The aft two pop-top support poles on my '83 C25 have come loose at the pop-top. The heads of three of the four screws have broke off (after years of sailing with the pop-top up), leaving the screws themselves solidly screwed into the pop-top. No "extractor" is going to remove these babies. I was able to remove the one that did not break. It is a #10/24, 1" long SS screw. What I want to do is install new screws just a little bit forward of the existing ones. I will drill a #25/3.8 mm pilot hole 1' deep, and then use a tap and die to rethread the metal (SS) plate which appears to be sandwiched under the fiberglass of the pop-top. Because the new support-bracket position is going to change, I will have to redrill a new 5/16" hole just below the existing hole at the top of each support pole, and then cut off about 1/2" of the top of each pole --so it still clears the bracket when the top is going up or coming down. I want to do this only on the aft two support poles, as the forward ones appear to be in good shape. I'm thinking that this will leave the whole pop-top sloped just a bit aft, but that the pop-top "lock" on the mast will still work. My questions are: Is this the best way to fix this problem? Is there a better (easier), way? What if anything do I put on the new screws before I screw them in?
Broken Pop-Top /
- Thread starter Cat 25
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Lift kit not an option
No. I contacted Cat Direct, and they told me that the lift kit is no substitute for the support poles.
No. I contacted Cat Direct, and they told me that the lift kit is no substitute for the support poles.
Drill them out
Sorry about the poptop lift kit. Why don't you drill out the old bolts? Use a drill bit with a smaller diameter than the bolt. Then you can replace with new bolts in the standard location. Once you drill out the middle of the old bolt (which can't be too long) the bolt will come apart and should be removable. I've done this with bolts and once your bit gets a grip it isn't all that hard. You can start with a narrow bit and then re-drill with wider ones.
Sorry about the poptop lift kit. Why don't you drill out the old bolts? Use a drill bit with a smaller diameter than the bolt. Then you can replace with new bolts in the standard location. Once you drill out the middle of the old bolt (which can't be too long) the bolt will come apart and should be removable. I've done this with bolts and once your bit gets a grip it isn't all that hard. You can start with a narrow bit and then re-drill with wider ones.
Drilling out #10 screws
Randy, These are #10 SS screws so they are not very large in diameter --.19" to be exact. I'm afraid that if I start drilling on them I am going to damage the original thread on the pop top. Then I'd have to rethread them larger, which will require me to re-drill all of the holes on the brackets, get larger screws, etc. Dante
Randy, These are #10 SS screws so they are not very large in diameter --.19" to be exact. I'm afraid that if I start drilling on them I am going to damage the original thread on the pop top. Then I'd have to rethread them larger, which will require me to re-drill all of the holes on the brackets, get larger screws, etc. Dante
Understood
But in some ways drilling out a small bolt is easier than a larger one. Even if it doesn't work and you have to do the re-tap etc it really isn't much much more work than the original plan. Heck, if it doesn't work just go to the original plan! The other advantage is by sticking to the the stock configuration you know that you wont be putting any gear in the way of a future installation of a poptop lift kit. Oh well, it is your boat. Best of luck in whatever choice you make. Post the results
But in some ways drilling out a small bolt is easier than a larger one. Even if it doesn't work and you have to do the re-tap etc it really isn't much much more work than the original plan. Heck, if it doesn't work just go to the original plan! The other advantage is by sticking to the the stock configuration you know that you wont be putting any gear in the way of a future installation of a poptop lift kit. Oh well, it is your boat. Best of luck in whatever choice you make. Post the results
Drilling out #10 screw
Small screws are more tedious. On something that I don't want to chance messing up I always buy a new drill bit that I know is sharp (in this case a cobalt drill for stainless because of the hardness) so that I know every revolution is cutting well. I drill with the drill at a very low speed taking care to keep as centered as possible all the way through. I use easy outs but you have to be very careful not to break that. Many times after the drill just breaks through if you reverse the drill you can back the screw right out with the drill. If no luck with an easy out then I drill through with tap drill size and just retap it if the threads haven't came out yet. Then if that still doesn't work, or I've messed the threads up, I drill and tap it for a HeliCoil insert which is another somewhat tedious job if you've never done one. Several thoughts here, hope one works for ya! Good Luck! Jon
Small screws are more tedious. On something that I don't want to chance messing up I always buy a new drill bit that I know is sharp (in this case a cobalt drill for stainless because of the hardness) so that I know every revolution is cutting well. I drill with the drill at a very low speed taking care to keep as centered as possible all the way through. I use easy outs but you have to be very careful not to break that. Many times after the drill just breaks through if you reverse the drill you can back the screw right out with the drill. If no luck with an easy out then I drill through with tap drill size and just retap it if the threads haven't came out yet. Then if that still doesn't work, or I've messed the threads up, I drill and tap it for a HeliCoil insert which is another somewhat tedious job if you've never done one. Several thoughts here, hope one works for ya! Good Luck! Jon
oops!
On Sunday I cut the aft two support poles down 1/4", and drilled new pilot holes for the support pole brackets. But there was no SS under the fiberglass where the support pole brackets are now going to be --which is only 3/4" or so forward of their old location. It is just wood. This leads me to believe that there is not a plate of metal under the fiberglass, but only an embedded nut --and it's not where I need it. So now I'm really screwed. Any ideas, anyone?
On Sunday I cut the aft two support poles down 1/4", and drilled new pilot holes for the support pole brackets. But there was no SS under the fiberglass where the support pole brackets are now going to be --which is only 3/4" or so forward of their old location. It is just wood. This leads me to believe that there is not a plate of metal under the fiberglass, but only an embedded nut --and it's not where I need it. So now I'm really screwed. Any ideas, anyone?
Maybe
there is not even an embedded nut. Maybe it is just epoxy or something. I think I would drill out holes in the cabin top oversized. Then fill the holes with epoxy. Then tap and thread the epoxy and put your new bolts in. After all gravity is on your side with this, the top isn't going to fly up. Worse case this doesn't work and you order new support poles and drill out the old bolts like we told you. ;-)
there is not even an embedded nut. Maybe it is just epoxy or something. I think I would drill out holes in the cabin top oversized. Then fill the holes with epoxy. Then tap and thread the epoxy and put your new bolts in. After all gravity is on your side with this, the top isn't going to fly up. Worse case this doesn't work and you order new support poles and drill out the old bolts like we told you. ;-)
No nut, no metal?
Randy, Do you know that for a fact --that there is no embedded nut or metal in there at all? I would really be surprised if this was the case. I went to page 36 of the pre-1988 Catalina parts catalog but there is no mention of what if anything is embedded in the pop top. I like your epoxy idea though. But I would want to epoxy the nuts in there --not thread the epoxy. How would I position and then hold these nuts in place while I epoxy? And this would have to be pretty exact. I've never used epoxy. Dante
Randy, Do you know that for a fact --that there is no embedded nut or metal in there at all? I would really be surprised if this was the case. I went to page 36 of the pre-1988 Catalina parts catalog but there is no mention of what if anything is embedded in the pop top. I like your epoxy idea though. But I would want to epoxy the nuts in there --not thread the epoxy. How would I position and then hold these nuts in place while I epoxy? And this would have to be pretty exact. I've never used epoxy. Dante
Helicoil!
Jon, What's an "easy out"? Is this the reverse-drilling process that you previously described, or is this a tool? And if it's the drilling process what size of drill bit would I use for a #10 screw/bolt? And, what's a "helicoil" --and can I install or embed one of these in wood? Dante
Jon, What's an "easy out"? Is this the reverse-drilling process that you previously described, or is this a tool? And if it's the drilling process what size of drill bit would I use for a #10 screw/bolt? And, what's a "helicoil" --and can I install or embed one of these in wood? Dante
Dante
How about removing a bolt from one of the other supports, shine a flashlight at the hole and see what is in there? Epoxy is really tough stuff and I think a threaded epoxy fill would do the job. By epoxy I mean something simple like Marine-tex. I use it often for repairs. Mix it, push it into the holes, push the poles in place and set the bolts in, keep it all braced overnight. I think that would do it for you.
How about removing a bolt from one of the other supports, shine a flashlight at the hole and see what is in there? Epoxy is really tough stuff and I think a threaded epoxy fill would do the job. By epoxy I mean something simple like Marine-tex. I use it often for repairs. Mix it, push it into the holes, push the poles in place and set the bolts in, keep it all braced overnight. I think that would do it for you.
HeliCoil
An easy out is a hardened tool with reverse shallow flutes that you put in a hole in a broken screw to remove a broken screw/bolt. It's harder than a bolt so you tap it into the hole just to get a bite then turn it counterclockwise to back the remaining part of the screw out. With the small sizes, they can easily be broken off in the screw remnent then your problem is even greater because the drilling option is gone. A HeliCoil is an insert that is used when you have stripped out threads. You drill the remaining threads with the HeliCoil tap drill first, then you tap for the insert, then screw the insert into the new hole using the tool supplied, break the insertion tang off then assemble your new screw into the insert. Each size comes as a kit with the tap drill, a few helicoils and the insertion tool. The inserts are stainless steel by the way. As they are not a solid insert (more like a small coil spring), I can't emagine bedding them into wood. Jon C22 Happy Daze
An easy out is a hardened tool with reverse shallow flutes that you put in a hole in a broken screw to remove a broken screw/bolt. It's harder than a bolt so you tap it into the hole just to get a bite then turn it counterclockwise to back the remaining part of the screw out. With the small sizes, they can easily be broken off in the screw remnent then your problem is even greater because the drilling option is gone. A HeliCoil is an insert that is used when you have stripped out threads. You drill the remaining threads with the HeliCoil tap drill first, then you tap for the insert, then screw the insert into the new hole using the tool supplied, break the insertion tang off then assemble your new screw into the insert. Each size comes as a kit with the tap drill, a few helicoils and the insertion tool. The inserts are stainless steel by the way. As they are not a solid insert (more like a small coil spring), I can't emagine bedding them into wood. Jon C22 Happy Daze
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