We're about to take advantage of winter discounts and get a new main and genoa for our H25.5. We're in the cruising/racing category and the budget dictates dacron for a racing main (more roach) and a 133 genoa (we're keeping our 110 for 15 kts). Summers here include a range of 2 to 25 kts. typically, and the 25.5 is a tender boat. We've been to Doyle on this site, and UK sailmakers. The dilemma has two parts... 1. Cloth weight...Doyle says 5.9oz for the main and 4.9oz for the genoa, quite certain these are the best weights for this boat. UK comes up with 7.2 on the main and 6.5 on the genny, also quite certain these are the proper weights, saying that production boats come with sails that are too light. 2. The UK sails are $1000.00 more for the pair! I don't think that's a function of cloth weight, as up or down an ounce meant little to the final price...they maintain that in all key areas their sails are simply built tougher. Having felt the different cloths, there's a substantial difference in how they feel. I've heard lots about the weight issue (evidently not enough!)...lighter is better for racing in light air, heavier will hold a shape better in stronger winds, heavier is not good aloft, lighter stretches sooner...Yikes! So I'm asking for the much-valued opinions on this site on any of these points in terms of performance and longevity. Will heavier cloth be overkill? Will the lighter cloth perform better in 12 knots and less, and hold it's shape as well over five years or so? Do production boats come with sail weights that are insufficient, or do they have it about right? I'd sure like to get it right. Thanks all.
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almost like a shell game!
Brad: There is a lot more than weight of the cloth to constructing a sail. The sail cloth quality is probably more critical than the weight. When you are getting quotes (and you may need more) have them specify the specific cloth (brand/make) that they are using. The more you know the more they are willing to tell you about their sail making process. I honestly do not believe that one loft is going to charge you that much difference in price "IF" everything is equal. If may be difficult to tell what is REALLY equal.
Brad: There is a lot more than weight of the cloth to constructing a sail. The sail cloth quality is probably more critical than the weight. When you are getting quotes (and you may need more) have them specify the specific cloth (brand/make) that they are using. The more you know the more they are willing to tell you about their sail making process. I honestly do not believe that one loft is going to charge you that much difference in price "IF" everything is equal. If may be difficult to tell what is REALLY equal.
Brad
Having owned and raced the 25.5 you need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Like Steve said you need to make sure everything is equal. By the way I sell UK sails as a fun thing to do and can cut you a great deal on a set of UK Sails. I also have a ASY from my 25.5 that I kept and we have used it 3 times and will make you a nice deal on it. E-mail me off site and we can discuss this more at cruckstuhl@woh.rr.com Cliff Ruckstuhl 419 423 1969 A few more thoughts, I have looked at the sails on this site also and I don't think it is the same stuff as what Uk is telling you. Allot needs to be looked at when ordering sails you need to know what cloth you are comparing and who's cloth it is. 6 oz Dacron is 6 oz Dacron but where it all gets different is the weave of the cloth. Also where are the Doyle sails being made Allot of these places will show you a wonderful price but than if you dig a little you will find out it is made in Hong Kong and it is not being made with the same cloth that UK or North would be using. The biggest factor in Dacron Sails is how long will the shape last?? A Dacron sail will lose it's fast shap after just one season yes it will last 20 years and will still move the boat but after two years it should be recut. I believe for the money the UK Tape Drive Silver is the best made sail out ther and after owning them on my 25.5 and now getting them for my 28.5 they are worth the extra money. On my boat the 28.5 ther is with the winter discounts the Tape Drive is only $400.00 more. In the big picture it will be faster lighter and and after you get the Dacron recut once you will have spent the same amount of money. We had a UK Tape Drive Main,155 and a 98. We were the boat to beat and on the last day of racing we needed to run 4 races and beat a 26.5 that was so very hard to beat 3 out of 4 all because if adding a UK Tape Drive 98%. I also think a 133 would be a mistake on the light air days you will wish for the 155 and when it starts to blow a little put up the 98 and you will be tought to beat. For the reaching legs you could pop the ASY that I have and you will be the boat to beat. My ASY. is a Tri-Radel Racing Asy Spinnaker. If you were to buy it new the list on it is around $1600.00 But we have only used it three time and it is too small for the 28.5. Cliff
Having owned and raced the 25.5 you need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Like Steve said you need to make sure everything is equal. By the way I sell UK sails as a fun thing to do and can cut you a great deal on a set of UK Sails. I also have a ASY from my 25.5 that I kept and we have used it 3 times and will make you a nice deal on it. E-mail me off site and we can discuss this more at cruckstuhl@woh.rr.com Cliff Ruckstuhl 419 423 1969 A few more thoughts, I have looked at the sails on this site also and I don't think it is the same stuff as what Uk is telling you. Allot needs to be looked at when ordering sails you need to know what cloth you are comparing and who's cloth it is. 6 oz Dacron is 6 oz Dacron but where it all gets different is the weave of the cloth. Also where are the Doyle sails being made Allot of these places will show you a wonderful price but than if you dig a little you will find out it is made in Hong Kong and it is not being made with the same cloth that UK or North would be using. The biggest factor in Dacron Sails is how long will the shape last?? A Dacron sail will lose it's fast shap after just one season yes it will last 20 years and will still move the boat but after two years it should be recut. I believe for the money the UK Tape Drive Silver is the best made sail out ther and after owning them on my 25.5 and now getting them for my 28.5 they are worth the extra money. On my boat the 28.5 ther is with the winter discounts the Tape Drive is only $400.00 more. In the big picture it will be faster lighter and and after you get the Dacron recut once you will have spent the same amount of money. We had a UK Tape Drive Main,155 and a 98. We were the boat to beat and on the last day of racing we needed to run 4 races and beat a 26.5 that was so very hard to beat 3 out of 4 all because if adding a UK Tape Drive 98%. I also think a 133 would be a mistake on the light air days you will wish for the 155 and when it starts to blow a little put up the 98 and you will be tought to beat. For the reaching legs you could pop the ASY that I have and you will be the boat to beat. My ASY. is a Tri-Radel Racing Asy Spinnaker. If you were to buy it new the list on it is around $1600.00 But we have only used it three time and it is too small for the 28.5. Cliff
Chandlery sails not HK
Just wanted to mention that the sails in our chandlery are not made in Hong Kong. We use lofts in California, Forida, and New York, depending on which is closest to our customer.
Just wanted to mention that the sails in our chandlery are not made in Hong Kong. We use lofts in California, Forida, and New York, depending on which is closest to our customer.
Out of Bounds
Phil Brought it to my attention that the Doyle sails are not made over seas but are made right here at home. I didn't mean to disrespect any sails sold on the site. We just need to make sure we are comparing apples to apples when it comes to sail's and the cloth. Sorry for the miss direction. Cliff Ruckstuhl
Phil Brought it to my attention that the Doyle sails are not made over seas but are made right here at home. I didn't mean to disrespect any sails sold on the site. We just need to make sure we are comparing apples to apples when it comes to sail's and the cloth. Sorry for the miss direction. Cliff Ruckstuhl
Sails
Brad, you live in City island NY correct? Well, I know for a fact that there is a Doyle Loft there and a UK loft there. Why don't you go and talk to a sailmaker and let them help you. You are more fortunate than some, in that you have the professional resources avilable in your back yard. Most sailmakers are willing to spend some time with prospective customers, and you may actually learn some things and find a sailmaker you can trust, not only for new sails but for regular service.
Brad, you live in City island NY correct? Well, I know for a fact that there is a Doyle Loft there and a UK loft there. Why don't you go and talk to a sailmaker and let them help you. You are more fortunate than some, in that you have the professional resources avilable in your back yard. Most sailmakers are willing to spend some time with prospective customers, and you may actually learn some things and find a sailmaker you can trust, not only for new sails but for regular service.
Sail Decision Ideas
Okay, here are some items for thought with regard to a new sail decision. Everybody who buys a new sail is really impressed with how much better the boat performs with the new shape. What this says is shape is really important. Minimizing weight aloft is important too, but the question is, would the reduction in performance of a few more pounds aloft be worse than the new sail shape? On a Hunter, I don't think the slightly little bit more weight would even be noticable. On a Hobie 33, maybe. Realize too, that the bulk of the weight will be close to the boom. The heavier sail cloth, as you mentioned, adds very little to the overall cost of the sail. In return, the sail will last longer while keeping a better shape. If you race in the Olympics or in a world class event then weight aloft sould be considered, but for local regattas, well, I don't think it's that significant. There are just so many other factors that rank much higher: Good start, tactics, sail trim, fast bottom, good PHRF number, etc. Is there substantial difference in performance of sail cloth weights? No (for the jib or main and for the same brand and model of cloth). Naturally a spinnaker will be impacted with weight between .5 oz, .75 oz, and 1.5 oz. Editorial comment: The "Cruising/racing" category is bunk. How much credit do they give for big battery banks, stout anchor package, and all the good stuff one takes along when cruising? Zip. It's a racing category, pure and simple. If you're only going to race then try to strip as much weight off the boat as is legally possible. 150 vs 135? I'd opt for the 150. The 135 isn't far enough away from the blade (your 98 or on my boat, a 110). Put some zig-zag lines on the bow life lines and get a prefeder to help with changing sails. Standardly, the sails on "sail away" boat packages are of less quality than what you'd be buying from one of the lofts you're going to. It'd probably be their cheapest sail - ask the sailmaker. Hope this helps a bit.
Okay, here are some items for thought with regard to a new sail decision. Everybody who buys a new sail is really impressed with how much better the boat performs with the new shape. What this says is shape is really important. Minimizing weight aloft is important too, but the question is, would the reduction in performance of a few more pounds aloft be worse than the new sail shape? On a Hunter, I don't think the slightly little bit more weight would even be noticable. On a Hobie 33, maybe. Realize too, that the bulk of the weight will be close to the boom. The heavier sail cloth, as you mentioned, adds very little to the overall cost of the sail. In return, the sail will last longer while keeping a better shape. If you race in the Olympics or in a world class event then weight aloft sould be considered, but for local regattas, well, I don't think it's that significant. There are just so many other factors that rank much higher: Good start, tactics, sail trim, fast bottom, good PHRF number, etc. Is there substantial difference in performance of sail cloth weights? No (for the jib or main and for the same brand and model of cloth). Naturally a spinnaker will be impacted with weight between .5 oz, .75 oz, and 1.5 oz. Editorial comment: The "Cruising/racing" category is bunk. How much credit do they give for big battery banks, stout anchor package, and all the good stuff one takes along when cruising? Zip. It's a racing category, pure and simple. If you're only going to race then try to strip as much weight off the boat as is legally possible. 150 vs 135? I'd opt for the 150. The 135 isn't far enough away from the blade (your 98 or on my boat, a 110). Put some zig-zag lines on the bow life lines and get a prefeder to help with changing sails. Standardly, the sails on "sail away" boat packages are of less quality than what you'd be buying from one of the lofts you're going to. It'd probably be their cheapest sail - ask the sailmaker. Hope this helps a bit.
Here is my expert advice.
Read the "Sailmakers Apprentice" to learn about cloths and materials. Talk to a lot of lofts at least five. Call them on the phone. Have your measurements, The wind strengths you want to sail, and your budget ready. Once you have selected two you like, (hopefully local to you) Get them a specification and ask for quotes, then go back and ask them why their quotes are different. If you race a lot the whole deal becomes easier Call Sabresails or who ever makes the winningest sails in your area and tell them who you want to beat. I had a lot of fun buying my new main and I found that the prices are similar when you are actually comparing apples to apples.
Read the "Sailmakers Apprentice" to learn about cloths and materials. Talk to a lot of lofts at least five. Call them on the phone. Have your measurements, The wind strengths you want to sail, and your budget ready. Once you have selected two you like, (hopefully local to you) Get them a specification and ask for quotes, then go back and ask them why their quotes are different. If you race a lot the whole deal becomes easier Call Sabresails or who ever makes the winningest sails in your area and tell them who you want to beat. I had a lot of fun buying my new main and I found that the prices are similar when you are actually comparing apples to apples.
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