Hi all, I'm in the process of purchasing a Hunter 28.5 and I'm having reservations about the broker/sellers. The boat was listed with a very nice sail inventory. However, when I hired a local sail loft to survey the sails, two of them were missing relative to the inventory that was specified on the listing. However here was an additional old tired UK 155% genoa in the inventory that was not on the listing. One of the missing sails was a 2003 UK Tape Drive 155% Genoa, and the other missing sail was a Sobstad 135% mylar Genoa (year unknown). These two were the first two headsails specified in the listing. That tells me that they were probably the best headsails of the bunch. What the broker and seller are telling me is that there were mistakes in the listing. The 2003 UK tape drive in the listing is really the old tired 1990 UK Tape Drive, and the 135% Sobstad mylar doesn't exist. At one point, the broker said the 135% mylar headsail was cut down and turned into a 90% headsail that is in the inventory. Problem with that explanation is that the 90% headsail is a Johnson "dacron" sail, not a Sobstad mylar. This boat was seriously raced and I'm pretty confident that the owners knew what they were doing when they put the listing together. My take on this is that they obviously decided to sell or keep the two good head sails and threw the old tired one in there to try and make up for it. There are still some good sails in the inventory, but I'm just having trouble trusting them now. Any advice out there as to how I should deal with this? My first reaction was to back out of the deal altogether. Another idea is to demand a price reduction based on the value of those two missing headsails. After all, my offer was based on what was in the listing. Does this inventory discrepency render the "offer contract" null and void? If it's reasonable to ask for a price reduction, can anyone suggest a ballpark value on these missing sails? Any other suggestions on what I should do about this inventory issue? The other thing that's troubling me is the surveyor. I specifically asked that he call me before going to survey the boat because I wanted to be there when he does it. I just found out today that he already did the survey without me. I'm told he'll meet me at the boat to go over and explain his report. He has a good reputation and a fair amount(17 years) of experience as well as being a SAMS-AMS. Should I be concerned about this guy ditching me during the survey? This is my first purchase of a boat where I've had to go through this process. I've owned a number of smaller boats. I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of boats, but I'm a little concerned about having to have so much trust in people I don't know who only see me as a fee or a commission. Any thoughts or experiences you can share with me regarding this process? Thanks, Dave
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Not uncommon
I'd suggest you get the sail loft to quote you a price of the missing sails and reduce your offer an equivalent amount. You'll end up a winner on that one with the equivalent $$4 in new sails. Regarding the surveyor, it's starting to get to be their busy season so he may have had an opportunity to do your's unscheduled. As long as he offered to re-do the survey with you, take him up on it before making your final decision. Don
I'd suggest you get the sail loft to quote you a price of the missing sails and reduce your offer an equivalent amount. You'll end up a winner on that one with the equivalent $$4 in new sails. Regarding the surveyor, it's starting to get to be their busy season so he may have had an opportunity to do your's unscheduled. As long as he offered to re-do the survey with you, take him up on it before making your final decision. Don
sail inventroy
Dave,as far as the sail inventory goes you should get what was in the listing reguardless if it was cut down or not or any other story the broker comes up with. If your offer was made on the listing and it changed so should you offer. It is a contract for sale and binding on both parties.It is very similar to real estate and what is listed goes with the home (if not excluded in the listing)IMO it does null and void the sale as the seller is not able to provide what was offered. The short of this is that it can be renogotiated and a compromise worked out.Just remember you can walk if you need to. Don't be bullied by the broker or owner they both want your money !
Dave,as far as the sail inventory goes you should get what was in the listing reguardless if it was cut down or not or any other story the broker comes up with. If your offer was made on the listing and it changed so should you offer. It is a contract for sale and binding on both parties.It is very similar to real estate and what is listed goes with the home (if not excluded in the listing)IMO it does null and void the sale as the seller is not able to provide what was offered. The short of this is that it can be renogotiated and a compromise worked out.Just remember you can walk if you need to. Don't be bullied by the broker or owner they both want your money !
Thanks!
Thanks for the responses. I will be going down today to meet with the surveyor. I'll make a determination if I want to stay in it after that. If I decide to take the boat, it'll only be after a reduction in price for the missing sails and any repairs needed as specified in the survey. Again, thanks for your input. Dave
Thanks for the responses. I will be going down today to meet with the surveyor. I'll make a determination if I want to stay in it after that. If I decide to take the boat, it'll only be after a reduction in price for the missing sails and any repairs needed as specified in the survey. Again, thanks for your input. Dave
Sail Sizes for 28.5
I agree with the previous postings; you should get what you are paying for. One clarification, the 'cut down' sail would appear to be the original Johnson 110 that comes with the boat. A serious racer would want at least a 155% deck sweeper in decent shape and mylar or mylar /tape drive will be the medium to light air choice. I added a mylar/dacron laminated triradial 135% deck sweeper for the merium heavy air range, and we go to the 110 and really flatten the main when the wind goes above the mid 20's. If your 28.5 is a shoal draft, she will be more tender and you'll downsize those headsails and/or reef sooner. That cut down 90 may allow you to add jib sheeting tracks inside the spreader base on the cabin top if you really want a 'blade' to point higher in high wind, but the old dacron may not take the loads. Enjoy the boat after you settle up on a fair price for the down graded sails.
I agree with the previous postings; you should get what you are paying for. One clarification, the 'cut down' sail would appear to be the original Johnson 110 that comes with the boat. A serious racer would want at least a 155% deck sweeper in decent shape and mylar or mylar /tape drive will be the medium to light air choice. I added a mylar/dacron laminated triradial 135% deck sweeper for the merium heavy air range, and we go to the 110 and really flatten the main when the wind goes above the mid 20's. If your 28.5 is a shoal draft, she will be more tender and you'll downsize those headsails and/or reef sooner. That cut down 90 may allow you to add jib sheeting tracks inside the spreader base on the cabin top if you really want a 'blade' to point higher in high wind, but the old dacron may not take the loads. Enjoy the boat after you settle up on a fair price for the down graded sails.
I thought most surveyors
actually want the buyer there with them during the survey (although I can see why they would rather do it alone.) At least that's what I've been told. I would be very upset that he didn't call if I had asked/planned on being there (which I always do.) Not sure how I'd handle it, but I would not be happy.
actually want the buyer there with them during the survey (although I can see why they would rather do it alone.) At least that's what I've been told. I would be very upset that he didn't call if I had asked/planned on being there (which I always do.) Not sure how I'd handle it, but I would not be happy.
Update
Just got back from meeting the surveyor. We spent close to an hour and a half going over everything. Seems it was an opportunity thing for him last Saturday when he did the survey. He was more than willing to spend as much time as I needed today to review. I think I may have jumped the gun on that one now that I met with him. As for the survey results, there are some issues I'll have to take into consideration before I go any further with this purchase. The decks are pretty wet around all of the stantions. The cockpit floor is also very wet around the base of the pedestal. He said it's pretty normal to see a little moisture here and there, but this boat shows signicantly more should probably be repaired. There's one small delam spot (8-10" diameter), the rest is just wet. There's also some gel coat cracks on the hull on both sides foward of the chainplates. They're mostly above the waterline and caused by the fiberglass flexing around the interior bulkheads. He said "officially I have to recommend that you get it fixed", although he also said "it's not a structural issue and it would not be prone to any kind of catastrophic failure". I knew the boat would need a little TLC (cleaning and new accent stripes, etc.), but now I'm wondering if this "wet deck" problem is more than I want to get into. The appraised value from the surveyor was $500 less than my offer, yet I'm still much lower than nada and kbb value estimates. Would it be worth spending some money on this to replace the wet core in the deck? That's assuming I can negotiate some more money off the price. Has anyone had this kind of work done? Other than the moisture and the hull crazing, the rest of the boat is in decent shape. He says the engine was clean and looked well cared for. Extra filters, belts and such on board. The cutlass bearing has some play, but he said it could go another season before replacing. There's a Martec folding prop installed and two fixed spares on board. Rigging looks good except for a bent turnbuckle on the backstay. What do you guys think? Is the moisture problem something I should steer clear of and just continue looking for another boat? Thanks for your input, Dave
Just got back from meeting the surveyor. We spent close to an hour and a half going over everything. Seems it was an opportunity thing for him last Saturday when he did the survey. He was more than willing to spend as much time as I needed today to review. I think I may have jumped the gun on that one now that I met with him. As for the survey results, there are some issues I'll have to take into consideration before I go any further with this purchase. The decks are pretty wet around all of the stantions. The cockpit floor is also very wet around the base of the pedestal. He said it's pretty normal to see a little moisture here and there, but this boat shows signicantly more should probably be repaired. There's one small delam spot (8-10" diameter), the rest is just wet. There's also some gel coat cracks on the hull on both sides foward of the chainplates. They're mostly above the waterline and caused by the fiberglass flexing around the interior bulkheads. He said "officially I have to recommend that you get it fixed", although he also said "it's not a structural issue and it would not be prone to any kind of catastrophic failure". I knew the boat would need a little TLC (cleaning and new accent stripes, etc.), but now I'm wondering if this "wet deck" problem is more than I want to get into. The appraised value from the surveyor was $500 less than my offer, yet I'm still much lower than nada and kbb value estimates. Would it be worth spending some money on this to replace the wet core in the deck? That's assuming I can negotiate some more money off the price. Has anyone had this kind of work done? Other than the moisture and the hull crazing, the rest of the boat is in decent shape. He says the engine was clean and looked well cared for. Extra filters, belts and such on board. The cutlass bearing has some play, but he said it could go another season before replacing. There's a Martec folding prop installed and two fixed spares on board. Rigging looks good except for a bent turnbuckle on the backstay. What do you guys think? Is the moisture problem something I should steer clear of and just continue looking for another boat? Thanks for your input, Dave
One more thing
Dave Not to add to your dilema but you may have a problem with insurance should you choose not to fix the hull rot, delamination and crazing. I infer from your questions this may be your first boat. Before you can get insurance, any underwriter will 1. want to see the written survey, and 2. want a statement that all defects identified in the survey have been corrected. Without both, you will not be able to obtain insurance - it may not be by choice that you don't fix everything identified - thought you should understand that first. Don Illusion
Dave Not to add to your dilema but you may have a problem with insurance should you choose not to fix the hull rot, delamination and crazing. I infer from your questions this may be your first boat. Before you can get insurance, any underwriter will 1. want to see the written survey, and 2. want a statement that all defects identified in the survey have been corrected. Without both, you will not be able to obtain insurance - it may not be by choice that you don't fix everything identified - thought you should understand that first. Don Illusion
Re: one more thing
Thanks Don. That was something that didn't occur to me. I did contact my insurance company for a quote and they stated that they would need a survey. Seems only logical that they may turn me down for coverage if the boat doesn't "pass" in their eyes. Can't fault them for that. No, this isn't my first boat, but it is my first boat of this size. I currently have a Catalina 22 that I've had since 92. Before that was a couple of beachcats and a number of small powerboats over the years. I've never been through this type of purchase process with a broker and surveyor though. If nothing else, I'm learning quite a bit. If I decide to walk, I'll do a much better job of inspecting a boat myself before getting this far into the process again. I thought I had a pretty good feel for the shape of this boat, but the moisture problem definately caught me off guard. Thanks, Dave
Thanks Don. That was something that didn't occur to me. I did contact my insurance company for a quote and they stated that they would need a survey. Seems only logical that they may turn me down for coverage if the boat doesn't "pass" in their eyes. Can't fault them for that. No, this isn't my first boat, but it is my first boat of this size. I currently have a Catalina 22 that I've had since 92. Before that was a couple of beachcats and a number of small powerboats over the years. I've never been through this type of purchase process with a broker and surveyor though. If nothing else, I'm learning quite a bit. If I decide to walk, I'll do a much better job of inspecting a boat myself before getting this far into the process again. I thought I had a pretty good feel for the shape of this boat, but the moisture problem definately caught me off guard. Thanks, Dave
Agree - have the yard bid on the deck problems
This is a straightforwad and common issue. If the yard is competent for fiberglass work, they will give you a good bid, and the deck and cockpit will be good as new. Take all of the important shortages and repair quotes, and reduce your bid by that amount. Then, if you want the boat, offer the reduced price. If not, walk - it's your decision! David Lady Lillie
This is a straightforwad and common issue. If the yard is competent for fiberglass work, they will give you a good bid, and the deck and cockpit will be good as new. Take all of the important shortages and repair quotes, and reduce your bid by that amount. Then, if you want the boat, offer the reduced price. If not, walk - it's your decision! David Lady Lillie
Giving it a try
I'm going to give it a shot. I talked to the broker today and he indicated right away that he thinks the seller will probably go for it. He's going to have his fiberglass shop put a bid together for the repairs to the decks and hull. They're a large outfit and from what I hear, they do good work. I'll post an update when I get more info. Thanks for all your input.
I'm going to give it a shot. I talked to the broker today and he indicated right away that he thinks the seller will probably go for it. He's going to have his fiberglass shop put a bid together for the repairs to the decks and hull. They're a large outfit and from what I hear, they do good work. I'll post an update when I get more info. Thanks for all your input.
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