C&C Keel Joint Smile

[jablonsa]

Hi, Im considering purchasing a 1981 34' C&C yacht. I hade a look at it out of the water and its got a joint running along the keel. Mostly one side of it. I know the owners liked to race it so that may be afactor.
The surveyor said its cosmetic.
Should i be worried about anything.
Is there a way to fix this so it lasts.
How serious is this is my main question.

From the inside the bolts look good, no cracking on the inside of hull around them.

I greatly appreciate your comments.

 

[Alec]

I had a 1971 C&C 27 for 26 years and every spring I would dig out loose caulking (usually marine tex) and refill the crack. Never leaked and never got any worse. I wouldn't be concerned unless I saw evidence of leakage.

 

[Guest]

Keel stub

Our 1991 P42 keel stub joint still has no sign of cracks, chips, smiles, loose joint compound, etc. Our previous 1989 H28 was the same way. Whether a boat is raced or not should not be a factor.

Terry Cox

 

[bob12321]

I wouldnt worry about it. just walk around the boatyard

in the spring and watch many of the boaters recaulk their joints

 

[dave lundy]

Hi,
If this boat had been grounded with any serious forward motion then the keel stub could torque and force the rear of the stub upward fracturing the supporting fiberglass floors and hull. This situation can result in a catastrophic failure causing the keel to became detatched and putting the vessel in some serious jeopardy. It may well be only cosmetic, but be very sure.

I had this idenical scenario occur while merely piddling around in a mooring field looking for a mooring and the repairs were very expensive and took weeks.

Good luck, Dave

 

[sailaway78]

A couple of BIG IF's

If your surveyor is sure it is only cosmetic, and If your surveyor knows his business, then fill and fair the crack and go about sailing the boat. But I would make sure that the surveyor is familiar with these boats, and knows his stuff.

 

[tommays]

Picture one is NOT a smile and shows a crack going into the HULL

 

[Jumpstart]

Yikes!

Having had a C&C, the condition in picture 1 is not the C&C smile. It looks to me that the keel sump is compromised. Causes could be anywhere from flexing to a upward force from a grounding. Potentially very expensive to fix. Drop keel, inspect underside of sump, grind interior of sump back, re glass and reinforce. Grind exterior of sump and hull back, re glass. Oh, did I mention that you might need to remove a bulkhead to get to the interior or just maybe a stringer or two.

I am not sure the surveyor is doing due diligence here. Remove floorboards and check for small cracks near mast step, condition my also show up in stringers. The picture shows a bulging area. Might just be camera distortion. If area is bulging then could be another sign of damage. Good way to tell is too grind back surface area in region of cracks. If fiberglass has white streaks in it, it is fractured. If that is the case, it could be more than you bargained for.

 

[bffatcat]

Crack in keel to hull seam

From the picture this looks like more than a standard 5200 seam job. I`d be worried about
the crack further foreward of the seam. Hard grounding might be the cause

 

[seadaddler]

Opinions

I think you should get a second opinion to look at it in person.
Ask the seller to pay to have a second opinion of your choice or good bye.
Also make a lower offer if it proves to be a minor repair.
Nick

 

[Ross]

Re: Opinions

In his book "The Nature of Boats" Dave Gerr states that with modern keel design and attachment that this manner of damage has to be expected and treated with considerable diligence.
I wonder if ultra-sound inspections would show fractured laminate?

 

[jablonsa]

Hey thanks for all of your advice. I will have the boat looked at once more.
What i can say is where we see the cracks they had about 1/8"-3/16" of putty. I was all fired up with this boat and now this.

 

[zeehag]

i would continue shopping--there are sooo many GOOOD boats out there with low bottom lines and less damage and higher safety factor than an unknown that will cost many dollars to even check out----gooood luck...be safe......smooooth sailing.....

 

[jablonsa]

Well to be honest I got the owners to drop the price down a lot. Its a good price considering i wont have to transport it because it will only take 2-3 days tops to sail it to my location. The other factor is since the surveyor said its only cosmetic, I will see what the final survey says once i get it. But my thinking is if the problem were to get transform from the current cosmetic situation to structural, simply theoretically speaking worst case scenario i should be covered. When i talked with the insurance company their broker said the surveyor i used is accredited and has been on their recommended list for decades now. BTW the pictures look a bit bad because the cracks exposed a black sub layer, Im guessing this could be the VC Tarr protective layer the broker mentioned was put on there. basically so far it sounds to me like the putty job had been sloppy and made things look worse then what they really appears to be.

And has anyone dealt or know the reputation of Robertson & Robertson?

 

[kloudie1]

Get the keel bolts torqued up to reduce any looseness that may be contributing to the cracks.. Looks like some of the cracks are in faring compound.. sounds like your surveyor is a good one..
Ross, I tried to inspect a fiberglass pressure vessel using ultrasound as we would with a steel vessel (actually dierected an expert contractor to do it) and we were not successful.. The glass is quite dirty in the base case and the signal is very hard to interpret.. The vessel I was looking at was in great shape.. It may be that an actual fracture would show up pretty well..

 

[guest]

Robertson & Robertson (Skipper's Plan) are the best in the province.

Have been dealing with them since 1990, and have had two major claims with them. Both were collisions causing damage over $5000 in each instance (we were cleared by protest committee of any fault in either accident). Andrew Robertson, their president, takes over the claim right off the bat and gets it fixed up better than new.
No question - they are the best insurer you will find up here.

 

[Guest]

C&C

Unless I misunderstood your intentions no insurance company in their right mind would pay for vessel damage that occurred prior to the effective date of coverage. Perhaps the surveyor is reputable, but can only tell damage with the tools at hand. That is why their report has the necessary disclaimers in the event damage is uncovered after the fact.

While the advice from this site helps, you must live with your choice regardless of price. If there is damage beyond the surveyor's visual assessment, the lowered sale price does little to appease the pain of a major repair bill. As was pointed out in an earlier reply, the market has lots of boats to choose from.

Terry Cox

 

[jablonsa]

Thanks Terry,

Im simply examining all the angles before i make my decision. And no im not looking for insurance to cover damage done beforehand. Right now the surveyor said he strongly belives its cosmetic. He chiseled some of the debrie, inspected the inside hull around the bolts and made his decision based on that. I actually got him to recheck 3-4 times just to make sure. With him working at C&C i would think he would know where to look and know how to asses this better than the average surveyor. Nethertheless im always sceptical and want to make sure i have some protection from multiple angles. I was simply asking about the worst case scanario where this cosmetic issue were to turn into something more. would the insurance honor the surveyros word or would i have a tough time like it is sometimes with lets say Auto Insurance. lol i guess what i wanted to find out is marine insurance as pleasant to deal with as Auto Insurance. for example my dad was hit last month on the highway in high traffic from behind after 2 cars behind him collided into him. there was minor damage to the back bumper of his car, they initially said they would charge him deductable, its high on his policy so the he would have to have paid 100% of the repair. Its injustice at the highest levels. anyways...

On monday ill be speaking to 2 guys who also worked at C&C for over 2 years to get their opinion on this from the photos. Ill let everyone know how things go. any other suggestions are more than welcome. Im new to this scene so every comment is valued. Thanks

 

[John]

marine insurance

Thanks Terry,

Im simply examining all the angles before i make my decision....I was simply asking about the worst case scanario where this cosmetic issue were to turn into something more. would the insurance honor the surveyros word or would i have a tough time like it is sometimes with lets say Auto Insurance. s

I have Boat US and have a major claim going - replacement of a roller furling mast. The cost will be upwards of $15,000, and Boat US has agreed to pay it. This is despite the fact that there are some questions as to responsibility. My experience with them is excellent, I'd say. Very different from auto insurance.
(Incidentally, I figured once that I must spend well into five figures per year on insurance of various types, and this is the first time I've ever had a major claim. It just goes to show overall how much money we flush down a rat-hole just in case...)

 

[KRUSEN]

Car insurance...If they hit your dad, their insurance pays, no deductible.