My wife and I have been going over this delemma for months, and we're not any closer to a resolution. I thought I'd throw this question to the crowd, and see what happens. Some background... We like to sail. We don't have a ton of time to work on boats, and live 1-1/2 hours from nearby marinas. We have chartered several times down in the BVI and LOVE IT. We like the idea of sailing in exotic places, and can afford to fly to them. I also like the thought of having my own sailboat on the Chesapeake Bay that I can just drive down to and sail anytime I want, but probably would not get to it more than two weekends a month, and probably a couple of sailing trips a year (1-2 weeks). Soooo our delimma is .... Should we buy a 40-44' sailboat through the Moorings or Sunsail, and just fly down to it (or one of their other bases) and sail for 3-4 weeks a year?... or Should we buy a used (but newer, say 2000-2002) sailboat in the 35'-range, and have it nearby and available to sail all season? (I guess the third option is that maybe we should be more conservative, keep the cash in the bank, and just charter a boat several times a year wherever we want.) We are leaning towards a buy-program with a charter company, but not so much that we've made the decision. If you've found yourself in this delimma and found inspiration / information that helped you make up your mind, I'd love to hear it! Thanks in advance - Walt
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Bob Pugh
Buy, Charter, Rent
After three (3) years of dealing with the upkeep costs, maintenance time, and lack of good sailing conditions here in San Diego, we are selling our boat (a Hunter 380 bought new). We feel that renting locally and chartering in the Caribbean will be much more fun and a lot easier on our pocketbook. (We have already set up a Caribbean charter for next May.) Our current monthly recurring costs with slip fees, maintenance (I do all my own), taxes, and insurance, we are spending just under $1,000 per month. That does not include the opportunity cost of having $190,000 tied up in a boat. Most true sailors will scoff at my analytical method of determining the value of the boat to us. However, I did the same thing five (5) years ago with the golf club membership, and it was a good decision. Sailing is great! I wish we could afford to do everything, but it is not possible save for a very few people. What I cannot quantify and would not want to is the great feeling of hanging around the marina and feeling the air in what little hair I have left when you are out on a close reach. We will miss that greatly. I hope this helps!
After three (3) years of dealing with the upkeep costs, maintenance time, and lack of good sailing conditions here in San Diego, we are selling our boat (a Hunter 380 bought new). We feel that renting locally and chartering in the Caribbean will be much more fun and a lot easier on our pocketbook. (We have already set up a Caribbean charter for next May.) Our current monthly recurring costs with slip fees, maintenance (I do all my own), taxes, and insurance, we are spending just under $1,000 per month. That does not include the opportunity cost of having $190,000 tied up in a boat. Most true sailors will scoff at my analytical method of determining the value of the boat to us. However, I did the same thing five (5) years ago with the golf club membership, and it was a good decision. Sailing is great! I wish we could afford to do everything, but it is not possible save for a very few people. What I cannot quantify and would not want to is the great feeling of hanging around the marina and feeling the air in what little hair I have left when you are out on a close reach. We will miss that greatly. I hope this helps!
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J.B. Dyer
Cruising World
There is a real good article in the August 2003 Cruising World magazine that addresses just about every situation you described. Might help you decide.
There is a real good article in the August 2003 Cruising World magazine that addresses just about every situation you described. Might help you decide.
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Larry W.
Charter or buy, that's the rub
Walt; If you have to go through a lot of soul-searching and cost analysis first, you don't really want to own a boat. Owning your own boat is not about return on the dollar, but is a question of Do You Really Love It? One friend of mine sails a Catalina 25 that he keeps on a trailer, then charters in the Caribbean and the South Pacific, and I know some people who have taken on a partner to help with costs for a 40' boat. One thing I would not do is go into a buy/charter program. Chartering ages a boat and no matter what they say, charter boats are used and abused, and, do you want strangers boinking on your boat? This is all just MHO, though.
Walt; If you have to go through a lot of soul-searching and cost analysis first, you don't really want to own a boat. Owning your own boat is not about return on the dollar, but is a question of Do You Really Love It? One friend of mine sails a Catalina 25 that he keeps on a trailer, then charters in the Caribbean and the South Pacific, and I know some people who have taken on a partner to help with costs for a 40' boat. One thing I would not do is go into a buy/charter program. Chartering ages a boat and no matter what they say, charter boats are used and abused, and, do you want strangers boinking on your boat? This is all just MHO, though.
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Brian Leney
My 2 cents
If both of you like sailing, and you are very willing to spend some money on this expensive hobby (sounds like you are), buy a smaller boat for your local use, and charter someone elses in the rest of the world. There is no cost justification to owning a "recreational vessel," just enjoyment. Only you can decide if the expenses are worth the joy. You may want to look in the archives on this Web site, since this topic comes up for discussion quite frequently. Many pros, many cons. Now, about your signature "Walt of Annapolis, MD" at the top of your posting: I live in Annapolis too and my marina is a five-minute walk away--If you want me to show you how to get to the Bay from Annapolis in less than 1.5 hours, let me know! We too used to have a 1.5 hr commute to our boat when we lived in Fairfax. Decided to fix that little commute once and for all.
If both of you like sailing, and you are very willing to spend some money on this expensive hobby (sounds like you are), buy a smaller boat for your local use, and charter someone elses in the rest of the world. There is no cost justification to owning a "recreational vessel," just enjoyment. Only you can decide if the expenses are worth the joy. You may want to look in the archives on this Web site, since this topic comes up for discussion quite frequently. Many pros, many cons. Now, about your signature "Walt of Annapolis, MD" at the top of your posting: I live in Annapolis too and my marina is a five-minute walk away--If you want me to show you how to get to the Bay from Annapolis in less than 1.5 hours, let me know! We too used to have a 1.5 hr commute to our boat when we lived in Fairfax. Decided to fix that little commute once and for all.
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David Foster
Buy and Charter
One of the advantages of buying Lady Lillie (a 27 foot '77 h27) has been increased comfort with chartering. Do you really need so new and so big for the local boat? We have about $2,500 per year in maintenance, haul out, and the dock, with a total of around $18,000 in the boat, sails, and major fixes from the surveyors report. So the opportunity cost is much lower. Since buying our own boat, we have developed a pattern of one far away charter per year. The Caribbean, the North Channel, the Apostle Islands, and the west coast of Sweden are under our belt or in our plans. We were 5 minutes from the marina (loved the evening sunset sails) but moved south to Columbus last winter, so now we are 2 1/2 hours away. We've made it up every other week-end, and taken one 11 day cruise for a total of 22 nights on the boat so far. But if the costs were much higher, and the time available less, we would probably buy a small boat close to home, and charter for the rest. David Lady Lillie
One of the advantages of buying Lady Lillie (a 27 foot '77 h27) has been increased comfort with chartering. Do you really need so new and so big for the local boat? We have about $2,500 per year in maintenance, haul out, and the dock, with a total of around $18,000 in the boat, sails, and major fixes from the surveyors report. So the opportunity cost is much lower. Since buying our own boat, we have developed a pattern of one far away charter per year. The Caribbean, the North Channel, the Apostle Islands, and the west coast of Sweden are under our belt or in our plans. We were 5 minutes from the marina (loved the evening sunset sails) but moved south to Columbus last winter, so now we are 2 1/2 hours away. We've made it up every other week-end, and taken one 11 day cruise for a total of 22 nights on the boat so far. But if the costs were much higher, and the time available less, we would probably buy a small boat close to home, and charter for the rest. David Lady Lillie
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Paul
I always wondered....
If owning a boat for charter is such a great thing, how come all of the charter companies want somebody else to do the owning?
If owning a boat for charter is such a great thing, how come all of the charter companies want somebody else to do the owning?
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Walt Allensworth
Home Port...
Brian - I do most of my water-related activity out of Annapolis, alas 1 hours away, and since POOLESVILLE Maryland is not on navigable water, I figured it would be more appropriate to list Annapolis as my "Home Port". Plus, that's where I hope to have my sailboat docked someday. Yeah, I'd LOVE to get closer to the Bay, but don't relish the $50K relocation cost. Heck, that kinda money would get me into a 5-year charter program on a 40-ft boat!
Brian - I do most of my water-related activity out of Annapolis, alas 1 hours away, and since POOLESVILLE Maryland is not on navigable water, I figured it would be more appropriate to list Annapolis as my "Home Port". Plus, that's where I hope to have my sailboat docked someday. Yeah, I'd LOVE to get closer to the Bay, but don't relish the $50K relocation cost. Heck, that kinda money would get me into a 5-year charter program on a 40-ft boat!
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Walt Allensworth
Paul... $$$-driven
I've got to believe that the charter companies need the owners primarily for the up-front money necessary to commission each boat. Figure the Moorings has around 1000-boats at an average price of $200K. You need around 25% down to get a loan. So, at $50K a pop, that's $50-million bucks they'd have to have "invested" in the fleet. Much better to have somebody elses money tied up! :^) Even worse, they'd have to come up with 1/5th of that every year for new boats (the cycle time is about 5-years per boat). So... they'd need $10M a year just to keep things cycling through. The charter company also get the added benefit of the owner shoulder alot of the risk... particularly the disposal risk of the boat. I think this is a secondary, but important factor for them. If your boat goes out of charter service and sits on the hard for 8-months before a buyer is found, you foot the bill. If they owned the boat, THEY would foot the bill. Kinda risky for them. So.... I'm thinking that the Buy/Charter makes the most sense for an individual if you plan to sail alot in the first 5 years (3-4 weeks a year), and then take delivery of the boat. This method gets the most out of the plan, with little exit-strategy risk because you're taking delivery of the boat. That's my latest thinking, anyhow. I'd be happy for anyone to poke holes in this theory. Better now, than later!
I've got to believe that the charter companies need the owners primarily for the up-front money necessary to commission each boat. Figure the Moorings has around 1000-boats at an average price of $200K. You need around 25% down to get a loan. So, at $50K a pop, that's $50-million bucks they'd have to have "invested" in the fleet. Much better to have somebody elses money tied up! :^) Even worse, they'd have to come up with 1/5th of that every year for new boats (the cycle time is about 5-years per boat). So... they'd need $10M a year just to keep things cycling through. The charter company also get the added benefit of the owner shoulder alot of the risk... particularly the disposal risk of the boat. I think this is a secondary, but important factor for them. If your boat goes out of charter service and sits on the hard for 8-months before a buyer is found, you foot the bill. If they owned the boat, THEY would foot the bill. Kinda risky for them. So.... I'm thinking that the Buy/Charter makes the most sense for an individual if you plan to sail alot in the first 5 years (3-4 weeks a year), and then take delivery of the boat. This method gets the most out of the plan, with little exit-strategy risk because you're taking delivery of the boat. That's my latest thinking, anyhow. I'd be happy for anyone to poke holes in this theory. Better now, than later!
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Glenn Greene
How Picky Are You?
Another factor is how picky are you about little scratches, dings, burns, tears, etc? If these are going to bug you when you take delivery in 5 years, perhaps this isn't for you. On the other hand if these wear and tear items, which are higher on charters, won't bother you then it might not be a bad deal. My biggest concern is the charter companies want to use the boat while it is brand new, as soon as it starts to show it's age they want out. Most privately owned boats I've seen still look like new at 5 years, will a chartered boat?
Another factor is how picky are you about little scratches, dings, burns, tears, etc? If these are going to bug you when you take delivery in 5 years, perhaps this isn't for you. On the other hand if these wear and tear items, which are higher on charters, won't bother you then it might not be a bad deal. My biggest concern is the charter companies want to use the boat while it is brand new, as soon as it starts to show it's age they want out. Most privately owned boats I've seen still look like new at 5 years, will a chartered boat?
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Steve W.
Another Thought
Walt - One other consideration is whether or not the charter company you're considering has boats that you'd actually want to own when it comes out of charter (assuming you're going to keep the boat). While the Moorings takes exceptional care of their fleet, they just don't have a boat I'd want to own as my cruising vessel. They configure boats to maximize the number of berths on board, not for the comfort of a cruising couple with occasional guests. Sunsail is a little better, but they still have the "maximize" philosophy. If I was going to put a boat in charter, I'd look for a company that allows you to choose the boat with fewest limitations. Fair winds, Steve S/V Options
Walt - One other consideration is whether or not the charter company you're considering has boats that you'd actually want to own when it comes out of charter (assuming you're going to keep the boat). While the Moorings takes exceptional care of their fleet, they just don't have a boat I'd want to own as my cruising vessel. They configure boats to maximize the number of berths on board, not for the comfort of a cruising couple with occasional guests. Sunsail is a little better, but they still have the "maximize" philosophy. If I was going to put a boat in charter, I'd look for a company that allows you to choose the boat with fewest limitations. Fair winds, Steve S/V Options
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Walt Allensworth
That is a problem...
Steve... good point. I would definately charter a boat first, before considering buying it. I went through this whole thing about 2 years ago, and chartered a Beneteau/Moorings 402CC to make sure it was the boat for me. It's a nice boat, but I wouldn't buy it. Also, I'll definately charter first before I hook-up with a charter company. That was another reason I went with the Moorings the last time. They do keep their boats nice, but they are not perfect. Example: the anchor light didn't work on the boat I had (out of Tortola). They said - "Oh, don't worry about it, nobody really uses their anchor lights anyway." I said "OH REALLY?" Also... I've noticed a disparity between the treatment you read about in the glossy brochure, and the treatment you get at the dock. After reading the Moorings brochure I expected to have my boat provisioned and the motor running when I got there, ready to go. Reality was that I had to chase them down to get my food brought out, and then we had to stow it ourselves. Also, they brought out ALL the food for two weeks for 6 people, even though I asked to get it half-and-half because of storage concerns. Let me tell you, it was TIGHT, and filling the freezer to THE TOP is a bad idea. So... anyhow... I don't want to turn this thread into a Moorings bash. Generally I was happy with the boat
Steve... good point. I would definately charter a boat first, before considering buying it. I went through this whole thing about 2 years ago, and chartered a Beneteau/Moorings 402CC to make sure it was the boat for me. It's a nice boat, but I wouldn't buy it. Also, I'll definately charter first before I hook-up with a charter company. That was another reason I went with the Moorings the last time. They do keep their boats nice, but they are not perfect. Example: the anchor light didn't work on the boat I had (out of Tortola). They said - "Oh, don't worry about it, nobody really uses their anchor lights anyway." I said "OH REALLY?" Also... I've noticed a disparity between the treatment you read about in the glossy brochure, and the treatment you get at the dock. After reading the Moorings brochure I expected to have my boat provisioned and the motor running when I got there, ready to go. Reality was that I had to chase them down to get my food brought out, and then we had to stow it ourselves. Also, they brought out ALL the food for two weeks for 6 people, even though I asked to get it half-and-half because of storage concerns. Let me tell you, it was TIGHT, and filling the freezer to THE TOP is a bad idea. So... anyhow... I don't want to turn this thread into a Moorings bash. Generally I was happy with the boat
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Brian Leney
Back to Annapolis
Walt, One other option you might consider since you have a fondness for Annapolis (as well as more exotic locales): For less than what I pay for a yearly slip in Annapolis ($4,400 on Back Creek), you can join a boat club. The one I'm familiar with is also on Back Creek located at J-Port, right next to our marina. For a yearly membership fee *starting* at $4,000, you can have access to a fleet of sailboats or power boats. Want a day sail? Reserve a 24' J-Boat. Cruise for a few days? Go for a 32' J-Boat. Want to get to St. Michaels in an hour? Take an Albin 28, which can run at 24 knots, and is quite sweet. All reservations can be done over the Internet. I am not a club member and have no interest in the company, but I do know the owner and it is a reputable company with first-class boats. The advantages are obvious--minimal $$$ investment and access to good boats. No long term commitment, no maintenance, no slip fees, no resale hassle. The $4,000/yr is entry level--the more use you want, the more you will pay. Check their Web site at http://www.jportannapolis.com/j_club/Default.asp Or just www.jportannapolis.com And click on Chesapeake Boat Club tab for their power boat offerings. I seriously look at this option myself every year, when my slip bill comes. Ouch!
Walt, One other option you might consider since you have a fondness for Annapolis (as well as more exotic locales): For less than what I pay for a yearly slip in Annapolis ($4,400 on Back Creek), you can join a boat club. The one I'm familiar with is also on Back Creek located at J-Port, right next to our marina. For a yearly membership fee *starting* at $4,000, you can have access to a fleet of sailboats or power boats. Want a day sail? Reserve a 24' J-Boat. Cruise for a few days? Go for a 32' J-Boat. Want to get to St. Michaels in an hour? Take an Albin 28, which can run at 24 knots, and is quite sweet. All reservations can be done over the Internet. I am not a club member and have no interest in the company, but I do know the owner and it is a reputable company with first-class boats. The advantages are obvious--minimal $$$ investment and access to good boats. No long term commitment, no maintenance, no slip fees, no resale hassle. The $4,000/yr is entry level--the more use you want, the more you will pay. Check their Web site at http://www.jportannapolis.com/j_club/Default.asp Or just www.jportannapolis.com And click on Chesapeake Boat Club tab for their power boat offerings. I seriously look at this option myself every year, when my slip bill comes. Ouch!
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Walt Allensworth
Brian - Interesting!
I've never heard of that kind of set-up! Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.
I've never heard of that kind of set-up! Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.
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