I bought a 25 power sailer 1984 lancer in Jan of 2008, it comes with a 1986 50 HP Johnson outboard engine. in the dead of the winter I tryied to start the engine, it ran for a minute or two and then it died. I couldn't keep it going for long. being new to sailing I can not makeup my mind if I should buy a new 5 - 9.9 HP engine or repair the old 1986 50 HP Johnson ?
buy or repair the outboard engine
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Hi Shin
If it is any consolation to you, I am having my 1995 Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke repaired right now. I told the mechanic that I don't want to pay more than 50% of the cost to replace the motor. Well, he is at the 50% mark right now. My bad. Should have said 30%.
Anyway, I don't think you need 50hp. The cost of an older, yet new, 2005 was reasonable for me. I should probably have done that, but what to do with my old one. Could have used it as a template for learning how to fix motors then given it to a HS shop class for learning small engine repairs. Tough decision for you. But I'd say let the '86 have its rest and get an earlier 2000~2003 replacement if you can. Give the old engine to your local HS. Good luck.
If it is any consolation to you, I am having my 1995 Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke repaired right now. I told the mechanic that I don't want to pay more than 50% of the cost to replace the motor. Well, he is at the 50% mark right now. My bad. Should have said 30%.
Anyway, I don't think you need 50hp. The cost of an older, yet new, 2005 was reasonable for me. I should probably have done that, but what to do with my old one. Could have used it as a template for learning how to fix motors then given it to a HS shop class for learning small engine repairs. Tough decision for you. But I'd say let the '86 have its rest and get an earlier 2000~2003 replacement if you can. Give the old engine to your local HS. Good luck.
Get the manual
Do yourself a favor. The first thing you should always do when you get any used outboard is to buy the manual. There are a number of reasons why an outboard will start, run and then quit that are inexpensive and take little experience to tackle. Certainly a 50hp is more complex than a 9.9hp. The basics include changing the spark plug(s), cleaning/replacing the fuel filter and cleaning or perhaps even rebuilding the carburator. An important things is to ensure that you are running the outboard in water or with water muffs on it so it doesn't over heat. Make sure it is pumping cooling water too or you could wipe out the water pump in just a few minutes (at least on a small outboard, I am less familiar with larger outboards). A good used longshaft 9.9 will run you about $600-1200. A good new one about $3000 including controls. Also, I once had a snowmobile that wouldn't run worth a damn in winter, but ran beautifully in the summer. That is a pretty bad trait for a snowmobile, but suggests that your outboard may run much better when it gets warmer I assume that once the motor has started you are turning off the choke? Failure to do so will definitely cause it to shut down after a couple of minutes. Forgive me if I go over the basics. I don't know your experience at this point. Bob
Do yourself a favor. The first thing you should always do when you get any used outboard is to buy the manual. There are a number of reasons why an outboard will start, run and then quit that are inexpensive and take little experience to tackle. Certainly a 50hp is more complex than a 9.9hp. The basics include changing the spark plug(s), cleaning/replacing the fuel filter and cleaning or perhaps even rebuilding the carburator. An important things is to ensure that you are running the outboard in water or with water muffs on it so it doesn't over heat. Make sure it is pumping cooling water too or you could wipe out the water pump in just a few minutes (at least on a small outboard, I am less familiar with larger outboards). A good used longshaft 9.9 will run you about $600-1200. A good new one about $3000 including controls. Also, I once had a snowmobile that wouldn't run worth a damn in winter, but ran beautifully in the summer. That is a pretty bad trait for a snowmobile, but suggests that your outboard may run much better when it gets warmer
I assume that once the motor has started you are turning off the choke? Failure to do so will definitely cause it to shut down after a couple of minutes. Forgive me if I go over the basics. I don't know your experience at this point. Bob
More from Bob
By the way, I have a regular Lancer 25. I have had a 9.9hp on it and now have an 8hp on it. I can mount up (i.e. lift the outboard over my head to place it on my adjustable mount with the boat on the hard on stands) the 8hp solo (~80lb), but the 9.9 was just heavy enough to be too much to do easily (~115lb...the Johnson/Evinrude was really a detuned 15hp and feels like one). Four strokes are even heavier than two strokes. You can get an 8 with all the features of the 9.9 and it will probably move you around okay at about 5 knots. I doubt that 5hp will work well on the L25 power sailor. Think about whether you really need the 50hp for anything. If you really want to plane her out and do 15mph to get somewhere, for example if its a long run to open water where you can sail, stay with it. If you can't think of a reason why you would want to do so you could certainly sell the 50hp for the price of a good used 8 or 9.9 hp. More for you to think about. Bob
By the way, I have a regular Lancer 25. I have had a 9.9hp on it and now have an 8hp on it. I can mount up (i.e. lift the outboard over my head to place it on my adjustable mount with the boat on the hard on stands) the 8hp solo (~80lb), but the 9.9 was just heavy enough to be too much to do easily (~115lb...the Johnson/Evinrude was really a detuned 15hp and feels like one). Four strokes are even heavier than two strokes. You can get an 8 with all the features of the 9.9 and it will probably move you around okay at about 5 knots. I doubt that 5hp will work well on the L25 power sailor. Think about whether you really need the 50hp for anything. If you really want to plane her out and do 15mph to get somewhere, for example if its a long run to open water where you can sail, stay with it. If you can't think of a reason why you would want to do so you could certainly sell the 50hp for the price of a good used 8 or 9.9 hp. More for you to think about. Bob
Snowmobile in April ;-)
Bob and Brian Thank you so much for your replies. Your comment on snowmobile was hilarious, I could relate to that with my old Mazda B250 pickup truck air conditions which only worked in winter. I got the manual from the library but I have not got my courage up yet to take the motor out of the boat. Boat is in the water on a slip, and the engine as I stair at it, keep getting heavier and heavier mean while I am getting older and weaker. In may past life I used to be a mechanical engineer, which entitled me to take a part every mechanical device and not be able to put them back together again ;-(. Thus knowing my handicap I am trying to avoid penny wise and pound foolish. I think Brian had the right idea if the cost of repair is more than 30% of a new engine, I should just buy the new engine. My calculation goes as follow 1)Cost of new Engine for 9 ~ 15 HP ~$2200 “http://www.onlineoutboards.com/15hp_tohatsu_outboard_motor.html” by the way if you know a better web site pleas let me know. 2)30% $2200 = $660 Once I get my courage together to take the engine out of the boat. I should have a better understanding of my situation
Bob and Brian Thank you so much for your replies. Your comment on snowmobile was hilarious, I could relate to that with my old Mazda B250 pickup truck air conditions which only worked in winter. I got the manual from the library but I have not got my courage up yet to take the motor out of the boat. Boat is in the water on a slip, and the engine as I stair at it, keep getting heavier and heavier mean while I am getting older and weaker. In may past life I used to be a mechanical engineer, which entitled me to take a part every mechanical device and not be able to put them back together again ;-(. Thus knowing my handicap I am trying to avoid penny wise and pound foolish. I think Brian had the right idea if the cost of repair is more than 30% of a new engine, I should just buy the new engine. My calculation goes as follow 1)Cost of new Engine for 9 ~ 15 HP ~$2200 “http://www.onlineoutboards.com/15hp_tohatsu_outboard_motor.html” by the way if you know a better web site pleas let me know. 2)30% $2200 = $660 Once I get my courage together to take the engine out of the boat. I should have a better understanding of my situation
Shin...
30% may be too low. I think 50% is better. I just said 30% because of what I paid to have mine fixed. It was a major overhaul. But I got it back today and it fired right up. So it was money well spent. Might I recommend Craig's List. Are you familiar with it? I scour Craig's List everyday looking for deal on boating gear. I have seen a lot of outboards for sale on CG and they seemed to be reasonable. Good luck.
30% may be too low. I think 50% is better. I just said 30% because of what I paid to have mine fixed. It was a major overhaul. But I got it back today and it fired right up. So it was money well spent. Might I recommend Craig's List. Are you familiar with it? I scour Craig's List everyday looking for deal on boating gear. I have seen a lot of outboards for sale on CG and they seemed to be reasonable. Good luck.
more snowmobiling
Yeah that snowmobile was a hoot. 1978 Artic Cat Pantera 500CC. No reverse and it weighed a ton. The only time I ever took in on a trip was to the Connecticut Lakes, which is literally only miles from Canada in either NH or VT. My friend invited me to go ice fishing the week of Christmas. Like an idiot I had put water in my windshield washer reservoir and the damn thing froze it was so cold. The ride home was really dirty and I drove with a burger king cup between my legs that I would fill with windshield washer fluid from a handy bottle. Every few miles I'd roll down the window and throw some out. Don't even ask about the damned snowmobile. Dragged it all the way up there and it didn't even THINK about starting even though there were hundreds of miles of trails within reach. Even the fishing stunk. My friend ended up eating the smelts we brought as bait! We drove back to balmy MA and of course the darned thing fired right up. Back to the outboard. Think hard about how you plan to use the boat. If you can't imagine a scenario where you want to tow a skier and you value the ability to take the motor home in the winter and 8hp is a heck of a lot easier to wrangle. Like I said, even twenty pounds lighter makes a big difference physically. Also, from a sailing perspective, having all the weight in the back can be a negative and the engine is the furthest thing out there from a physics perspective (lever action). Your power sailor must be much broader in back than my L25. I know that it is pretty easy to clear my long shaft out board from the water by moving crew forward. I then figured out that with the shallow hull on the L25 it was likely that my cockpit drains were getting dangerously close to being under water with a full complement in the cockpit and a full water tank. I finally realized that by shifting stores forward I could maintain trim to keep my drains above water. The change to the 8hp from the 9.9 didn't hurt either. Novel concept...I had only read about ships restowing to maintain trim a thousand times in every H.Hornblower...Bolitho...O'Brian book I own. I guess it just took a while to sink in! Bob
Yeah that snowmobile was a hoot. 1978 Artic Cat Pantera 500CC. No reverse and it weighed a ton. The only time I ever took in on a trip was to the Connecticut Lakes, which is literally only miles from Canada in either NH or VT. My friend invited me to go ice fishing the week of Christmas. Like an idiot I had put water in my windshield washer reservoir and the damn thing froze it was so cold. The ride home was really dirty and I drove with a burger king cup between my legs that I would fill with windshield washer fluid from a handy bottle. Every few miles I'd roll down the window and throw some out. Don't even ask about the damned snowmobile. Dragged it all the way up there and it didn't even THINK about starting even though there were hundreds of miles of trails within reach. Even the fishing stunk. My friend ended up eating the smelts we brought as bait! We drove back to balmy MA and of course the darned thing fired right up. Back to the outboard. Think hard about how you plan to use the boat. If you can't imagine a scenario where you want to tow a skier and you value the ability to take the motor home in the winter and 8hp is a heck of a lot easier to wrangle. Like I said, even twenty pounds lighter makes a big difference physically. Also, from a sailing perspective, having all the weight in the back can be a negative and the engine is the furthest thing out there from a physics perspective (lever action). Your power sailor must be much broader in back than my L25. I know that it is pretty easy to clear my long shaft out board from the water by moving crew forward. I then figured out that with the shallow hull on the L25 it was likely that my cockpit drains were getting dangerously close to being under water with a full complement in the cockpit and a full water tank. I finally realized that by shifting stores forward I could maintain trim to keep my drains above water. The change to the 8hp from the 9.9 didn't hurt either. Novel concept...I had only read about ships restowing to maintain trim a thousand times in every H.Hornblower...Bolitho...O'Brian book I own. I guess it just took a while to sink in! Bob
troubleshooting
I am sure you have thought of this, but since you have gotten it started you obviously have spark, so fuel is the next most likely culprit. If you rebuild the carb, be careful, I once crushed a needle trying to put it back in. Scratch one carb. Had to buy a used one online. My first experience with my boat was the need to motor it from Boston's inner harbor to Winthrop. The lower shrouds were MIA when I bought the boat and I didn't want to chance sailing on just the uppers. Therefore I fired up the outboard, which I had worked on, but somehow avoided water pump replacement (it seemed to be indicating pretty well at the time). I swear, literally a minute after my Wife and I left the dock the stream of water indicating that the pump was pumping cooling the engine dropped to a trickle turning the hour long trip into a white knuckler. My Wife was less than thrilled that I bought a sailboat. Setting her adrift in Boston Harbor wasn't going to make a popular guy. Fortunately we completed the trip. Moral of the story? When in doubt rebuild the water pump...when not in doubt...rebuild it anyway and carry a spare just in case. Bob
I am sure you have thought of this, but since you have gotten it started you obviously have spark, so fuel is the next most likely culprit. If you rebuild the carb, be careful, I once crushed a needle trying to put it back in. Scratch one carb. Had to buy a used one online. My first experience with my boat was the need to motor it from Boston's inner harbor to Winthrop. The lower shrouds were MIA when I bought the boat and I didn't want to chance sailing on just the uppers. Therefore I fired up the outboard, which I had worked on, but somehow avoided water pump replacement (it seemed to be indicating pretty well at the time). I swear, literally a minute after my Wife and I left the dock the stream of water indicating that the pump was pumping cooling the engine dropped to a trickle turning the hour long trip into a white knuckler. My Wife was less than thrilled that I bought a sailboat. Setting her adrift in Boston Harbor wasn't going to make a popular guy. Fortunately we completed the trip. Moral of the story? When in doubt rebuild the water pump...when not in doubt...rebuild it anyway and carry a spare just in case. Bob
Seems the obvious has been ignored.
Engine starts, runs a couple of minutes and dies? First culprit is fuel, or lack of. Seems silly but the first thing to try is the fuel tank vent screw. Has to be open to allow air to displace the used fuel. Next to check would be the fuel pump's output. Fill the carb with fuel. Pull the fuel hose from the carb. Aim the hose into a container. I like an empty Coke bottle. Run the engine. If fuel doesn't run out of the hose you've found your problem.
Engine starts, runs a couple of minutes and dies? First culprit is fuel, or lack of. Seems silly but the first thing to try is the fuel tank vent screw. Has to be open to allow air to displace the used fuel. Next to check would be the fuel pump's output. Fill the carb with fuel. Pull the fuel hose from the carb. Aim the hose into a container. I like an empty Coke bottle. Run the engine. If fuel doesn't run out of the hose you've found your problem.
Sorry for the delay, and thank you all for your replies
My humble apologizes for getting back to this fairly late. with the little time I get between the Job, house and kid some times I am pondering "What the hack I was thinking of buying a very used sail boat" I finally decided to listen to the word of reason and buy a 8 HP Yamaha motor. Taking the 50 HP off of the boat was a half day job not to mention the weight of this thing, I am guessing it is around 250 lb. Replacing it with the 8 hp was the best thing I could of done. It is funny to look at the boat now it look like couple inches out of the water now. the 8 HP moves the boat in and out out, and I am happy with it. If I come around a newer 50 HP I probably will buy it. Thank you so much from all of you for your help and sugestions. Best regards Afshin
My humble apologizes for getting back to this fairly late. with the little time I get between the Job, house and kid some times I am pondering "What the hack I was thinking of buying a very used sail boat" I finally decided to listen to the word of reason and buy a 8 HP Yamaha motor. Taking the 50 HP off of the boat was a half day job not to mention the weight of this thing, I am guessing it is around 250 lb. Replacing it with the 8 hp was the best thing I could of done. It is funny to look at the boat now it look like couple inches out of the water now. the 8 HP moves the boat in and out out, and I am happy with it. If I come around a newer 50 HP I probably will buy it. Thank you so much from all of you for your help and sugestions. Best regards Afshin
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