All four used..I go to the Seattle boat show and I appreciate my 37 yr old boat all the more....
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Buy New or Used Boat?
- Thread starter Warren Milberg
- Start date
There is no reason to buy a new boat. There are too many used ones out there. Many of them barely used.
I think buying new has the advantage of professional installation on major features such as electronics, auto pilots, sails, spinnaker rigging....etc. allowing you to include it in the financing.
However, looking for a used boat that already has features you need for cruising.. such as tenders, solar, ground tackle... and so on.. and has been well documented maintenance.. will save you a ton of money... especially if you're upsizing substantially.
I do not subscribe to the theory that a new boat will have less problems....
However, looking for a used boat that already has features you need for cruising.. such as tenders, solar, ground tackle... and so on.. and has been well documented maintenance.. will save you a ton of money... especially if you're upsizing substantially.
I do not subscribe to the theory that a new boat will have less problems....
Two used and two sort of new.
First was an S2 6.7 Grand Slam that was the factory / dealer demo. It was a few months old.
Second was an O'Day 28 that was 12 years old.
Third was a Catalina 34 that was 5 years old and we owned it 17 years.
Fourth was a Hunter 38. Another dealer demo. Was 2008 model that we bought in 2009.
I've found dealer demos to be a great way to get a new boat at a very respectable price. Usually tricked up with more options and discountd some because of demo use.
Decision was based on what we could afford at the time and the condition of the boat. The new (I consider the demo boats to be new) came with warranties so issues were addressed. But because they were demos the dealer had already taken care of many things that could be considered part of the debugging process that is innate in something as complex as a boat and all its systems.
The new boats had the advantage of all the newest systems and instruments. This was particularly important to us with the Hunter. We are in our 60s now and wanted a boat that would allow us to sail well into our elderly years should we choose to do so and God willing health allows. So that meant easily handled sails, some comfort systems like air conditioning / heat, refrigeration systems, etc. That led us towards new and fortunately the demo route helped with the financial side.
That said I'd never be afraid to buy a good well cared for used boat either. You just have to know going in that with used some upgrade expenses are to be expected.
First was an S2 6.7 Grand Slam that was the factory / dealer demo. It was a few months old.
Second was an O'Day 28 that was 12 years old.
Third was a Catalina 34 that was 5 years old and we owned it 17 years.
Fourth was a Hunter 38. Another dealer demo. Was 2008 model that we bought in 2009.
I've found dealer demos to be a great way to get a new boat at a very respectable price. Usually tricked up with more options and discountd some because of demo use.
Decision was based on what we could afford at the time and the condition of the boat. The new (I consider the demo boats to be new) came with warranties so issues were addressed. But because they were demos the dealer had already taken care of many things that could be considered part of the debugging process that is innate in something as complex as a boat and all its systems.
The new boats had the advantage of all the newest systems and instruments. This was particularly important to us with the Hunter. We are in our 60s now and wanted a boat that would allow us to sail well into our elderly years should we choose to do so and God willing health allows. So that meant easily handled sails, some comfort systems like air conditioning / heat, refrigeration systems, etc. That led us towards new and fortunately the demo route helped with the financial side.
That said I'd never be afraid to buy a good well cared for used boat either. You just have to know going in that with used some upgrade expenses are to be expected.
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I bought new. I actually ordered my Beneteau Oceanis 37 to my specs. I also set aside monies for outfitting her just the way I wanted her to be. The reason being I'm 71 and don't have time to farting with old boats. I also see on the dock around me and watch owners spending all they're free time working on and cursing at the their boats. I figured I had at least 5 good years before the heavy maintenance sets in where I can be sailing and enjoying my days.
Spending 4+ days in a severe storm recently just reinforced my decision. New boats at least my Beneteau are well designed and though today's woodwork may fall short of solid teak etc of yesterday's the new materials and design make up the difference.
My Beneteau is all mine and not a thrown together Mish mosh of old and new. Also once old always old. Sail'n Somewhere is an extension of me.
Spending 4+ days in a severe storm recently just reinforced my decision. New boats at least my Beneteau are well designed and though today's woodwork may fall short of solid teak etc of yesterday's the new materials and design make up the difference.
My Beneteau is all mine and not a thrown together Mish mosh of old and new. Also once old always old. Sail'n Somewhere is an extension of me.
So I just skimmed the first post of each problem/fix related thread in Ask All Sailors from October to December 2016. Of them, there were 16 threads where the problem was inherited from a previous owner, 42 where the problem developed over time or it was unclear, and exactly zero where the problem was with a new boat. Now I'm not saying new boats don't have problems, or that there aren't reasons to buy used (cost and design bring two very compelling reasons), but I just don't see how the cost or time to deal with issues on a new boat could even compare to used.
Oh, and in my skimming, I was reminded of the great quote - "The boat is 30 years old. What is original is breaking and what is not, has been mangled by PO's".
Oh, and in my skimming, I was reminded of the great quote - "The boat is 30 years old. What is original is breaking and what is not, has been mangled by PO's".
This is just a generalized statement, but as a non-practicing attorney, I have to say that the new boat warranties I've read are not worth the paper they are written on. I've had some friends with serious warranty issues that aren't given support by the manufacturer. It's not as simple as a 'bumper to bumper' car warranty. The quality of most of the sailboat brands is deteriorating substantially merely to meet a price point in the market. It seems to me that a well maintained used boat that has been given a clean bill of health by a respected surveyor is a better way to go. Some of the money you save can be used to do custom upgrades that suit your own needs.
Quadrilles reply on very recent, but used boats seems like a great (best) solution. I was given advice very early on, that a used boat will have all of the systems installed not found with new typically.
For newer used boats, those systems don't need to be upgraded. Why selling? Likely the dream surpassed reality and time to check out.
For older used boats, most have already commented on the refit, re-bedding, and maintenance.
Unfortunately, I am still in the budget camp, but at least own her free and clear. And learn more skills as I upgrade and repair.
For newer used boats, those systems don't need to be upgraded. Why selling? Likely the dream surpassed reality and time to check out.
For older used boats, most have already commented on the refit, re-bedding, and maintenance.
Unfortunately, I am still in the budget camp, but at least own her free and clear. And learn more skills as I upgrade and repair.
I've done both and would never, ever buy new again. Warranty issues, companies that don't stand behind the product etc. Our manufacturer refused to pay for agreed warranty work they had said they would pay for etc. etc. etc...
The resale hit can also be murderous to your wallet unless you plan to keep it but still it is a quickly depreciating asset when you buy new. Much less depreciation on used boats.. That said I timed the market well and lost less than 10K (excluding any upgrades) because we listed it a year after purchase and did so right after the manufacturer took a HUGE price increase.
Second guy that looked at it (an experienced buyer) snapped it up in seconds for asking price.. First guy that made me an offer (an inexperienced buyer) proceeded to fly all over the US, wasting $$$, looking at less equipped, crap condition sister-ships only to come back offering me full price. Sorry dude she's gone.....
I will repeat my tips for boat buying once again:
Buy the absolute best condition boat you can find.
I call these the "2-percenters" as it the top 2% of condition. A "2-percenter" still has to compete with its sister-ships and while it can be the "top priced" boat it can't be outrageously top-priced. When you add up all the things the previous owner has done to make and keep it a 2%er YOU WIN...
Here's a prime example;
About 12 years ago a neighbor enlisted my advice when looking at two Catalina 30's. One was in top notch condition, a genuine pristine boat needing nothing but your own fresh linens. The other boat needed nearly everything and was very poorly maintained and cared for but less $$$$$. My neighbor got hung up on the $$$$ aspect and not in the REALITY aspect despite hours of discussions with me pleading to him NOT to buy that boat..
He fit the true definition of a naive or inexperienced buyer, he knows that now..... .Some things you simply can not teach and the naive or inexperienced buyer does not yet have the knowledge to know how to listen to sage advice..
Both boats were the same year, same model and only 8k apart in asking price with the most expensive, at that time, being about 32k asking (not selling). Fast forward three years....
A gear box (on old engine)
A re-power (this after spending 2K to repair the gear on the old engine)
New standing rigging (insurance demanded)
New Furler (furler failed first weekend out)
New running rigging (completely rotted)
New canvas (was well beyond salvageable)
New sails (old sails were worse than done)
Numerous deck core repairs (about 7.5K all insurance required)
Wiring upgrades
Batteries
Interior cushions (saturated and foam infiltrated by black mold due to deck leaks)
Wet bulkhead repair
Chainplate replaced (due to wet bulkheads)
Mast Step Repaired
Keel reset & stub repaired
Bottom job
etc. etc. etc.
By the time the boat was "close to" as good as the one for 32k, which he could have purchased for 29k, he was sooo upside down it was not even laughable.. For the "junker" he paid 24k which was only approx a 5k up front difference. Three years later he had over 60k, 35k in "fixing" into a 24k purchase price Catalina 30.
Sadly the boat was still worth 28-29k just what the one he didn't buy could have been purchased for.... For 5k more the other boat was already there.
This little escapade in penny pinching the initial purchase price cost him, at a bare minimum, $25,000.00 more........
Moral of the story, don't be penny wise pound foolish.... A little more up front, on a pristine example of the boat you want, often goes a LOOOOOOONG way and in almost every single case will cost less over the long haul...
I also work on two Sabre 34 MK I's one owned by a very experienced buyer who bought the most pristine one avaible, and the other owned by a less experienced buyer who bought the "project boat". The pristine model was 6.5K more, and even has Espar heat. I have done about 1.2K in work to that boat, all unnecessary nice to have "upgrades", and nearly 13.5K in absolutely necessary, barely keep it running, fixes to the fixer upper. By my estimation she is still about 25k away from even getting close to the level of the other one.......
Be the experienced buyer..
P.S. 2%er's do not last on the market so do not hem and haw over one or it will get snapped up from under your feet. Whip out the checkbook and write the deposit on the spot when or if you find one...
The resale hit can also be murderous to your wallet unless you plan to keep it but still it is a quickly depreciating asset when you buy new. Much less depreciation on used boats.. That said I timed the market well and lost less than 10K (excluding any upgrades) because we listed it a year after purchase and did so right after the manufacturer took a HUGE price increase.
Second guy that looked at it (an experienced buyer) snapped it up in seconds for asking price.. First guy that made me an offer (an inexperienced buyer) proceeded to fly all over the US, wasting $$$, looking at less equipped, crap condition sister-ships only to come back offering me full price. Sorry dude she's gone.....
I will repeat my tips for boat buying once again:
Buy the absolute best condition boat you can find.
I call these the "2-percenters" as it the top 2% of condition. A "2-percenter" still has to compete with its sister-ships and while it can be the "top priced" boat it can't be outrageously top-priced. When you add up all the things the previous owner has done to make and keep it a 2%er YOU WIN...
Here's a prime example;
About 12 years ago a neighbor enlisted my advice when looking at two Catalina 30's. One was in top notch condition, a genuine pristine boat needing nothing but your own fresh linens. The other boat needed nearly everything and was very poorly maintained and cared for but less $$$$$. My neighbor got hung up on the $$$$ aspect and not in the REALITY aspect despite hours of discussions with me pleading to him NOT to buy that boat..
He fit the true definition of a naive or inexperienced buyer, he knows that now..... .Some things you simply can not teach and the naive or inexperienced buyer does not yet have the knowledge to know how to listen to sage advice..
Both boats were the same year, same model and only 8k apart in asking price with the most expensive, at that time, being about 32k asking (not selling). Fast forward three years....
A gear box (on old engine)
A re-power (this after spending 2K to repair the gear on the old engine)
New standing rigging (insurance demanded)
New Furler (furler failed first weekend out)
New running rigging (completely rotted)
New canvas (was well beyond salvageable)
New sails (old sails were worse than done)
Numerous deck core repairs (about 7.5K all insurance required)
Wiring upgrades
Batteries
Interior cushions (saturated and foam infiltrated by black mold due to deck leaks)
Wet bulkhead repair
Chainplate replaced (due to wet bulkheads)
Mast Step Repaired
Keel reset & stub repaired
Bottom job
etc. etc. etc.
By the time the boat was "close to" as good as the one for 32k, which he could have purchased for 29k, he was sooo upside down it was not even laughable.. For the "junker" he paid 24k which was only approx a 5k up front difference. Three years later he had over 60k, 35k in "fixing" into a 24k purchase price Catalina 30.
Sadly the boat was still worth 28-29k just what the one he didn't buy could have been purchased for.... For 5k more the other boat was already there.
This little escapade in penny pinching the initial purchase price cost him, at a bare minimum, $25,000.00 more........
Moral of the story, don't be penny wise pound foolish.... A little more up front, on a pristine example of the boat you want, often goes a LOOOOOOONG way and in almost every single case will cost less over the long haul...
I also work on two Sabre 34 MK I's one owned by a very experienced buyer who bought the most pristine one avaible, and the other owned by a less experienced buyer who bought the "project boat". The pristine model was 6.5K more, and even has Espar heat. I have done about 1.2K in work to that boat, all unnecessary nice to have "upgrades", and nearly 13.5K in absolutely necessary, barely keep it running, fixes to the fixer upper. By my estimation she is still about 25k away from even getting close to the level of the other one.......
Be the experienced buyer..
P.S. 2%er's do not last on the market so do not hem and haw over one or it will get snapped up from under your feet. Whip out the checkbook and write the deposit on the spot when or if you find one...
I bought new two years ago and only small issues like loose hinges, bent shackle pin, or busted igniter on stove. Factory was great and the dealer reimbursed me each time just by sending pictures of broken part and a receipt for the replacement. Even got reimbursed for broken winch handle. I will say I've spent a small fortune on upgrading the sails though.
New is nice. It's nice to lay down in perfectly clean berths or to sit on a spotless turlette.
New is nice. It's nice to lay down in perfectly clean berths or to sit on a spotless turlette.
Only purchased used, mostly because I like working on boats and I am usually short of funds. However, I do not like the new designs either. Do others like the straight drop to the waterline at the bow? Do others like the perfectly square stern? I understand about waterline length and a nice large rear stateroom but these boats appear ugly to me. Something a child might draw and without grace. How about predicting the reliability of these new below the rail windows?
By "new" do you mean this type of "below the rail" port.?
Hard to define what you mean by "new"... I'd say they have a pretty good track record considering AVATRICE, pictured here, was built 1966 and is the foundation platform for a local sailing school, so she gets used a TON....
Is 51 years good enough....?
Exactly what I did, no hemming and hawing, looked at it, had the admiral look at it, wrote a down payment check contingent on a clean survey, surveyor came back and made the comment: "That's the cleanest boat I have looked at in a long time", upgraded Raymarine Chart Plotter with Lighthouse II Software, wind, depth, autopilot and knot meter all linked, bow thruster, panda 6.5K generator mounted in port side lazarette and only 750 hrs on a 54 HP well maintain and documented Yanmar.
We love the boat, and I am sure it will give us many years of service. The bartering I did was for the Asym complete with Selden top down furler with bowsprit, 9 ft dingy with 4 hp Yamaha, storm and anchor sail to be included in the deal, offered and accepted a 10% below asking, which was comparable to many other listings.
I have to agree with Roy. The new interiors look the inside of a 60s mobile home without the charm. A lot of plain flat bulkhead. I also prefer keel stepped masts and classic lines. Though I must admit that the current design fashion boasts nice wide cockpits.
At the end of the day, people buy the best boat they can afford that meets their needs.
And everyone has differnent notions of what 'afford' means and what their needs are.
I like @Pilgrimtex 's answer. I want to be him in 20 years.
And everyone has differnent notions of what 'afford' means and what their needs are.
I like @Pilgrimtex 's answer. I want to be him in 20 years.
The thing with new boats is having a dealer you can communicate with that will get answers from the factory expediently, especially if it is a foreign builder. Also, keep in mind that the only thing the builder actually makes is the hull, rudder, keel, and the interior carpentry which on most production boats, should be pretty unbreakable Everything else are sourced parts....i.e. Selden spars, Harken winches, Yanmar engines, etc. which the only real control the builder has over them is to make sure they sourced quality parts to begin with before you make your purchase.
Finding Mainesail's 2%'er is like trying to find a Unicorn.
Finding Mainesail's 2%'er is like trying to find a Unicorn.
Thank you Jackdaw for the compliment.
I sometimes joke about about myself as being a low budget Hemingway because of all my past adventures and experiences. Because of my disabilities I can't run with the bulls so I would have to shoot em. Lol.
Friends of ours sold a Bavaria they bought new and recently bought a larger used boat. They loved the Bavaria but wanted bigger and will soon be moving aboard. They also have a 3 year plan to prepare it for their retirement. This is the correct way to go about buying used. Plus I consider it a 2% boat.
I sometimes joke about about myself as being a low budget Hemingway because of all my past adventures and experiences. Because of my disabilities I can't run with the bulls so I would have to shoot em. Lol.
Friends of ours sold a Bavaria they bought new and recently bought a larger used boat. They loved the Bavaria but wanted bigger and will soon be moving aboard. They also have a 3 year plan to prepare it for their retirement. This is the correct way to go about buying used. Plus I consider it a 2% boat.
Riffing off of Maine Sail's insights: Don't be the guy who shows up at the boatyard with a budget and a boat in mind only to be convinced that your budget can get you a new and bigger boat. You should know what size boat, what brand and model, what market prices fit you boat budget. Do the math and homework up front or be prepared to regret what you get sold. Be the savvyist guy in the deal.