Great info!!!!
I need to talk to my bank about that. I don't want to send a deposit to a random company's account.
Broker related question
- Thread starter xavpil
- Start date
actually BoatUS has a one page template that, IMO, has everything I need!
The sellers may not agreeable to your contingencies, as common or as reasonable as they may be. You may need to walk away. I would not hire a lawyer at my own expense. I'm not sure you will find a broker on your side to hold your hand unless there is a substantial share of the commission. The best bet and the best service, in my opinion, is to work with the seller's broker to handle the details. When you are shopping for a boat, you are likely to contact a different broker for every boat you look at. With a stroke of luck, one of those brokers may steer you toward another suitable boat if the one you initially looked at isn't exactly what you want. A broker is a broker and they will help the buyer and seller equally to get a sale completed. Take advantage of that fact. Some are better than others for sure. It's up to you to find the deal you can trust.
Thanks for the great input.
I just did walk away.
Learned a lot..... but disapointing
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,787
There is another option.
If you like the boat, it is the boat for you.... You are "Boatstruck" by that boat...
Rewrite the contract. Add the items you want in the contract. If satisfied, sign the amended contract, deposit earnest money and send it to the broker. Now it is in their ball park to accept your terms... or walk away.
I see this sentiment from time to time but question its true value. It’s close to advising a “shot in the dark” versus contracting the services of a well known, even reputable, surveyor that works the local area and who is known to the brokers. There aren’t that many who are well established with local yards. A broker may have very few to advise from, depending on the size of the marine business of the area. What?, s/he is going to recommend a “sleazy” one? Or, a lazy/sloppy one to maybe produce this one sale? Most buyers it seems really want a cheap one; i.e., not an especially thorough one ($$). Better to compare the broker’s recommendation with a random pick(s) from the local area. Compare prices; do phone interviews; consider availability to get to your job. The busy one(s) might suggest good work that is in high demand. Maybe disregard some of these “canned advices”; do your homework. Like everything else in boating, “it depends.”
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When you think about it, why would a "seller's broker" want to deal with any customer that drags along their own "Buyer's broker". Most brokers don't seem to be living on easy street to me and sharing a substantial share of their income with a tag-along broker is a big discouragement. I think if I was a broker trying to sell a boat I wouldn't want to share my income, either, and I would probably look for reasons to shoo such a buyer away (depending on the market). If you are a buyer shopping on Yacht World, doing all the screening work yourself, why would you want to have your own broker anyway? It's easy to find a boat with a reputable broker ... they advertise the boats on Yacht World. Why would you be hesitant to place your deposit in escrow with established brokers? Deposits are typically insignificantly small anyway. The broker is in the business of making a deal for both sides and handling the details. Why muddy the waters with extra people, all with hands out? I think it's silly to get into a fret over a simple boat transaction.
If you go to a yacht brokerage (brick & mortar) looking for, say, a certain model or general type but with flexibility and do not bite on any of the inventory there, the broker may offer to help you find a boat that more suits your needs. The broker will offer to contact you if a candidate shows up somewhere near, etc. S/he finds one that you have interest in listed elsewhere, so out of courtesy, that person being local, you wish to continuing working w/ her/him. In my opinion that person is then functioning as a “buyer’s broker.” I expect the two brokers involved would figure how to divide the commission. Everybody gets something and the buyer also gets potentially some reliable advice on the purchase from “his” broker, etc. Perhaps also help with negotiation. Not a bad way to proceed, IMO.
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Buying a used boat is similar to buying a used car.
When we did our search, we found these tips to sales prices.
My best tips:
1) Most boats depreciate each year in December, until the Bank loan value "flat lines" (Usually about 15-18 years old). The point: Price drops since Boat loanable amounts changes at end of year.
2) List price / Average Boat Loan value * 100 = Pricing Class %
1) 90 - 100% ( need to sell )
2) 100-110 % ( looking to sell)
3) 110-130 % (hoping to sell)
4) 130+% ( We don't want to sell our baby) ( you need to pay for our new 6 pairs of racing gloves)
3) Find a "Buyers Broker" they are working for you and share in the Sellers paid commission.
Those lists above are fluid and interchangeable as you search.
Shopping is fun too.
Jim...
PS: Banks have a Kelly's Blue Book for boats.
PSS: My wife is a Real estate Broker.
When we did our search, we found these tips to sales prices.
My best tips:
1) Most boats depreciate each year in December, until the Bank loan value "flat lines" (Usually about 15-18 years old). The point: Price drops since Boat loanable amounts changes at end of year.
2) List price / Average Boat Loan value * 100 = Pricing Class %
1) 90 - 100% ( need to sell )
2) 100-110 % ( looking to sell)
3) 110-130 % (hoping to sell)
4) 130+% ( We don't want to sell our baby
) ( you need to pay for our new 6 pairs of racing gloves)3) Find a "Buyers Broker" they are working for you and share in the Sellers paid commission.
Those lists above are fluid and interchangeable as you search.
Shopping is fun too.
Jim...
PS: Banks have a Kelly's Blue Book for boats.
PSS: My wife is a Real estate Broker.
Hello,
Are you dealing with a professional broker? Someone who is CPYB certified? The reason I ask that a professional will have standard contract, standard terms, etc. Being CPYB certified doesn't mean they are good, but it does mean they should use the standard contracts.
Personally I don't think the seller / buyer broker will do anything for free. I've bought a bunch of boats w/o a buyer broker. Maybe i've been lucky but I don't know how one would have helped me. Do your diligence on the selling broker and brokerage and then you either trust them or you don't do the deal.
FYI I bought a 2011 Jeannea SO 409 in April of 2021. Let me know if you have any specific questions on the boat.
Lastly here's the contract I received (and signed) back in 2006 when I bought my O'day 35
YACHT: “Curragh” 1986 O’Day 35
BROKER: Warren Trafton, SYRI
THIS SALE INCLUDES the YACHT and all equipment on board, and in storage. This equipment will be available for the BUYER’S inspection / survey and will constitute the full inventory to be delivered with the YACHT at closing.
SELLING PRICE: $XXXXX– DEPOSIT: ,$XXX – Deposit to the SYRI escrow account when both parties have signed this agreement.
SURVEY: The BUYER may survey the YACHT and equipment, at his expense, in a nondestructive manner. The SELLER agrees to make the YACHT and equipment available and ready for survey. The BROKER recommends that the BUYER employ the services of an accredited marine surveyor and that a copy of the written report be provided to the SELLER.
ACCEPTANCE OF THE YACHT: The BUYER shall notify the BROKER in writing (email will suffice) of his acceptance of the YACHT and willingness to complete this purchase or his rejection of the YACHT on or before NOVEMBER 24, 2006. However, if notice has not been received the BUYER shall be deemed to have rejected the YACHT. The DEPOSIT will be returned promptly if the YACHT is rejected minus any unpaid survey costs incurred by the BUYER. It is the BUYER'S responsibility to obtain needed financing, insurance, etc. prior to his acceptance.
SELLER CONFIRMS: 1) That he has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement and that he has good and marketable title to the YACHT. 2) That the YACHT will be sold free and clear of any mortgages, taxes, fees, liens, bills, encumbrances, or claims whatsoever, and that if any such obligations remain outstanding at the CLOSING, they will be paid from the proceeds of this sale. 3) That he will pay the BROKER at closing, a fee equal to ten percent of the SELLING PRICE, and authorizes the BROKER to deduct this fee from the
DEPOSIT. Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement 2 of 2 pages The CLOSING on this sale shall take place on or before NOVEMBER 30, 2006 when all documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the closing agent on behalf of the BUYER and the balance of the SELLING PRICE (cashier's check or wire transfer) has been received by the SELLER, or by the closing agent on behalf of the SELLER.
DEFAULT BY THE SELLER: The SELLER'S failure to deliver the YACHT and all equipment to the BUYER at CLOSING, and in the same condition as when surveyed, or otherwise to perform the terms of this Agreement, shall obligate the SELLER to pay all costs incurred in connection with the BUYER'S survey, and will cause SYRI to refund the DEPOSIT to the BUYER.
DEFAULT BY THE BUYER: In the event that the BUYER, after accepting the YACHT under the terms of this Agreement, fails to fulfill his obligations at CLOSING the DEPOSIT will be forfeited to the SELLER. ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES: Any dispute, controversy or claim relating to this Agreement, including but not limited to the interpretation thereof, or its breach or existence, which cannot be resolved by the BUYER and SELLER shall be referred to the American Arbitration Association, which shall be the sole and exclusive arbiter for resolution and settlement of any dispute, controversy or claim between the parties.
BROKER REPRESENTATION: The BUYER and SELLER each acknowledge and agree that the BROKER represents the interests of both parties.
THE BUYER AND SELLER SIGNING BELOW each asserts that they have read both pages and accept this Agreement in its entirety. The parties may separately execute counterpart documents, which shall be deemed an original of one and the same instrument.
==
The basic point of the contract is that the selling price is established and a deposit amount established. The buyer can have the boat surveyed (at his cost) and can cancel the sale at any time for any reason and is entitled to a complete refund of the deposit.
Barry
Are you dealing with a professional broker? Someone who is CPYB certified? The reason I ask that a professional will have standard contract, standard terms, etc. Being CPYB certified doesn't mean they are good, but it does mean they should use the standard contracts.
Personally I don't think the seller / buyer broker will do anything for free. I've bought a bunch of boats w/o a buyer broker. Maybe i've been lucky but I don't know how one would have helped me. Do your diligence on the selling broker and brokerage and then you either trust them or you don't do the deal.
FYI I bought a 2011 Jeannea SO 409 in April of 2021. Let me know if you have any specific questions on the boat.
Lastly here's the contract I received (and signed) back in 2006 when I bought my O'day 35
YACHT: “Curragh” 1986 O’Day 35
BROKER: Warren Trafton, SYRI
THIS SALE INCLUDES the YACHT and all equipment on board, and in storage. This equipment will be available for the BUYER’S inspection / survey and will constitute the full inventory to be delivered with the YACHT at closing.
SELLING PRICE: $XXXXX– DEPOSIT: ,$XXX – Deposit to the SYRI escrow account when both parties have signed this agreement.
SURVEY: The BUYER may survey the YACHT and equipment, at his expense, in a nondestructive manner. The SELLER agrees to make the YACHT and equipment available and ready for survey. The BROKER recommends that the BUYER employ the services of an accredited marine surveyor and that a copy of the written report be provided to the SELLER.
ACCEPTANCE OF THE YACHT: The BUYER shall notify the BROKER in writing (email will suffice) of his acceptance of the YACHT and willingness to complete this purchase or his rejection of the YACHT on or before NOVEMBER 24, 2006. However, if notice has not been received the BUYER shall be deemed to have rejected the YACHT. The DEPOSIT will be returned promptly if the YACHT is rejected minus any unpaid survey costs incurred by the BUYER. It is the BUYER'S responsibility to obtain needed financing, insurance, etc. prior to his acceptance.
SELLER CONFIRMS: 1) That he has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement and that he has good and marketable title to the YACHT. 2) That the YACHT will be sold free and clear of any mortgages, taxes, fees, liens, bills, encumbrances, or claims whatsoever, and that if any such obligations remain outstanding at the CLOSING, they will be paid from the proceeds of this sale. 3) That he will pay the BROKER at closing, a fee equal to ten percent of the SELLING PRICE, and authorizes the BROKER to deduct this fee from the
DEPOSIT. Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement 2 of 2 pages The CLOSING on this sale shall take place on or before NOVEMBER 30, 2006 when all documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the closing agent on behalf of the BUYER and the balance of the SELLING PRICE (cashier's check or wire transfer) has been received by the SELLER, or by the closing agent on behalf of the SELLER.
DEFAULT BY THE SELLER: The SELLER'S failure to deliver the YACHT and all equipment to the BUYER at CLOSING, and in the same condition as when surveyed, or otherwise to perform the terms of this Agreement, shall obligate the SELLER to pay all costs incurred in connection with the BUYER'S survey, and will cause SYRI to refund the DEPOSIT to the BUYER.
DEFAULT BY THE BUYER: In the event that the BUYER, after accepting the YACHT under the terms of this Agreement, fails to fulfill his obligations at CLOSING the DEPOSIT will be forfeited to the SELLER. ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES: Any dispute, controversy or claim relating to this Agreement, including but not limited to the interpretation thereof, or its breach or existence, which cannot be resolved by the BUYER and SELLER shall be referred to the American Arbitration Association, which shall be the sole and exclusive arbiter for resolution and settlement of any dispute, controversy or claim between the parties.
BROKER REPRESENTATION: The BUYER and SELLER each acknowledge and agree that the BROKER represents the interests of both parties.
THE BUYER AND SELLER SIGNING BELOW each asserts that they have read both pages and accept this Agreement in its entirety. The parties may separately execute counterpart documents, which shall be deemed an original of one and the same instrument.
==
The basic point of the contract is that the selling price is established and a deposit amount established. The buyer can have the boat surveyed (at his cost) and can cancel the sale at any time for any reason and is entitled to a complete refund of the deposit.
Barry
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If you want do your own shopping, here is the Blue Book Value, banks use.
https://www.jdpower.com/boats/sailboats
Jim...
https://www.jdpower.com/boats/sailboats
Jim...
Your need for a broker might depend on how much $$ you are spending.
I bought a 1998 Hunter 280 without a broker (my first boat purchase). Seller had a broker who facilitated the sale, held the escrow, etc.
I sold that boat in a private transaction where neither party had a broker.
I purchased my current 1988 O’Day 322 in a private transaction and neither party had a broker.
All 3 deals went fine but they were also below $30k. Maybe below $25k. Less at risk in this price range.
Greg
So nice of you Barry, it's super helpful!!
I don't see contingencies - or maybe didn't understand the verbiage: purchase depends on loan acceptance, insurance acceptance and survey acceptance
Thx Greg.
My boat is $180,000, first big boat purchase, which explains why I am so careful about red flags, or I should say anything that moves and is red!
A buyer's broker has access to information about the boat that the general public does not have. Specifically they can see how long the boat has been on the market, earlier price reductions, and selling prices, not listing prices, of similar boats. All good information for the buyer.
Brokers often hear about boats coming to the market before they are listed. A buyer's broker will have his ear to the ground and can tell you about these boats before they are listed. Doing this can help a broker sell a different boat or take a boat in trade, if they know they have a potential buyer for the trade-in.
Buying a boat is more like buying a house than a car. Real Estate agents would prefer to sell you a house they have listed, but they are more interested in generating sales and would rather sell a property listed by another brokerage than not make a sale at all.
The amount of effort a broker, either buyer's broker or seller's broker is willing to put into helping a customer find a boat is proportional to the price of the boat. For a boat in the $180K range, they should be willing to put forth some effort to find a boat for you.
The broker is also interested in the next sale. They know that some day you will be selling the boat you are buying and they would like to sell it again. This is especially true for the buyer's broker who is more likely to be a broker closer to home.
Brokers often hear about boats coming to the market before they are listed. A buyer's broker will have his ear to the ground and can tell you about these boats before they are listed. Doing this can help a broker sell a different boat or take a boat in trade, if they know they have a potential buyer for the trade-in.
Buying a boat is more like buying a house than a car. Real Estate agents would prefer to sell you a house they have listed, but they are more interested in generating sales and would rather sell a property listed by another brokerage than not make a sale at all.
The amount of effort a broker, either buyer's broker or seller's broker is willing to put into helping a customer find a boat is proportional to the price of the boat. For a boat in the $180K range, they should be willing to put forth some effort to find a boat for you.
The broker is also interested in the next sale. They know that some day you will be selling the boat you are buying and they would like to sell it again. This is especially true for the buyer's broker who is more likely to be a broker closer to home.
Then get a broker! And a lawyer!Thx Greg.
My boat is $180,000, first big boat purchase, which explains why I am so careful about red flags, or I should say anything that moves and is red!
Greg
Hi,
On the boats I have purchased through a dealer, all of the contracts were basically the same. The basic premise is that the buyer can back out at any time for any reason and is entitled to having the deposit returned. If the buyer doesn't reject the boat before the closing date then the deposit is forfeited. This should never happen as all the buyer needs to do is call, email or send a letter to the broker stating "I reject the boat."
You are right to be cautious.
This is the brokerage who I bought my boat from:
www.bluenoseyachts.com
A large, well respected brokerage that has been in business for many years. To be truthful, I've dealt with better, more communicative, faster brokers. More important to me was that the broker (and brokerage) were honest and did everything they were supposed to do. It was much easier to deal with them, getting everything done electronically, than it was back in 2006 when I had to go to the brokerage, sign things, use paper checks, etc.
Barry
On the boats I have purchased through a dealer, all of the contracts were basically the same. The basic premise is that the buyer can back out at any time for any reason and is entitled to having the deposit returned. If the buyer doesn't reject the boat before the closing date then the deposit is forfeited. This should never happen as all the buyer needs to do is call, email or send a letter to the broker stating "I reject the boat."
You are right to be cautious.
This is the brokerage who I bought my boat from:
About Bluenose Yacht Sales
Bluenose Yacht Sales is about our shared passions for sailing and motor yachting. We're a premiere yacht seller and brokerage in Newport, RI.
www.bluenoseyachts.com
A large, well respected brokerage that has been in business for many years. To be truthful, I've dealt with better, more communicative, faster brokers. More important to me was that the broker (and brokerage) were honest and did everything they were supposed to do. It was much easier to deal with them, getting everything done electronically, than it was back in 2006 when I had to go to the brokerage, sign things, use paper checks, etc.
Barry
I think you need to find a surveyor who is local to you and your sailing area who can advise you as to the completeness of the documentation and soundness of the vessel for a fee. With that kind of money you're looking for a personally trusted professional rather than a salesman with a quota. They could be working in a respected brokerage themselves however you hire them as a surveyor they will be glad to explain the differences and limitations.