Buying a Hunter has been a frustrating experience

[Eric]

Response

Since Hunter monitors this site I think it would be good PR if they acknowledged this issue. I'm not asking that they state any remedies since that is between the owner, dealer and Hunter but hopefully they will not just leave this hanging out there.I have been seriously thinking about moving up in size but perhaps now also in manufaturer.

 

[Phil Herring]

You may have noticed

Hunter doesn't post on this site; not in any official capacity, anyway.However, I have been told they contacted Bernie. We'll see what we hear.

 

[Russ King]

Buyer Beware

Phil is right, every manufacturer has problems. I buy computer equipment all the time. Although the national DOA rate (doesn't work when it arrives) is around 10%, I think there have been only 2 or 3 out of 200 or so had a problem in the last few years. Part of reason is the dealer (checks things before shipping), part is buying quality name brands, and part is pure blind luck.I haven't heard any good things about any of the low-end products from the well-known boat manufacturers. Costs are cut (labour is a big cost), quality is poor, and the magazine reviewers (Sail/Cruising World) commonly state that the overall fit and finish of the low end (22' - 27') sailboats is poor compared to the larger models. Hunter, Catalina, W.D. Schock, and others have been mentioned.Part of the problem is that there is less profit in the smaller boats (and more competition), so quality is sacrificed. Part of the problem is workplace morale (the "I don't care, it's only a job" syndrome). The people who build these boats typically are minimum-wage workers. It must be depressing to build big expensive boats (even the smaller ones) that the worker could never afford.Bernie, I appreciate your problem, and I sure sympathize. After reading your post, I vowed to only buy a new boat "off the lot", so I can inspect it before buying.Bernie, maybe you will get a different boat. But does anyone doubt that the old one will be repaired and fobbed off (sold to) some other unsuspecting soul? As a new boat, with a "new" price?

 

[Greg Stebbins]

Or Phil is not right...

Ok, we’re not talking about ol’ Zeke Hunter building a few boats for his buddies in his shed. Hunter is a Corporation. I’ll bet Hunter has expensive plaques all over the walls in their corporate offices proclaiming their absolute commitment to delivering quality products to their customers. If you were to check, I’ll bet every executive, manager and supervisor in the place can quote chapter and verse from at least 2 quality systems as well as producing pounds of charts and graphs on how wonderfully they are doing. In total, it’s called “Executive Lip Service Without Commitment” and it will permeate a company faster than the flu. It just about sank the American automotive industry 25 years ago.Now, let’s get on to the meaning of quality for a minute. Quality has nothing to do with the highest dollar value materials. In quality terms, fiberboard and teak are the same. The specific measure for quality can be Form, Fit and Function. Quality is only one of three measures of customer satisfaction. The measures are Quality, Cost and Schedule. I don’t think I need to go into the details of how profoundly Hunter failed Mr. LaScala here. Read his post with “Form, Fit and Function” in mind and note the missed delivery dates (Schedule). Do you think Mr. LaScala considers the price (Cost) he paid for what he received and is continuing to pay in missed opportunities to be acceptable?After you read Mr. LaScala’s post, will you agree with me that the 260 Hunter delivered to him is a piece of junk? How do you think it got out of the factory? I can estimate that it went through at least 8 inspections after the seam damage was done and never mind all the other workmanship issues. Do you think that no one saw the problem during any of those inspections? Do you think the inspections were skipped? And most important of all, do you really think that this 260 is an isolated case? Given that their quality system is functioning, that would be a catastrophic cascading quality systems failure for a single unit and the probabilities are in the millions to one. If I had taken delivery of a 260 recently, I’d remove the rub rail before I took it out again as well as do a top to bottom close inspection of the complete boat.Finally, It is unnecessary and expensive to deliver a product not to customer’s requirements. Rework, scrap and warranty efforts cost Hunter about 20% of sales and that cast is passed on to you, believe me! Hunter has a requirement to deliver the products as defined by express and implied conditions presented in the Hunter sales literature. I, like you, own a Hunter product. I want this American Corporation to deliver the product they advertise every time, no exceptions.

 

[Phil Herring]

Sure, we all want that

I'm not saying (and I don't believe anyone else is, either) that buyers shouldn't get what they want, or that the boat delviered to Bernie is or should be acceptable. In fact, I agree with much that has been said.However, where I get lost is the leap from a defective boat to 'Executive Lip Service Without Commitment'.Let me ask you this: If you knock over a drink at home, does that mean you are not committed to cleanliness and sanitation?(damn... I knew I should have joined Debate Club in high school...)

 

[Greg Stebbins]

Well now Phil....

Remember that this boat got to the water.If I spilled a drink and let it set for a week without cleaning, then I'd say my commitment is a little weak (or my wife's out of town.)Sorry about the tirade, I've been building aircraft for 18 yr. Quality failure means random death and destruction here. We tend to take it very very seriously.GregYea, it's a Hunter! what's it to ya buddy!!

 

[Rick Webb]

Where do these numbers come from?

Greg has mentioned some figures as to what the poor quality Quality Program at Hunter Marine is costing them. I am curious as to where those figures come from and what their Legal Department is doing to torpedo the company?

 

[Greg Stebbins]

Rick Numbers are

The basic numbers are from Crosby. "Quality is free" is a good book to start with. The quality industry and associations can also furnish tons of back-up by industry if required. I'm being a little conceritive really, for manufacturing I believe 28-35% of gross is the bench markGreg

 

[Rick Webb]

Thanks but no thanks

I have enough books and other materials on quality to sink my boat. It was not clear if the numbers you put out were for Hunter specifically, for a boat manufacturer in general or what. As far as aircraft go we have received ones with pretty big problems. From tools left behind to the wrong components installed or simply not built to spec so it can happen anywhere. Thankfully this anywhere was at the dock and not three miles out or at 600 kts and 10,000 feet. The true measure of the company will be in what it does to rectify this situation and to see that it is prevented again. I would expect at the minimum a letter to go out to all of the 260 buyers that might be affected to get with their dealers to have it checked out or get directions to do it themselves. As for the yahoo who did the assembly work there his coworkers are probably about ready to take him trolling for alligators. I am sure it was not a pleasant place to work this week.Bernie, hang in there man I am certain they will take care of you right, let us know what they do for you. Look at the bright side you are the most famous guy on this site.

 

[Greg Stebbins]

And as for the"lawyer" thing.....

Rick, I'm not to impressed with what the legal profession has done to corporate America. In far to many corporations, doing the right thing toward a customer get overthrown by the legal department because it could put the corporation in a weak position in future, potential, possible, litigation. I hate to admit it but I've been there and didn't protest.Admit nothing, talk to no one - America!Greg

 

[Russell]

Whats the hull number?

Given that everyone has the opinion that if Hunter does take back your seriously defective "boat" (how can they call it a boat even though it won't float)they will "fix it" and resell it to the next buyer. How about posting the hull number to save anyone on the site the agony you have gone through.Just a thoughtRussellS/V Allie Kat

 

[bob]

kudos for hunter service in practical sailor

here's a ray of light to cheer up those 260 or other hunter owners who've been rightly disturbed by bernie's frustrating experience....i've just received my new edition of practical sailor....the mag runs a "where credit is due column" to feature those manufacturers who've gone beyond the call of duty (and legal obligations)...hunter is featured in this issue...ps quotes "our previous boat was a hunter 29.5, purchased new in 1994 (our boat before that was a hunter too). we owned it for five years and had work (after the warranty period) which caused me to deal with hunter customer service. issues included repair of voids in the gelcoat, steering cable sheave mounting, and a few others. the work was done in st augustine and the factory paid for everthing - no questions. i must say that hunter is top drawer in my book. the products are well-designed and well-constructed, and the customer service, even after warranty, is first class."this positive report obviously does not relieve bernie's pain and frustration...but it bolsters my belief that hunter is a good company that will do the right thing...hang in there, bernie and get hunter to give you a new boat....bob h40.5 s/v reliance

 

[Dave Condon]

I will go to bat

Bernie;I sadly read your post and some of the other comments.First, Hunter does use excellent gear and the mold shop folks do a tremendous job as they are experienced. The warranty department is excellent and if you have a problem, they will help the customer to resolve the complaint if the dealer doesn't. You may consider me biased, but I have and will always stand behing the Hunter product. As for my knowledge, I wrote the book on these boats.First, I have told Magic Tilt on numerous occasions to extend the electrical connector on the trailer. Please send them a letter to that effect. As for the boat, you need to have the dealer fix it. There are several suggestions to follow which I hope others will look at. Regarding the transom, remove the rub rail on the back. Caulk the screw holes and those not being used with 5200. Make sure the deck to hull seam joint is ok and if not, fix it first. The second area to check is the compression post base. Take the cover plate off underneatht thetable and observe that. See if the caulking oozed out between the plate and the fiberglass base. Add 5200 if needed. For the older boats, see if there are any holes in the base of the compression post on the front and back and if so, put # 10 screws in and again with 5200. Put sealant around the big bolt too. The third place is the gasket material underneath the washer on the wing nut for opening andf closing the tank.Check the rudder and the centerboard areas for any voids and so forthe. Make sure the mast step plate is centered. Theree are othe numerous items that I check for when commissioning. If you have any questions, call Gregg Emerson and he can give you my number and I will do what I can to help you. I will be at Hunter next week voicing my concernbs again and with your post, this gives me ammunition to go to the right folks. If the dealers will nit pick the boats like I do, you will not have any problems. Maybe a dealers meeting for the small boat dealers may be in order to address these issues. I will go to bat so others will not experience this.You the customer is very important.Crazy Dave

 

[Bob England]

Phil, I disagree

Phil, I don't agree with your position on this issue. Boats aren't ballpoint pens or yoyos. The defect in this boat is too serious to pass off with an, "Oh, well, everyone makes a mistake occasionally." As another post said, this must have gone through several inspections without being remedied. I think it is an indictment of the whole Hunter QC process. If you read the original post carefully, you can see that the real problem with this boat is probably a warped mold. The area where there are lots of extra screws is exactly where the upper and lower molds are seperated. I'll bet the "extra" screws were put in there in an attempt to pull the mismatched parts together. And, the holes probably don't line up for the same reason. This probably can't be fixed, and, if I am right, this boat is most likely scrap. Sorry to come down so hard on Hunter, and I regret if this makes the new owner feel worse, but a sinking boat is serious business. Also, I've seen evidence of "bad worker attitude" in my 1989 H30, which I've mentioned in a previous post. There's *no* excuse for what happened on this 260, and somebody at Hunter needs to smarten up. I hope you don't consider this "flame mail" since it is an honest expresion of my opinion. And, yes, I do believe that on average, Hunter makes a good boat and a good value for the money. But, in boats, a good batting average isn't good enough.Bob.

 

[Guest]

Just Bought a H240

I assume that the H240 goes through essentially the same manufacturing process at the same factory. I have just taken delivery of a H240 and been out twice.I haven't noticed any leakage. It looks like the basic design of the H240 and H260 is the same so the quality issue applies to both. Would appreciate if anyone has who has looked at the H240 joint would let us know if there any problems.. I'm going to look under the rub rail to check joint.

 

[David Cox]

To Dave...

After going through three months of flustrations and aggrivation last year when I bought my new H240, I understand where Bernie is coming from. My multiple problems where not as serious as his, but with a new boat whos suppose to have multiple problems ( missing parts, wrong mast, mast strut broke, plates pulling out of the deck etc. etc.) However, I don't feel he should be the one who has to fix it. Why should he have to remove a rub rail off a new boat to fix a leak that should have been done at the factory. Hunter should make this boat right and show they are commited to customer satisfaction. They will get return customers that way.David Coxs/v Devine Spark

 

[Rick Rhoads]

Had Similar Problems With My Boat

I purchased a new Hunter 260 which also suffered from factory quality control issues. Thankfully, Hunter had Dave Condon as a dealer to 'bail' them out.My boat had the same poor workmanship on the hull deck joint on the aft right side. According to my dealer, who fixed the problem, there were 30+ (multiple type) screws unsuccessfully trying to hold the boat together. My boat leaked, but only when healing heavy to the right.My boat had the mast compression post issue mentioned in other posted items on this site. It leaked here as well because of missing screws, lack of sealant, etc. My dealer fixed this problem as well.My mast wouldn't raise properly because of some flaw between the mast and the 'a-frame'. My dealer fixed this problem.My trailer brakes would lock up. I practically ripped my transmission out of my truck 'dragging' the boat back from St. Augustine Fl. to North Carolina. My dealer fixed this problem (although it took two attempts - nevertheless, it did get fixed.) After the previous problems, I was getting frustrated. Hunter would not replace the trailer, but would repair it.Of course none of these fixes cost me any money, in fact, my dealer threw in numerous freebies during the process.As a side note, my boat was a tiller, had the dealer convert it to wheel, did a great job, also installed dual batteries, shore power, etc.My dealer is not perfect. I lost a lot of sailing time waiting for these repairs. However, the dealer ultimately fixed all of my issues (even read about most of them on this site).My dealer has saved Hunter. I still have quality control issues that will seriously cause concern with my next upgrade (really like the 450 Passage).Thankfully, I was 'testing' my boat on a lake, and had water leaks that were manageable (abeit unacceptable - had many a 'conversation' about a trailersailer that won't float nor trailer.) By the way, my dealer is Dave Condon (aka 'Crazy Dave'). Thanks Dave.Hunter sent me some nice cupholders when I put all this in the surveys (two if I remember correctly) they sent me as part of their new boat purchase satisfaction program (at least the cupholders float). I hope Hunter seriously reviews their quality control issues before someone sinks.

 

[Patrick Ewing]

Reality vs Responsiblity

Reality is a product of individual commitment ( or lack of it ). It doesn't just happen. What I have seen is not acceptable in this case. The individual or individuals responsible for this shoddy work should be held to account for this in the civil if not the criminal courts. If they no longer work there, they should be found, prosecuted, and punished appropriately. These people endangered the lives of the people who use these boats. They also affected the value and reputation of all Hunter boats. I am not Bernie and I do not have to be Bernie to be furious that this has happened to him. Even if Hunter fixes this particular episode to everyone's immediate satisfaction, it still is a black mark which will take a lot more effort to be rid of in the way it affects the company reputation and that or their products.

 

[Dave Condon]

Responses

Hunter generally builds good boats but someone on the production line did not do his job right and unfortunately this was seen on Bernie,s boat. I have already started placing phone calls to Hunter and will meet with them next week armed wiht photos to get this corrected. In the meantime, please do a simple check as mentioned in the earlier post on the transom rub rails for both the 240 & 260. It is a simple fix and if you do not wish to do this, take your boat back to the dealer.Instead of complaining, help me to get this resolved. I am going to bat with Hunter and I can tell you that the boys in the warranty department are listeningloudly and will take care of you. When all said and done, the boats are goood boats but unfortunately have minor flaws causing big headaches. I will tell you that Dan will correct this.dave alias Crazy

 

[Jim Montgomery]

Something to cheer you up.

Bernie,As bad as your experience has been with your new Hunter, it could have been even worse. Take a look at my website which descibes my ordeal with Nor'Sea when I purchased a new Nor'Sea 27 from California boat builder Bob Eeg: Nor'Sea Sailboat Buyer's Guide at www.norsea27.com.My site may also influence your decision as to whether to sue or not.Jim@norsea27.com