Weird stuff happens. After inspecting the boat I made an offer of 25% under the asking price, as someone here suggested, insisting on survey, escrow and sea trial. The counter offer came back at $100 less than my offer with no escrow or sea trial. I said, "No way!", but over the phone it sounded like "Great, I'll bring over a deposit on the weekend." The weirdness continues. Two days later, before I deliver the deposit, I get an email from my surveyor saying the broker told him the offer was in place so he went ahead with the survey. I feel so left out. Anyway, the survey turned up a lot of stuff that needs fixing including a delaminated rudder so I'm looking into costs before making a decision. Brian
Buying a boat in winter. Part 2
- Thread starter Brian Scott
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and it continues....
Brian, I glad to hear you stuck to your guns about the survey. I timing of the events is a little awkward as is the owners and brokers behavior. The broker must have know that the counter offer said no sea trial and in my opinion the sea trial is part of the survey. He went ahead and told the surveyor to go ahead? I would not be happy with this at all, the survey should not have gone ahead until you had told him as you are the one paying his fee. The broker essentially renegotiated the deal with out you permission, If you decided not to buy the boat is the broker going to be responsible for his fee ? or at least a part of them ? I think there is something wrong here! However if you think the repair cost are reasonable and purchase the boat it is a mute point.... pay the surveyor. You are most likely responsible anyway(you did refer to his as your surveyor and if you had spoken to him to arrange the survey you may have "contracted" him, however the broker overstepped his authority to instruct him to go ahead with out a signed accepted purchase agreement or renegotiated SIGNED sales agreement . I'm not a lawyer but this is the type if thing lawyers make a living off of. If you decide not to buy this boat because of no sea trial I would try and get the broker to pay half and I'm surprised the surveyor did not ask to see a copy of the sales agreement to see a deal is in place and if for no other reason to verify hull number. Having only purchased three boats with survey all surveyors asked to see the sales agreement. You still have the issue of the sea trial and escrow to deal with. Not sure how to suggest you proceed with this problem but I would not pay in full until after sea trial. Did you sign or initial the counter offer??? As I recall this was not a cheap boat you were looking at. I would still try and salvage this deal unless the survey was a deal killer. However if you can't salvage it I would get a new broker and get rid of the one you are dealing with now. It would appear he is not doing you any favors. Another thought is some brokers will now act as a "buyers broker" You may want to consider getting one involved to help save the deal ! Remember time is on your side and a deal that goes wrong is a sales negative to any other broker looking to sell this boat. The brokers all know these things and will avoid a boat with issues and sales problems(at least the good brokers will as they are too busy to deal the games, but there are always the bottom feeders) There is ALWAYS another boat and another good deal,(maybe better) cut you loses and walk away if you have to. Tell your broker he may want to read this thread as well as your original post or better yet print out your post and all responses and hand them to him. Then give him a dictionary and tell him to look up the word "PUTZ" Good Luck and keep us posted !!
Brian, I glad to hear you stuck to your guns about the survey. I timing of the events is a little awkward as is the owners and brokers behavior. The broker must have know that the counter offer said no sea trial and in my opinion the sea trial is part of the survey. He went ahead and told the surveyor to go ahead? I would not be happy with this at all, the survey should not have gone ahead until you had told him as you are the one paying his fee. The broker essentially renegotiated the deal with out you permission, If you decided not to buy the boat is the broker going to be responsible for his fee ? or at least a part of them ? I think there is something wrong here! However if you think the repair cost are reasonable and purchase the boat it is a mute point.... pay the surveyor. You are most likely responsible anyway(you did refer to his as your surveyor and if you had spoken to him to arrange the survey you may have "contracted" him, however the broker overstepped his authority to instruct him to go ahead with out a signed accepted purchase agreement or renegotiated SIGNED sales agreement . I'm not a lawyer but this is the type if thing lawyers make a living off of. If you decide not to buy this boat because of no sea trial I would try and get the broker to pay half and I'm surprised the surveyor did not ask to see a copy of the sales agreement to see a deal is in place and if for no other reason to verify hull number. Having only purchased three boats with survey all surveyors asked to see the sales agreement. You still have the issue of the sea trial and escrow to deal with. Not sure how to suggest you proceed with this problem but I would not pay in full until after sea trial. Did you sign or initial the counter offer??? As I recall this was not a cheap boat you were looking at. I would still try and salvage this deal unless the survey was a deal killer. However if you can't salvage it I would get a new broker and get rid of the one you are dealing with now. It would appear he is not doing you any favors. Another thought is some brokers will now act as a "buyers broker" You may want to consider getting one involved to help save the deal ! Remember time is on your side and a deal that goes wrong is a sales negative to any other broker looking to sell this boat. The brokers all know these things and will avoid a boat with issues and sales problems(at least the good brokers will as they are too busy to deal the games, but there are always the bottom feeders) There is ALWAYS another boat and another good deal,(maybe better) cut you loses and walk away if you have to. Tell your broker he may want to read this thread as well as your original post or better yet print out your post and all responses and hand them to him. Then give him a dictionary and tell him to look up the word "PUTZ" Good Luck and keep us posted !!
Brian
Did the surveyor run the engine ? or just do a hull survey ? I find it hard to believe that broker and owner want you to buy this boat and pay in full(no escrow) without ever having even run the engine !!!
Did the surveyor run the engine ? or just do a hull survey ? I find it hard to believe that broker and owner want you to buy this boat and pay in full(no escrow) without ever having even run the engine !!!
What's so surprising?
It seems like the seller wants the deal to be concluded now, not in the spring. Your low offer is good for now, maybe not in the spring. Like the seller in this case, I would probably figure that an escrow arrangement would only lead to more negotiation in the spring. He is already giving up 25% off his asking price, but he may be willing to do that only if the entire transaction is concluded now, not in the spring. It sounds like you want the 25% off for entering into a transaction now, but you also want the escrow amount held back until the spring when you can do a sea trial and theoretically negotiate further off the price? What are you giving up for this concession by the seller? What if you tried offering a higher price under the condition that the sea trial take place before full amounts are paid? On the other hand, the seller sounds like there might be something to hide if the deal must be concluded in the winter regardless of sea trial. What's your hurry? Why can't you just wait until spring to make an offer?
It seems like the seller wants the deal to be concluded now, not in the spring. Your low offer is good for now, maybe not in the spring. Like the seller in this case, I would probably figure that an escrow arrangement would only lead to more negotiation in the spring. He is already giving up 25% off his asking price, but he may be willing to do that only if the entire transaction is concluded now, not in the spring. It sounds like you want the 25% off for entering into a transaction now, but you also want the escrow amount held back until the spring when you can do a sea trial and theoretically negotiate further off the price? What are you giving up for this concession by the seller? What if you tried offering a higher price under the condition that the sea trial take place before full amounts are paid? On the other hand, the seller sounds like there might be something to hide if the deal must be concluded in the winter regardless of sea trial. What's your hurry? Why can't you just wait until spring to make an offer?
Pete, who are you labeling Putz?
How do you do that without knowing both sides of a story? We only hear from the buyer. What is leading you to condemn a broker? Brian already said that "No Way" sounded more like "Great, I'll bring a deposit over". What is that supposed to imply? Who is the poor communicator in this transaction? We can't have any way of knowing. Brian, I don't know how you could have any commitment to either the seller or the surveyor before you put your deposit in place. I assume that you must have called the surveyor to tell him the deal is on so please proceed. If you didn't, I don't see how you would be on the hook for that either. If you haven't placed a deposit, and a sea trial is a must for you, then continue to hold your deposit until the details are worked out. I am simply saying that you also have to listen to the resistance that the seller has to the full extent of your offer. He may have a valid point of view, too.
How do you do that without knowing both sides of a story? We only hear from the buyer. What is leading you to condemn a broker? Brian already said that "No Way" sounded more like "Great, I'll bring a deposit over". What is that supposed to imply? Who is the poor communicator in this transaction? We can't have any way of knowing. Brian, I don't know how you could have any commitment to either the seller or the surveyor before you put your deposit in place. I assume that you must have called the surveyor to tell him the deal is on so please proceed. If you didn't, I don't see how you would be on the hook for that either. If you haven't placed a deposit, and a sea trial is a must for you, then continue to hold your deposit until the details are worked out. I am simply saying that you also have to listen to the resistance that the seller has to the full extent of your offer. He may have a valid point of view, too.
So...
you offered 25% lower than asking and he countered $100 below your offer? Did I read that right? And no escrow/sea trail to boot. No way! I don't like that the broker contacted the surveyor to do the work without your say so and without you being there. That is not right. Nor do I like the fact that they are trying to sell the boat "as-is". I agree with others here, walk away. There are many sailboats better than this one. Find one that does not need as much maintenance. You want to read a horror story, contact Seadance and ask her about the Irwin they purchased. Good luck!
you offered 25% lower than asking and he countered $100 below your offer? Did I read that right? And no escrow/sea trail to boot. No way! I don't like that the broker contacted the surveyor to do the work without your say so and without you being there. That is not right. Nor do I like the fact that they are trying to sell the boat "as-is". I agree with others here, walk away. There are many sailboats better than this one. Find one that does not need as much maintenance. You want to read a horror story, contact Seadance and ask her about the Irwin they purchased. Good luck!
never never never...
...use a broker's surveyor. If the dude isn't working for you, the dude isn't working for you. I agree that this is a deal you should walk away from. And probably a broker you should walk away from as well.
...use a broker's surveyor. If the dude isn't working for you, the dude isn't working for you. I agree that this is a deal you should walk away from. And probably a broker you should walk away from as well.
Too weird...
for me. Doesn't add up. Sounds like the broker wants his commission and is in bed with the seller. You were left out. You should have been present for the survey. No way should you purchase a boat without a sea trial or escrow. Walk away... let the broker pay for the survey that he ordered. You might want to find a new surveyor too... it doesn't appear he is looking out for your interest. (Surveyor knows better than that) Find a new Broker too. Good luck, Rich
for me. Doesn't add up. Sounds like the broker wants his commission and is in bed with the seller. You were left out. You should have been present for the survey. No way should you purchase a boat without a sea trial or escrow. Walk away... let the broker pay for the survey that he ordered. You might want to find a new surveyor too... it doesn't appear he is looking out for your interest. (Surveyor knows better than that) Find a new Broker too. Good luck, Rich
SCOTT ,The broker is a PUTZ !!
Scott, I thought it was clear that I thought the broker was a "PUTZ". I think he overstepped his authority when he told the surveyor to go ahead and do a survey WITHOUT a signed agreed price contract, simple job to fax a contract back and forth for a signature and they are now considered legally binding via fax. Was the brokers fax machine broken ??? could he not have waited until Brian signed the counter offer?? Now you bring up the question of the deposit ??? A little late don't you think ? The deposit should have been in place with the initial offer was made NOT after. Again a broker issue. Why did the broker tell the surveyor to go ahead with out a deposit ?? Deposits goes to binding the contract as well as showing good faith on the buyers part. If the deal is not made a deposit check gets returned or ripped up no big deal. Did you purchase a home without a deposit accompanying the offer???? or you boat for that matter ? Reread the original post and response where Brian was asking advise on how this worked not if it worked. The broker was against(or at least resisted) the escrow and sea trial idea as I recall. They sell boats all the time with escrows and pending sea trial due to weather. Any broker who can't put that deal together because of this is a "PUTZ" in my opinion. As far as what Brian said or did not say and what was perceived by the broker and who miss communicated that is really not an issue because with out a agreed SIGNED sales contract it all means NOTHING. What a salesperson (aka broker never lied?? or just so I don't offend anyone miss communicated?? )Based on Brian's original post I did not have any reason to question he said "NO WAY". Brian started out saying he wanted a survey and sea trial, very clearly stated. Scott let me suggest you reread Brian's post today where he said the broker called the surveyor(according to the e mail Brian received) and told him to proceed NOT Brian ! ! So why would you ASSUME Brian called the surveyor telling him to proceed ??? Especially when the counter offer stated no escrow and sea trial, Brian's original post talked about a sea trial, at no time did Brian say he would forgo a sea trial. So unless you want to believe the surveyor was mislead by Brian or is cahoots with the broker against Brian to get his money ....again a broker issue. Bottom line here is this sale sounds like it is falling apart, rightfully so and the BROKER is to BLAME and in my opinion the broker is a "PUTZ".
Scott, I thought it was clear that I thought the broker was a "PUTZ". I think he overstepped his authority when he told the surveyor to go ahead and do a survey WITHOUT a signed agreed price contract, simple job to fax a contract back and forth for a signature and they are now considered legally binding via fax. Was the brokers fax machine broken ??? could he not have waited until Brian signed the counter offer?? Now you bring up the question of the deposit ??? A little late don't you think ? The deposit should have been in place with the initial offer was made NOT after. Again a broker issue. Why did the broker tell the surveyor to go ahead with out a deposit ?? Deposits goes to binding the contract as well as showing good faith on the buyers part. If the deal is not made a deposit check gets returned or ripped up no big deal. Did you purchase a home without a deposit accompanying the offer???? or you boat for that matter ? Reread the original post and response where Brian was asking advise on how this worked not if it worked. The broker was against(or at least resisted) the escrow and sea trial idea as I recall. They sell boats all the time with escrows and pending sea trial due to weather. Any broker who can't put that deal together because of this is a "PUTZ" in my opinion. As far as what Brian said or did not say and what was perceived by the broker and who miss communicated that is really not an issue because with out a agreed SIGNED sales contract it all means NOTHING. What a salesperson (aka broker never lied?? or just so I don't offend anyone miss communicated?? )Based on Brian's original post I did not have any reason to question he said "NO WAY". Brian started out saying he wanted a survey and sea trial, very clearly stated. Scott let me suggest you reread Brian's post today where he said the broker called the surveyor(according to the e mail Brian received) and told him to proceed NOT Brian ! ! So why would you ASSUME Brian called the surveyor telling him to proceed ??? Especially when the counter offer stated no escrow and sea trial, Brian's original post talked about a sea trial, at no time did Brian say he would forgo a sea trial. So unless you want to believe the surveyor was mislead by Brian or is cahoots with the broker against Brian to get his money ....again a broker issue. Bottom line here is this sale sounds like it is falling apart, rightfully so and the BROKER is to BLAME and in my opinion the broker is a "PUTZ".
Whoa, guys. Clarification.
I've got to proof read my posts. I meant to say I was thinking "no way" but I did say yes to the deal over the phone. The broker's not at fault there. For not having a signed offer and giving my surveyor the go ahead, yeah. As for the survey I had asked the surveyor if he could squeeze me in during a good weather window. And he did. Granted maybe he should have talked to me first but I am paying the surveyor as I believe he acted in good faith. I'm walking on this deal,though. Brian
I've got to proof read my posts. I meant to say I was thinking "no way" but I did say yes to the deal over the phone. The broker's not at fault there. For not having a signed offer and giving my surveyor the go ahead, yeah. As for the survey I had asked the surveyor if he could squeeze me in during a good weather window. And he did. Granted maybe he should have talked to me first but I am paying the surveyor as I believe he acted in good faith. I'm walking on this deal,though. Brian
Response to Tim R
Tim R. Looking for my first sailboat. 24 to 26 feet. Sail Lake Ontario. Fin keel. I like the look of the Mirages and C&C's. Prefer to stay with an outboard. Priced less than 15k. Took a sailing course on a Shark 24. Brian
Tim R. Looking for my first sailboat. 24 to 26 feet. Sail Lake Ontario. Fin keel. I like the look of the Mirages and C&C's. Prefer to stay with an outboard. Priced less than 15k. Took a sailing course on a Shark 24. Brian
There you go, Pete ...
maybe you want to do the re-reading.
Brian, I'm sure there was good faith on all sides and it sounds like the surveyor revealed enough faults to make you leery of the deal no matter when the transaction is concluded. You are surely making the right decision because I would bet that good deals will be available in the spring when you can do a sea trial on a prospective purchase. I am merely pointing out what may be the sellers perspective. On the one hand, the seller may have something to hide and is purposely trying to make a deal in the winter before a sea trial can be conducted. On the other hand, the seller may be trying to make a fair transaction but an escrow arrangement pending sea trial is unacceptable because he is desperate for the money and can't (or won't) wait that long. You can't know for sure which case it is, so you are better off playing it safe. If neither is the case, then an escrow arrangment may be perfectly suitable for both parties. If I was a seller in that case, I would not be so anxious to enter into an agreement with anybody who presents a low-ball offer simply because the deal won't be concluded until spring anyway so why not hold out for a higher price at least that long.
maybe you want to do the re-reading.
Brian, I'm sure there was good faith on all sides and it sounds like the surveyor revealed enough faults to make you leery of the deal no matter when the transaction is concluded. You are surely making the right decision because I would bet that good deals will be available in the spring when you can do a sea trial on a prospective purchase. I am merely pointing out what may be the sellers perspective. On the one hand, the seller may have something to hide and is purposely trying to make a deal in the winter before a sea trial can be conducted. On the other hand, the seller may be trying to make a fair transaction but an escrow arrangement pending sea trial is unacceptable because he is desperate for the money and can't (or won't) wait that long. You can't know for sure which case it is, so you are better off playing it safe. If neither is the case, then an escrow arrangment may be perfectly suitable for both parties. If I was a seller in that case, I would not be so anxious to enter into an agreement with anybody who presents a low-ball offer simply because the deal won't be concluded until spring anyway so why not hold out for a higher price at least that long. SCOTT
Scott, Not sure of what your point here is ! *butt The broker blew this deal no two ways about it and even after rereading I still stand by my saying the broker is a "PUTZ" He overstepped his authority. You can defend him all you want and give us the other side of the seller point of view but why was it so hard for the broker to explain this to Brian giving him all the info. This still does not give the broker authorization to tell the surveyor a deal is in place and do a survey. The boat is still not sold and still may not be sold until spring or when ever! ! (no guarantee it will sell ever if the survey was that poor) So the broker blew this deal all the way around NO SALE ! ! Now the sellers deal fell thru and perspective buyer has walked,feeling "left out" and has spent several hundred dollars(minimum). Way to make a deal Mr. Boat Broker ! Can't help but wonder if Brian will work with this broker again ??? How about it Brian will you ?? Scott not real sure where you are coming from here any way. Why did it upset you I called the broker a "PUTZ" ? Are you truly a do good-er just trying to get out the other side of the story OR (and I suspect) a boat broker ???? I reread all you post on this topic and clearly you are in the minority on this issue. Trying to justify a good deal because it is winter that is a boat broker talking ! ! ! If I offended you by calling one of your brethren a "PUTZ" so be it. I still stand by it !! All done with this now,got to get ready for Superbowl !
Scott, Not sure of what your point here is ! *butt The broker blew this deal no two ways about it and even after rereading I still stand by my saying the broker is a "PUTZ" He overstepped his authority. You can defend him all you want and give us the other side of the seller point of view but why was it so hard for the broker to explain this to Brian giving him all the info. This still does not give the broker authorization to tell the surveyor a deal is in place and do a survey. The boat is still not sold and still may not be sold until spring or when ever! ! (no guarantee it will sell ever if the survey was that poor) So the broker blew this deal all the way around NO SALE ! ! Now the sellers deal fell thru and perspective buyer has walked,feeling "left out" and has spent several hundred dollars(minimum). Way to make a deal Mr. Boat Broker ! Can't help but wonder if Brian will work with this broker again ??? How about it Brian will you ?? Scott not real sure where you are coming from here any way. Why did it upset you I called the broker a "PUTZ" ? Are you truly a do good-er just trying to get out the other side of the story OR (and I suspect) a boat broker ???? I reread all you post on this topic and clearly you are in the minority on this issue. Trying to justify a good deal because it is winter that is a boat broker talking ! ! ! If I offended you by calling one of your brethren a "PUTZ" so be it. I still stand by it !! All done with this now,got to get ready for Superbowl !
Pete, you nailed it ...
I AM a boat broker! And being open-minded to various perspectives DOES put me in the minority! How'd you get so smart? If you are smart, your money is on the Giants today!
I AM a boat broker! And being open-minded to various perspectives DOES put me in the minority! How'd you get so smart? If you are smart, your money is on the Giants today!
Do you think maybe the broker knows more?
Maybe the broker is an Expert and not a Putz. He knows the boat is really only worth 75% of listing price but the seller (being emotionally attached to either the boat or his wallet) won't believe that the offer is reasonable. So to prove his point and close the deal (thereby making a well earned commission), he is having the survey done that will put both buyer and seller at ease with the transaction. Scott, you're a broker? Is my case plausible? Okay, so now post the link or pictures and the jury of your peers (sailboatowner.com) will decide!!! Go Giants!
Maybe the broker is an Expert and not a Putz. He knows the boat is really only worth 75% of listing price but the seller (being emotionally attached to either the boat or his wallet) won't believe that the offer is reasonable. So to prove his point and close the deal (thereby making a well earned commission), he is having the survey done that will put both buyer and seller at ease with the transaction. Scott, you're a broker? Is my case plausible? Okay, so now post the link or pictures and the jury of your peers (sailboatowner.com) will decide!!! Go Giants!
Walk away and tell your surveyor to collect
his fee from the broker who engaged him. The least he could have done was to confirm with you that the deal was on and ask if you wanted the survey now. Neither the broker nor your surveyor have behaved very proffesionaly, dump them both.
his fee from the broker who engaged him. The least he could have done was to confirm with you that the deal was on and ask if you wanted the survey now. Neither the broker nor your surveyor have behaved very proffesionaly, dump them both.
berthing
Higgs I'm looking at Jordan Harbour and Grimsby for a slip. Scott I've not ruled out any brand of boat. I'll look at anything in my price range. Preferably on Lake Ontario so I can sail to the new berth rather than truck it. Sailing from Kingston or Sackets Harbor would be a good maiden voyage for it. But somewhere between Pickering and Olcott might be better.
Higgs I'm looking at Jordan Harbour and Grimsby for a slip. Scott I've not ruled out any brand of boat. I'll look at anything in my price range. Preferably on Lake Ontario so I can sail to the new berth rather than truck it. Sailing from Kingston or Sackets Harbor would be a good maiden voyage for it. But somewhere between Pickering and Olcott might be better.
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