will continue to be wet until you rip it out. Many boats were built this way and many continue to sail, without their keels falling off, for years and years but they weep water when on the hard. Even you you dry the bilge the plywood will continue to drip water. An easy way to tell if your stub was laminated with plywood is to drill into it from the bilge and if you get brown muck or sawdust you have plywood in your keel stub. Don;t forget to fill the drilled hole with epoxy. If you don't have a plywood keel stub it's as easy as dropping the keep and re-bedding it.

 

[higgs]

How long have you been trying to dry it out?

If the glass is saturated, it can take several months to dry it out completely.Sealing mositure in, as I think you are suggesting, will only put your problems off for a while. If you have wood in the stub, as Main Sail suggests, then you have a different situation and I would call a surveyor to evaluate options.How much does the boat minus keel wiegh? You may not need a crane to lift the hull off the keel if it is light enough.

 

[sailaway78]

Have you tried

Have you tried checking some of the owners sites, or possibly the mfg. and find out exactly how this thing is put together. If possible, that would be much more appealing to me than drilling holes in the bilge, where you already have a leaking problem. I do not know what to think about a wooden keel stub that is more than likely saturated and or rotten. I don't think I would be comfortable with this situation, knowing the wood was water logged, but if thats the case, the boat may not be worth fixing. Would probably depend upon how much you are able to do yourself. Glad thats not a decision I have to make. I would check some of the owner sites, and try to find out if someone else has had this problem, and how they fixed it if they did.

 

[Waffle]

Here is what I would do!

Call Catalina and ask them what they think. Goto the Catalina Web site and e-mail tech support with the pic and your explaination. Ask them for a recommend method of repair. Catalina is GREAT for helping customers figure out that is worng and how to fix it. Here is what I thing. There is a void in the keel stub and it filled with water. The water froze and expanded breaking the fiberglass. The water could have leaked in the keel bolts or somewhere else. I think the expensive method of repair is to remove the keel. Inspect and repair the keel stub if required. Repair the fiberglass damage to the keel. Re-Install the keel and caulk it with 3M-5200. They hope it doesn't leak again. OR forget this proble and keep sailing your boat. It falls off this year or 10 years from now, maybe never. To teel you the truth that is something all of us production boat owner live with. There is a reason an IP cost twice as much. It is called you get what you pay for.Frick A Fracking Darn Boats!

 

[Fred]

Markus, take a deep breath and relax.

The glass on the C27 keel was an add on. Most C27s have the lead keel unglassed, faired with fillers, or left lumpy. You don't need to replace or repair the glass on the outside of the lead keel.The plywood in the bilge is just layed in and glassed over. It's a nasty little job to remove it if you have to, but the emphasis is on little. There's not a lot of plywood there. You can remove it all in half a day.Don't remove it until you examine it carefully. If most of it is soft, you probably have to redo it. If most of it is hard. and you can get it dry, you don't need to tear it out.How are your keel bolts? Are they the (old) galvanised bolts or the (newer)stainless steel?Keel bolts are a very common problem on C27s. Catalins sells a kit to redo the keel bolts. I did that job on one of the C27s I owned. It's not too bad a job. You drill doen through the keel stub into the lead, screw in five 10 inch long lag bolts (wood screw threads on one end and machine screw threads on the other), then you have new keel bolts to tighten up the keel/hull joint. The screw threads hold really well in lead, and Catalina recomends that they be screwed in with epoxy resin to seal the holes in the glass and plywood.If you need to replace the plywood in the keel stub, you should do that before the keel bolt fix. Less holes to line up as you install the plywood.Whoever glassed your keel may have done it to avoid the keel bolt fix. The Catalina 27 chat list (get there through Catalina Yachts website) has lots of advice and support.

 

[Waffle]

Fred, that sound like

GREAT advice from a C-27 mid 1980 owner. Darn keel bolts! My next boat will have the keel structural bonded to the boat (NO KEEL BOLTS)!

 

[Fred]

The front bolts are the ones that go first

because the keel separates at the front. It's called the Catalina Smile, and most of them have it.I heard the Catalina site was down, but that was a while ago. Thought it was back up.The good news is that nobody has ever heard of a C27 or C30 losing the keel. They just weep more as time goes on.I think you need to take the glass covering off the outside of the keel so it can drain better, then keep heat and air flowing over tha plywood in the keel stub. Remove th rest of the glass is a good idea.Once the plywood is as dry as you can get it, I would pour in epoxy saturating resin, or regular epoxy resin thinned with tolulene.This commits you to epoxy for the rest of the repair. You could save some money and use polyester resin thinned with styrene, then you can use polyester resin when you glass over the plywood.Turn off your heater and put your lights as far back as you can, or work in natural light. Tolulene is VERY flamable. So is Styrene.Once the thinned resin has soaked in and hardened, you can mix more resin with microballoons or silica and fill around the plywood so you have a smooth surface to glass over. The idea is to keep water out and make a solid layer for the keel bolts to squeeze on.You need to grind the glass above the plywood so the new glass will stick. You want at least 6" overlap up onto the keel stub. Don't take much glass off, just get down to fresh clean material.With either epoxy or polyester resin I would use an 18 oz. mat, a 24 oz roving, three layers for a total of three mat, 3 roving. two more layers wouldn't hurt.About those keel bolts. The best way to test them is to put a big wrench on the nuts (after a bit of penetrating oil and a couple of days to soak) and see if they break. If the nuts turn and they will take the factory reccomended torque, they're probably all right.when you add the lags, you don't have to take out the old bolts. Just drill nearby and install the lags. On all the bolts where you can remove the nuts, use the biggest washers you can get when you reinstall the nuts.On my 1972 C27, only one bolt was really bad, but I put in 5 lags anyway. Once you're there with all the tools to do one, it's pretty easy. You will probably be fine with 2 or three lags.Good luck! It's only 8 or ten hours of work once the plywood is dry and the old glass is off. You can sail this season!

 

[Fred]

One more thing.

You have to jack up the keel so the smile dissapears before you tighten the bolts. A small hydraulic jack will do it. Catalina says 70% of boat weight on keel, evenly distributed,

 

[markus]

why even glass over the wood?

Fred, Thanks for the advice... I have to get it done soon, because the marina already called and said they are launching Why even glass over the wood? It is only to keep the water out. i don't see any structural proerties to it? Those heavy matts are a little overkill, not?If the current bolts don't move, I thought of torquing the lagbolts to specs, if I can find the specs anywhere... Also stainless over galvanized for the lag bolts? What do you want to last longer: the bolts or the boat? I think that galvanized will do for the next 5 - 10 years.

 

[Ferg]

Markus

Use the stainless, they’re way stronger and you’ll never have to worry about what’s going on down there under all the wood, lead, and fiberglass.So, you want to protect the bolts and the wood. I had to do mine last spring and noticed one reason the wood got so bad was because the fiberglass over it was very thin and got delaminated causing rot.I had to chisel out a few layers of the old wood, dry the bilge out for over a week, recheck the wood then start rebuilding from there. In my case, instead of putting in new plywood, I built it back up using fiberglass and the heaviest matting I could get my hands on. Tips:By rebuilding with fiberglass, you get around the water penetration from inside the bilge. Only do about a half inch thickness at a time so it doesn’t crack from the heat it generates. Between every layer, CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN!!!! I went so far as to dremmel out any little bubbles that I missed before going to the next layer. Get the proper roller so you can get all the air out before the resin hardens.When you’re done, the fiberglass should look dark with no white patches.So, I now have 2 layers of plywood and an inch and a bit of fiberglass. At that point, I did the lag bolts and added another thinner layer of resin to protect the bolts from water damage.A guy who knows told me not to paint with bilge paint but use something less robust, he says it’ll act like an early warning system when the bilge needs future attention.MOST IMPORTANT TIP:You’ll find that’s a very long drill bit you’re using. When you get down to the lead, fill the hole with soapy water. If you don’t, the drillbit will bind up down there and cause you grief in a big way. I’d recommend scrounging up an impact gun for lagging in the bolts. Once that’s done, you need only focus on the keel joint to prevent water damage.These older C27’s are great boats and are well worth the sweat equity it takes to keep em’ going.Best of luck, eh!Ferg

 

[markus]

glass is all out... what size bolt?

what size lagbolt? catalina drawing says 18 inch catalina direct offers 8 inch... I got all the glass out of the bilge. That was a treat, but the grinder with a cutting wheel made it easy enough. There is no way to get the nuts off the keel bolts, so I will sister in. Even though the nuts are still serviceable they are so rusted in that i would break them off, even after penetrating maybe a super torch would do it, but then what else will that damage further down if the bolt gets heated up to super heat... but the tops of the bolts look too rusty to take them off, anyway.The wood is in decent shape. It doesn't seem soft or rotten, just a little moist down to the main glass... so my idea is to sister some 12 or 18 inch bolts in after epoxy resining the whole thing and then maybe put some glass over the whole thing, then the sister bolts... There is no way to get the old bolts off... so sistering in will be the solution.i have a big impact gun and plenty of compressor air and a 3 foot breaker bar...

 

[sailaway78]

Good going

Glad to hear that you have things going your way. Sounds like you have it pretty well handled and most problems figured out. I have been a little lax on my projects lately, guess it is some combination of old age and spring fever.

 

[Fred]

Markus, I used the Catalina factory bolts, which

were 10 inch. Catalina direct bolts at 8 inch will be fine. Catalina Yachts tech support gave me torque specs on the phone. What you want to avoid is over torque which will smash all your good work.Stainless lags because they screw in easier and they won't rust, so you can tighten the bolts next year when things have settled a bit. Also, you will sell the boat sometime, and the new owner, or their surveyor, will like those stainless bolts.Glass over the wood because the plywood is crap and it will come apart with the strain of the bolts. I mean it was crap when they built the boat. There is no decent marine plywood made in the US or Canada. More on that by request.With glass over, the plywood is just a spacer between the hull glass and the glass you put in on top of the plywood. Thick glass because the plywood is still crap and you need the glass over it to make it strong.Once you are ready to glass, it's like paint. More layers is easy. The load of the lead keel is on those washers and nuts.You could just make the glass thick 4" around the bolts and nuts, but it's less work and stronger to lay several layers of glass flat.You've done the hard part.

 

[john]

keel nuts

hi markus you can cut the keel nuts off with a dremil and the red cut off disks.Make a cut in the center of the flat on the nut.when you get most of the way thru put a 1/2 " steel chisel in the cut and wack it with a lump hammer .you could cut both sides if you want. then re tap the bolts and get new nuts. I would drill in some SS lag bolts. I would drill around the keel bolts with a 5" deep hole saw And remove the the ply wood then fill with epoxy & glass then re glass the top .The weeping keel seems like a job for next year .I would fix the Catalina smile with glass tape and epoxy. just leave the holes for last get them dry with lights .next fall grind the holes open and let them dry all winter in the spring you can fill them . John

 

[Markus]

epoxy on bolts? can't retorque but no leak through

So, I could find 12 inch stainless bolts, and of course i had to go with an 18 inch drillbit. I am still drying out the wood, and it is almost dry. I really don't want to cut the old nuts off. Here is an epoxy question. I was going to epoxy resin a layer on the wood first. Then I was going to build up the glass like Fred said and then drill the extra holes for the 12 inch stainless steel bolts. Who do you call at Catalina??? catalina yachts? I called them and the parts department was pretty vague about the bolts and it seemed like the lady in parts had never heard of supporting it with lag bolts. So, i am very hesitant to call them for the torque specs. I agree with the overtightening, but you want to use epoxy in them when you torque them in, however, then you can't retorque or tighten them next year. Isn't the epoxy also going to act a little as a water barrier around the bolts where the keel attaches to the hull because you are going through the hull there and otherwise if there is leakage from the fiberglass strips (catalina smile) where the keel meets the hull it would seep right into the bilge unless it is tight with epoxy???

 

[Ross]

Markus, if you can beg,borrow, or steal an

inpact wrench. For you purposes an electric one is best you can probably pull tose nuts off that way. Some spray on rust solvent and a power wrench will usually make any nut yield. Be very careful with flames in there resin burns like gasoline.