Butyl bedding dilemma

[Sefuller]

I have an Oday 34 with teak handrails on the cabintop which are through bolted into handrails on the interior, so the sequence from the outside is: teak handrail, 2" black plastic standoff, cabintop, 2" black plastic standoff, teak handrail. They are held together with long #10 stainless screws and nuts, and the holes are then filled with 3/8" teak bungs. My problem as I am rebedding with butyl tape is how to tighten them without turning the screws and messing up the beautiful cone of butyl tape I have carefully prepared where each standoff meets the cabintop. The options I see are to enlarge the hole on the inner handrail so that I can use a 3/8" socket on the nut, which would then require a 1/2" bung instead of 3/8", or I wondered if I could wax the screw so that the tape doesn't adhere to it while it is tightened?? Any other suggestions are welcome - I'm not crazy about making the larger bungs if I can avoid it. Do I even need to be concerned about twisting the tape by turning the screw?

--
Scott

 

[Harlan]

You probably won't be happy with my answer but I been there...

There is a gap between the deck and the liner so you can't get these bolts as tight as you'd liike as it just compresses the deck to liner. And any leaks will end up between the deck and liner - a bad place. I'd remove everything, squirt epoxy thickened with cabosil into the space between deck and liner so you have a 1 or 2" diameter solid area at each hole and then redrill the holes. Now you can tighten the bolts appropriately. Any leaks, which will be very unlikely, will end up inside the cabin so you know they exist and can fix them. I made a small fixture and used a router to smooth the exterior non-skid at each plastic support. Just trimmed off one or 2 hundredths to leave it flat and smooth in exactly the size and shape of the plastic support. I used 1/4" bolts instead of #10 for more strength. Just bore out larger holes for the heads and nuts and use larger bungs. You tend to step on the side of the rail, especially when the boat is healed, so the force on the rail is levering it to the side. If the rail isn't rock solid it is going to leak. My fix is now about 15 years old and works great.

 

[Sefuller]

Already took care of the space ...

I filled the space in between the liner and deck around each hole with urethane foam, then used a dremel to grind it out so I could epoxy pot each hole. The butyl tape is perfect for this application because of the potential movement of the upper handrail, but I still need a solution for how to bed the standoffs and be able to tighten the screws without them twisting and pulling the butyl tape. I am thinking about sleeving the screws above the deck with a brass tube - if the tube extended up into the standoff by an inch or so, water would never get up to the top of the tube, the outside of the tube and standoff would be well-bedded to the cabintop with the butyl tape, while still permitting the screw to turn freely inside. The tube would bottom out in my countersink around each of the holes.

 

[finding41]

I would shove a flat screw driver in beside the head of the bolt and turn it slightly to bind the bolt while tightening the nut. That will hold the bolt enough to get it tight. Try and make sure you don't damage the top of the hole ware the bung goes. Be gentle!
Remember you have to do this twice to get it tightened properly. Wait a day at least.
How did you get it apart without damaging the rail/bungs? If you did damage the rail your best bet for a nice look is to re drill and put larger bungs in.
Good luck.

 

[Sefuller]

That doesn't really solve the problem -

ideally I would turn the nut, not the screw. Turning the screw if it passes through the butyl tape, it grabs the tape and pulls it. Barring a better suggestion, I will try the brass sleeves, isolating the screw from the tape.

I would shove a flat screw driver in beside the head of the bolt and turn it slightly to bind the bolt while tightening the nut. That will hold the bolt enough to get it tight. Try and make sure you don't damage the top of the hole ware the bung goes. Be gentle!
Remember you have to do this twice to get it tightened properly. Wait a day at least.
How did you get it apart without damaging the rail/bungs? If you did damage the rail your best bet for a nice look is to re drill and put larger bungs in.
Good luck.

 

[Cool Beans]

Not sure how much work you want to put into this, but how much of the screw threads into the nut? Could you cut a slot in the head of an acorn nut and tighten it down with a flat head screw driver from the inside while someone outside holds the screw from turning? Just a thought. . .or just use regular "caulk" and run the screws home There are a couple instances on my boat where butyl wasn't workable (my hands rails have wood screws through the cabin top into the rails). I used a gob of life caulk, drove them home, and no leaks yet "knocks on wood"

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

You'll be less happy with my answer than with Harlan's; but those who know me here will know what I am going to say about butyl tape; and as a professional boat designer, builder and restorer of 40 years I would not recommend butyl tape for bedding down anything as important as handrails that are intended to be a safe handhold for keeping you on the boat.

 

[Maine Sail]

I have an Oday 34 with teak handrails on the cabintop which are through bolted into handrails on the interior, so the sequence from the outside is: teak handrail, 2" black plastic standoff, cabintop, 2" black plastic standoff, teak handrail. They are held together with long #10 stainless screws and nuts, and the holes are then filled with 3/8" teak bungs. My problem as I am rebedding with butyl tape is how to tighten them without turning the screws and messing up the beautiful cone of butyl tape I have carefully prepared where each standoff meets the cabintop. The options I see are to enlarge the hole on the inner handrail so that I can use a 3/8" socket on the nut, which would then require a 1/2" bung instead of 3/8", or I wondered if I could wax the screw so that the tape doesn't adhere to it while it is tightened?? Any other suggestions are welcome - I'm not crazy about making the larger bungs if I can avoid it. Do I even need to be concerned about twisting the tape by turning the screw?

--
Scott

I would go to the 1/2"" bungs. Takes but a few minutes to over size the holes. Just did 8 holes ysterday on a customers Cape Dory where the owner made a huge mess getting the old bungs out. Had no choice but to over-size them. Luckily it was an oiled finish so the blend was not discernible... That said if your cone is good they will still seal with "some" twisting but possibly not all twisting..

 

[Sefuller]

I'm curious as to why??

How would the bedding affect the capability of the handhold?

--
Scott

...as a professional boat designer, builder and restorer of 40 years I would not recommend butyl tape for bedding down anything as important as handrails that are intended to be a safe handhold for keeping you on the boat.

 

[Maine Sail]

How would the bedding affect the capability of the handhold?

--
Scott

Do you use 3M 5200 & bed the wheels on your car to hold them on, nope that's what the bolts are for.....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Many boats have two ways to hold down the handrails: bolts & bungs and screws from the bottom. When removing the handrail, do NOT bang up on the bolts, just remove the acorn nuts and washers, then back off the screws and bang lightly upwards on the screws. This avoids banging the bungs out.

 

[Sefuller]

This mounting method is a pain in the neck -

I did end up making 1/2" holes on the exterior, but they are still not large enough to get a socket on the nut, which makes getting them started a real pain. I am going to remove them again over the winter to do more core repairs on the cabin top, and I think I will mount the exterior handrails first. I plan to use a cap screw with allen or star drive with a coupling nut on the inside, and then mount the inside handrails to the coupling nuts using the same type of screw. The coupling nuts would be concealed in the standoffs. After I've repaired the wet core, I can't see a need to remove them again for a long time.

Many boats have two ways to hold down the handrails: bolts & bungs and screws from the bottom. When removing the handrail, do NOT bang up on the bolts, just remove the acorn nuts and washers, then back off the screws and bang lightly upwards on the screws. This avoids banging the bungs out.