Broken Seacock Handle

[Ralph Johnstone]

So I was told all the thru hulls of this boat were replaced early last year.

That is quite likely. If you look towards the right hand rear of the valve (in your photo) it appears to be shiny brass. This also indicates that the cause of the visible corrosion is from a leak from above.

Why the ball chose to chose to freeze in place is anyone's guess.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Maybe the thru hull 'shrooms were replaced but the valves were not?

 

[jssailem]

First that "exploded view" is not for the valve you have there.

Here is the literature and view for the IBV valve.

Bronze Inline Valve| GROCO

GROCO Bronze Inline Valve offers reversible handle for flexible installation, ratchet attachment in handle, and bonding point.

www.groco.net

Your blue/green patina is from leaking hose not just general moist conditions in your bilge.

While you might be able to remove and reinstall the valve, you will be getting a rush of water that freaks out most boat owners. Sure you can stuff a rag in the hole, like they did on submarines or in war time boats, but do you really want to go through that trouble. What if that white sealant used on the valve is 5200, and when you try to turn the valve you also turn the thru hull breaking the seal between the thru hull and the fiberglass hull, worse what if the valve breaks off in your hand? Now your faced with an emergency in the water.

For a professional marine mechanic who has face these situations perhaps you can do it in the water. It is a real challenging issue for a DIY boat owner. If I was faced with the situation and not able to have the boat pulled from the water, I would careen the boat on a near by beach at high tide. Do the repair and look to float free and happy on the next high tide. Now days we have these magical lifts that will pull the boat in the evening. Let the boat hang in the slings. The boat owner jumps aboard does the repair. The caulk sets over night, and the boat is splashed first thing next morning.

Here is what it looks like when an inline valve comes apart in your hand as you try to remove it from the thru hull.

Note this valve was working. I just became uncomfortable with the unknown age and the rust on the handle.

 

[BigEasy]

That happened to me years ago on a Hunter 33.5. Bad thing was that the valve started leaking thru the broken handle / valve shaft. I jammed the shaft back into the valve and sealed it with plumber's epoxy to stop the leak. I plugged the thru hull fitting on the outside of the hull by hammering a tapered wooden plug into the thru hull; didn't leak a drop when I unscrewed the broken valve. Installed a new valve and removed the wood plug and was good to go. Obviously your current configuration is not a true seacock, but an inline ball valve threaded onto an elbow. You can always replace your current setup with a true seacock or adaptor plate on your next haul out, if desired. I really don't want to get into a thread drift about seacocks vs inline valves/thru hull fittings. It's obvious that a real seacock is the better configuration; however, the overwhelming majority of production boats simply use a thru hull fitting and ball valve. BTW, if you are going to forego installing a seacock and only use a thru hull and inline valve, Groco now manufactures thru hull fittings, inline valves, and tailpieces with BSPP threads so all of the components have like threads. This avoids mismatching of threads as when using components that have pipe threads and tapered threads.

 

[jssailem]

Groco now manufactures thru hull fittings, inline valves, and tailpieces with BSPP threads so all of the components have like threads. This avoids mismatching of threads as when using components that have pipe threads and tapered threads.

Reason 1 why I bought Groco. Reason 2 - Marelon was Not in Stock or might have gone Marelon

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

Does not look like anyone here suggested replacement seacock options. I would return that Groco one you already ordered ASAP.

The ONLY choice here is for Forespar Marelon.

As-designed, they withstand collision with a 500-lb weight sliding down the hull (actual test Forespar conducted). They install easily with 5200 (do NOT use anything else with it). They should use a sturdy backing plate, preferably out of fiberglass (see McMaster.com for available materials), also installed with 5200.

They can be through-bolted; but that is the triangle-based end-user version; and the OEM round-based version (which is the only one I use) is designed to not need the through-bolts.

As-designed, the seacock body will NOT break before the handle does, even if the owner/user has neglected to maintain the device regularly with Marelube.

The proprietary glass-impregnated nylon material will not corrode or oxidize in even the worst seawater conditions (that means inside or out). And the through-hulls can be painted with hull, bootstripe, or bottom paint (looks pretty trick actually).

AND, they do NOT have to be electrically bonded to anything. Therefore they won't conduct lightning (except possibly through the water in the hose, which is probably a long shot among long shots).

As a professional in this industry since 1972, I can see absolutely NO reason to have preferred bronze seacocks since RC Marine and Marelon came out with these in the late 1970s. (The only exception is for engine exhaust and possibly for engine-water intake; and I'm not so convinced they're not just fine for engine-water intake).

The best way to solve problems is to foresee and avoid them in the first instance.

Good luck!

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

They install easily with 5200 (do NOT use anything else with it).

And just where would the 5200 be applied on the valve ?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Groco now manufactures thru hull fittings, inline valves, and tailpieces with BSPP threads so all of the components have like threads.

Oh great, BSPP (British Standard Parallel Pipe) threads ! Been floating around for centuries in Jolly Olde England. NOT made for any kind of pressure service, mostly gravity drainage. And even at that, likely to leak at sometime during their life expectancy.

These are male and female threads which have parallel threads and do not jam together like an NPT (National Pipe Taper). From what I understand from a few Brits I've talked to in petroleum plants, they used to seal BSPP threads with a mixture of cement powder and asbestos fibres. They said it was the only thing guaranteed to keep them from leaking. Also guaranteed to never come apart.

Stick with NPT wherever possible. Or use matching male and female BSPP threads for some real excitement ................... and remember the mask for the asbestos .

 

[Ward H]

They install easily with 5200 (do NOT use anything else with it).

Why 5200 and not anything else?
From the installation instructions for Marelon "THRU-HULL/SEAVALVE INSTRUCTIONS":
"Bedding compounds such as 3M’s #5200, Sikaflex or Boatlife are to be recommended as well as others that are equally suitable."
and this:
"The surface of the female threaded round king-nut portion of the valve, which interfaces with the internal hull surface, may well be bedded also, but it is not an absolute requirement and the loading strength will not be impaired if it is not done." (bold type is mine)

 

[BigEasy]

And just where would the 5200 be applied on the valve ?

I have used 3M 4200 on mushroom thru hull fittings, externally and on the threads inside the boat that thread into the valve. Also use 4200 on the tailpiece from the valve. Been doing it that way for 25 years and have never had a leak.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

"Bedding compounds such as 3M’s #5200, Sikaflex or Boatlife are to be recommended"

Ah yes, bedding. But God help you if you ever want to change it.

3M’s #5200, Sikaflex or Boatlife are to be recommended as well as others that are equally suitable."

I don't think the author of the installations knows too much about sealants. 3M 5200 is NOTHING like Sikaflex and Boatlife as far as permanence goes. It's on there forever while the other two are relatively easy to remove.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Been doing it that way for 25 years and have never had a leak.

Of course it would never leak. Ever tried to get one of these threaded joints apart ? I imagine it wouldn't be too easy. How about cleaning the joint for re-use ? 3M 5200 however would be impossible to separate on anything much over 1" diameter.

Pipe joint compound isn't just any goop laying around which you happen to pick up. It must remain flexible for its intended life expectancy. It should be reasonably easy to separate an old threaded joint. The old sealant should not interfere with a new joint if it should remain in the threads.

 

[Ward H]

@Ralph Johnstone What underwater bedding compound do you suggest for installing thru hulls and sealing the thru hull to a seacock or other valve?
Are you saying 3M 4200 is also not appropriate? That is what @BigEasy said he used?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

@Ralph Johnstone What underwater bedding compound do you suggest for installing thru hulls and sealing the thru hull to a seacock or other valve?

I'm not looking at bedding compounds, which are a library unto itself, but only at pipe thread sealant.

What I have stated above are the properties of recognized pipe thread sealants which, when prostituting myself to the job, were frequently specified for threaded piping assembly in refineries and other industrial work.

My question is ................ "why use unrecognized materials for pipe sealant (3M 4200 or 5200) when so many recognized materials are available often at a lesser cost ?" Teflon tape, Permatex #2, Loctite Thread Sealant, including many others mixtures which fall under the label of pipe dope.

It just don't figure !

 

[BigEasy]

My question is ................ "why use unrecognized materials for pipe sealant (3M 4200 or 5200) when so many recognized materials are available often at a lesser cost ?"

I never use 5200 on thru hulls or valves and associated fittings....too much adhesion. Although many people use it, and that's OK if they want to deal with the hassle of removing by way of destruction. Instead I wrap the threads with Teflon tape and use 4200. Never leaks and allows disassembly if needed.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Instead I wrap the threads with Teflon tape and use 4200. Never leaks and allows disassembly if needed.

I agree. Not very conventional, but it's not going to leak and it will come apart with the tape in the mix.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

<--- started using 5200 in 1974 (same age as my boat), following industry standards. Have NEVER had a problem.

Sikaflex - excellent for acrylics. The city of Houston is held together with Sikaflex (see their literature). I don't like how one has to work with it (fairing, shaping, shifting part during installation, etc.) and so I no longer use it.​

​

LifeSeal is a silicone/polyurethane hybrid, excellent for Plexiglass and plastics. You will never paint near it again, however (same as silicone). Install only as the last step in building/restoring the boat.​

​

4200 is a weaker compound than 5200 meant for deck hardware which may be, at some point, removed. I classify 4200, 4000UV, 5200, 5200FC as essentially the same thing, because they are. For strength & durability I would use only actual 5200 under the waterline. Imagine if you were to hit something and it dislodged something you'd installed with something weaker. It could happen. 5200's not expensive enough to not just use the very best adhesive available.​

​

Thiakol is good for bedding bronze seacocks and metal parts to fiberglass or to wood. It seeps into wood pores and holds well; but it can fail especially in cold temperatures (Space Shuttle disaster). It's what was used for nearly everything before 5200 (wood/fiberglass-composite era). I've found that 5200 is so strong it should NOT be used with wood along the grain line (though it bonds really well) because it will flex less than the wood does in wide temperature changes (result: split planks). Thiakol gives more than the wood, but it continues to hold along the grain line. It is still used between planks on teak decks (such as on my bridge deck).​

​

I'm just advising what the boatbuilding industry historically (over a long period of time right up till today) does, not what boatyard 'experts' say from anecdotal evidence. I am, in fact, an expert. I share what I know because I care about people and about making their boats better.

Not sure if there are other lifelong professional boatbuilders or designers here. If so I'd be happy to hear from them!

 

[seadaddler]

Plug it from under in water if you can or get diver to help and change the whole value and make
sure you have right tools to keep thru hull from turning and usually not easy to change out depending how long
it is on boat but I see threads so I think it is doable if thru hull does not try to turn while removing.
Nick

 

[Mike Oldak]

My handle also broke on the inlet and I replaced both the inlet and outlet. I should have plugged the outlet since we sail only in a non discharge area and will never open the outlet

 

[jparrotta]

I had a similar problem with the same valve, in my case with an almost new valve, the driver failed and the handle would rotate without operating the valve. It looks like somebody made a mistake at Groco or a supplier and they used brass instead of bronze for some of them and obviously brass quickly corrodes in salt water.

Groco provided me a new valve and advised it is not serviceable but..... it is!

Hauling my boat would have costed a lot of money and inconvenience so I just ordered the same valve, and replaced the driver by doing the following

1)Unscrew the nut that holds the handle
2)Remove the second nut that holds the driver
3)Screw back the first nut to use it as a pry point
4) Pry out the driver while occasionally unscrewing it (the Teflon seal is the only thing holding it)
Then reinstall!
It has two Teflon seals and only the external one gets slightly damaged, but in my experience it worked when I reinstalled it, no leaks. Worst case you can find a matching o-ring or use some sealing tape around the seal. (Even without the second seal it would barely leak)

Best