Hi. I'm very new to sailing. Planning on buying my first boat at the end of this month. It's a 1974 Columbia 22. I know smaller boats, sunfish and lazers and such, are built with air pockets in the hulls to keep them afloat when they tip over. I was wondering if a Columbia 22 is built like that also. Of course, it will be a while before I take it anywhere that it might capsize, but it is something that I think I might eventually be concerned about. Thanks.
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capsize
A boat like a Columbia 23 is ballasted, while board boats, like the Laser, are not. Being ballasted, they will respond differently to too much wind. My limited experience on board boats taught me, when you push them to far, they don't give you much warning and you're in the drink. Fortunately, they are usually not too hard to right. It is not like that with a ballasted boat. the ballast, low in the boat or in the keel, is constantly fighting to keep the boat level. If you push it too hard, the boat, because of the ballast, will give you time to put her back on her feet by heading up into the wind or easing the main. A sudden gust could knock the boat down (mast flat in the water), but the ballast almost always puts the boat back on her feet since the pressure of the wind will now be off the sails. I would guess most non racing sailors never experience a knockdown. Should the boat suffer a knockdown and the sail gets under the surface of the water, one has problems. the ballast may not be able to force the sails out of the water, and the boat could sink because water will eventually pour into the cabin. Ballasted boats are far more stable than board boats and stuff like this is extremely uncommon. For a good understanding what ballasted boats do in severe conditions, I would recommend you read Heavy Weather Sailing by - I think - adler Coles. It is a collection of true sea stories that is great reading and good information.
A boat like a Columbia 23 is ballasted, while board boats, like the Laser, are not. Being ballasted, they will respond differently to too much wind. My limited experience on board boats taught me, when you push them to far, they don't give you much warning and you're in the drink. Fortunately, they are usually not too hard to right. It is not like that with a ballasted boat. the ballast, low in the boat or in the keel, is constantly fighting to keep the boat level. If you push it too hard, the boat, because of the ballast, will give you time to put her back on her feet by heading up into the wind or easing the main. A sudden gust could knock the boat down (mast flat in the water), but the ballast almost always puts the boat back on her feet since the pressure of the wind will now be off the sails. I would guess most non racing sailors never experience a knockdown. Should the boat suffer a knockdown and the sail gets under the surface of the water, one has problems. the ballast may not be able to force the sails out of the water, and the boat could sink because water will eventually pour into the cabin. Ballasted boats are far more stable than board boats and stuff like this is extremely uncommon. For a good understanding what ballasted boats do in severe conditions, I would recommend you read Heavy Weather Sailing by - I think - adler Coles. It is a collection of true sea stories that is great reading and good information.
Higgs is correct, Keel boats don't capsize, they get knockdowns
When a keelboat is knocked flat it has its greatest righting moment because the center of gravity is furthest from the center of buoyancy. and the righting moment is almost always positive. The righting moment is only zero for only an instant if you force the boat to go completely upside down, when the center of gravity is precariously balanced over the center of buoyancy, and then the boat moves a hair and it becomes positive again. Keel boats do get rolled by huge waves that generally hit them after they get knocked flat in conditions you are likely never to see in a smaller boat, (unless of course you single hand across an ocean). In those conditions you would have your companionway closed to keep the water out, and the boat would continue the roll until it came upright again (You would have to hang on). Centerboard boats capsize because they rely on hull form to provide stability, and its normally measured in meteracentric (sp?) height, and like in a power boat, their stability is greatest at low angles of heel. To simplify, the center of buoyancy moves out-board from the center of gravity to create the righting moment, but at some point as the boat continues to heel, the center of gravity passes above the center of buoyancy, and the boat continues to capsize. The difference between the two is why most of us sail keel boats. Hope that puts your mind to rest. Joe
When a keelboat is knocked flat it has its greatest righting moment because the center of gravity is furthest from the center of buoyancy. and the righting moment is almost always positive. The righting moment is only zero for only an instant if you force the boat to go completely upside down, when the center of gravity is precariously balanced over the center of buoyancy, and then the boat moves a hair and it becomes positive again. Keel boats do get rolled by huge waves that generally hit them after they get knocked flat in conditions you are likely never to see in a smaller boat, (unless of course you single hand across an ocean). In those conditions you would have your companionway closed to keep the water out, and the boat would continue the roll until it came upright again (You would have to hang on). Centerboard boats capsize because they rely on hull form to provide stability, and its normally measured in meteracentric (sp?) height, and like in a power boat, their stability is greatest at low angles of heel. To simplify, the center of buoyancy moves out-board from the center of gravity to create the righting moment, but at some point as the boat continues to heel, the center of gravity passes above the center of buoyancy, and the boat continues to capsize. The difference between the two is why most of us sail keel boats. Hope that puts your mind to rest. Joe
Test ride
See if you can get the current owner of the Columbia to take you out for a little lesson. Get him/her to heel it over pretty well and you'll get a feel for what the other guys were talking about regarding bouyancy vs. gravity, etc. I'd guess that the boat will sail optimally at an angle of heel further over than what you might be comfortable with at first. It does take some getting used to the idea of trusting that keel to keep you dry.
See if you can get the current owner of the Columbia to take you out for a little lesson. Get him/her to heel it over pretty well and you'll get a feel for what the other guys were talking about regarding bouyancy vs. gravity, etc. I'd guess that the boat will sail optimally at an angle of heel further over than what you might be comfortable with at first. It does take some getting used to the idea of trusting that keel to keep you dry.
Almost impossible
IT's almost impossible to capsize a keel boat. Even if you try. A big gust can of course knock you down, but other than that, it's basically impossible. My S2 does not like to sail with over 20 degrees of heel. Over 20 degrees it is very hard to keep it on course, and by 25 it will round up. Makes no difference what you do, if you get that puppy over to 25, which in itself is difficult, it is going to round up if you don't ease off.
IT's almost impossible to capsize a keel boat. Even if you try. A big gust can of course knock you down, but other than that, it's basically impossible. My S2 does not like to sail with over 20 degrees of heel. Over 20 degrees it is very hard to keep it on course, and by 25 it will round up. Makes no difference what you do, if you get that puppy over to 25, which in itself is difficult, it is going to round up if you don't ease off.
And welcome to sailing!
I feel obligated to offer advice. Hope you don't mind. The biggest mistake I've made in the sport of sailing is buying my first boat. It was too small. Get the biggest boat that you can afford. OK, now to climb down.*box
I feel obligated to offer advice. Hope you don't mind. The biggest mistake I've made in the sport of sailing is buying my first boat. It was too small. Get the biggest boat that you can afford. OK, now to climb down.*box
training
The best training you can find as a new sailor is to crew on an experienced sailor's boat for racing. Then be sure to take your own boat out for less intense sailing applying the things you learn from others. Additionally, you will make a lot of friends, and you may even like racing. In any case, you will find it jump starts your sailing skills and gets you more comfortable on your own boat very quickly. Enjoy, you're giving yourself a great hobby/way of life. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
The best training you can find as a new sailor is to crew on an experienced sailor's boat for racing. Then be sure to take your own boat out for less intense sailing applying the things you learn from others. Additionally, you will make a lot of friends, and you may even like racing. In any case, you will find it jump starts your sailing skills and gets you more comfortable on your own boat very quickly. Enjoy, you're giving yourself a great hobby/way of life. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Small Keelboats
Very probably, your boat will not float if filled with water. OTH, it is, as others have indicated, very hard to capsize, generally, it takes some pretty big breaking waves to do it. I have been knocked to near 90 deg in a J22 in a thunderstorm microburst. Water was coming up over the comings into the cockpit. When she rounded up enough, the boat came back upright and I got the main sail down to regain control. This happened on a lake and we did not have significant waves to contend with. Most fin keel boats have an angle of vanishing stability around 120 degrees, plus or minus 15 degrees. The means the mast can point down some 30 degrees from horizontal and boat should right itself. On a small keel boat in the 22 foot range, crew can have a big effect. A local sailing instructor did sink a J22 here in shallow water when two very heavy students refused to move during a tack and they got hit by a knockdown gust, enough water came in and the boat sank in 6-8 feet of water, with just the top of the coachroof showing. A small keelboat, 23 foot or so and smaller is much like a cross between a dinghy and a bigger keelboat, generally they won't capsize, but crew weight and not being aggressive and going sailing when or where waves are larger and breaking is a must. Small craft warnings would generally be worth avoiding in a smaller craft. I think you will enjoy a boat in the 22' range if you take care to sail it in reasonable conditions. I have been sailing the J's for 5 years now. This is a move up from the 22 year old catamaran that I bought new, but I am almost getting too old for, though I still use it now and then. OC
Very probably, your boat will not float if filled with water. OTH, it is, as others have indicated, very hard to capsize, generally, it takes some pretty big breaking waves to do it. I have been knocked to near 90 deg in a J22 in a thunderstorm microburst. Water was coming up over the comings into the cockpit. When she rounded up enough, the boat came back upright and I got the main sail down to regain control. This happened on a lake and we did not have significant waves to contend with. Most fin keel boats have an angle of vanishing stability around 120 degrees, plus or minus 15 degrees. The means the mast can point down some 30 degrees from horizontal and boat should right itself. On a small keel boat in the 22 foot range, crew can have a big effect. A local sailing instructor did sink a J22 here in shallow water when two very heavy students refused to move during a tack and they got hit by a knockdown gust, enough water came in and the boat sank in 6-8 feet of water, with just the top of the coachroof showing. A small keelboat, 23 foot or so and smaller is much like a cross between a dinghy and a bigger keelboat, generally they won't capsize, but crew weight and not being aggressive and going sailing when or where waves are larger and breaking is a must. Small craft warnings would generally be worth avoiding in a smaller craft. I think you will enjoy a boat in the 22' range if you take care to sail it in reasonable conditions. I have been sailing the J's for 5 years now. This is a move up from the 22 year old catamaran that I bought new, but I am almost getting too old for, though I still use it now and then. OC
If you have room under the cockpit
you can do what Macgregor did, and add a couple of large blocks of rigid foam for positive buoyancy if you are worried about it. I take my 22-2 out in small craft advisory conditions, but sail within my ability and experience, and if the waves get too big, I am not embarrassed to call it a day. Tim
you can do what Macgregor did, and add a couple of large blocks of rigid foam for positive buoyancy if you are worried about it. I take my 22-2 out in small craft advisory conditions, but sail within my ability and experience, and if the waves get too big, I am not embarrassed to call it a day. Tim
Remember 60 pounds per cubic foot of foam is all
you get for bouyancy. Do the math. GRP has a specific gravity of about 1.1 to 1.3. Add in the metals and subtract the wood. then balance the equation with foam. You can't load 30 pounds of gold into your pockets and make shore with a type 2 PFD.
you get for bouyancy. Do the math. GRP has a specific gravity of about 1.1 to 1.3. Add in the metals and subtract the wood. then balance the equation with foam. You can't load 30 pounds of gold into your pockets and make shore with a type 2 PFD.
quit worrying about it....
....get the boat and start sailing. It's very hard to capsize a keel boat. You're more likely to sink it in a collision than by flipping it over. Take some sailing lessons and buy some safety equipment for the boat.... you'll be fine.
....get the boat and start sailing. It's very hard to capsize a keel boat. You're more likely to sink it in a collision than by flipping it over. Take some sailing lessons and buy some safety equipment for the boat.... you'll be fine.
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