I just got my first sailboat and it is a little of a fixer upper. There are a few things that need some TLC. But the bow is the biggest issue. If anybody has seen this or has suggestions I am all ears.
Bow Damage
- Thread starter 23ODay
- Start date
Aye, caramba! That's some serious delamination and core damage right there. It'll buff right out...
From what I can see in the picture, the underside of the deck might be intact. If so, the repair would be to cut all that out of the top, lay in new coring with epoxy, and build up new glass layers on the top. I expect the repair would have to go further aft than the obvious delaminated sections, as water has likely flowed back into the core and saturated it.
If there is any other evidence of impact damage in the hull or the layer of glass underneath, more extensive repairs would be required.
It's not a trivial job to repair, but a determined person could do it themselves.
From what I can see in the picture, the underside of the deck might be intact. If so, the repair would be to cut all that out of the top, lay in new coring with epoxy, and build up new glass layers on the top. I expect the repair would have to go further aft than the obvious delaminated sections, as water has likely flowed back into the core and saturated it.
If there is any other evidence of impact damage in the hull or the layer of glass underneath, more extensive repairs would be required.
It's not a trivial job to repair, but a determined person could do it themselves.
That makes sense I will give it a go. Any recommendations on what brands to use for the core, epoxy, and glass?
Thats not a delamination, thats a major structural crack cause by the bow pulpit being pushed back and upwards with huge force. You can see where the forward pulpit posts have been pulled clear after the deck cracked. Something hit that boat VERY hard.
Along with fixing the (very) damaged area, you will need to look at the hull/deck joint in that area to see if the stress damaged that as well.
West Systems epoxy will be your best friend.
Along with fixing the (very) damaged area, you will need to look at the hull/deck joint in that area to see if the stress damaged that as well.
West Systems epoxy will be your best friend.
What Jack said. Been there done that. If you are really determined start by assessing the extent of the damage. That boat had a bigger wallop than mine. West Systems and biaxials will yield a nice repair. Wanna peek at what you are in for? http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123244 That was a huge hit to do that much damage.
I was thinking that it had to have been hit. I have inspected the hull and surrounding areas and they are untouched. It looks like the pulpit took the brunt of the collision. Thanks for the product recommendation jackdaw. I will also read through your thread 25years later. I will post pics as it comes along. Thanks
Do yourself a favor and use polyester resins. Its what the boat is made of. Far easier to use over head, and control cure times. Also, a laminating resin means no sanding between lay ups. Really important for the home repairer. The strength gained with epoxy is marginal for the home doer, as you've got to lay up a certain thickness anyway. And the finishing "Gel coat" is easier and attractive. You can get various grades of polyester, Vinylester being the strongest, and still cheaper than epoxy. Recommend LBI - www.lbifiberglass.com.
I was under the impression that polyester resins don't adhere as well to existing surfaces, and that epoxy was recommended because it is also an adhesive. Can you elaborate on that, Golden Road? I agree that the set up of polyesters can be so much quicker and more convenient than epoxy….
Let's cover some facts about epoxy vs. polyester. First we must understand the difference between bonds. Polyester forms good primary bonds but poor secondary bonds. Primary bonds are formed by the interlocking of the polymer chains. Epoxy forms excellent primary and very good secondary bonds. Secondary bonds occur through adhesion or their ability to grip the surrounding laminate. Epoxy yields 30% greater strength than polyester. When coupled with the use of biaxial the laminate is at least 60% stronger than the original laminate. All new high end boats are using epoxy and biaxial or carbon fiber laminates. I went through all of this with West Systems prior to starting my project. The giant wind turbine blades are being made using this exact combination of epoxy and biaxials. Also contrary to popular folklore polyester gelcoat bonds to epoxy as well as polyester and again West Systems went to great lengths to test the adhesion with no ill outcome.
Lots of good info. I think LBI sounds like the route I am going to take. Now if I could just get one of the cleats off. I also have one of the pulpit screws that is stripped and I cant get it out. Are there any techniques for this either well known or not.
Finished polyester has wax in it. You must sand thoroughly, no matter what you use. In this job you will be deep taper sanding. No matter what tests show, if you attempt to rip apart a good polyester repair, you'll rip apart the original laminate. The job is only as strong as that. If you are concerned, use the pricier vinylester polyester resin. Like I said, you have to match laminate thickness anyway. Obviously, epoxy is better around wood and high tech jobs. An O'Day is hardly that. BTW, LBI has all the stuff for Hi tech too (epoxy, carbon fiber sheets, etc, etc.
25 years--You have gotten me thinking again- always dangerous...your comment that poly gelcoat bonds to epoxy I have difficulty with - I gelcoated my rudder handle after some epoxy repairs around the thru holes, and the gelcoat never dried..was always "smelling" and sticky even after a month on the water. I just let it go, and it dried on the surface, but was still soft underneath where against the epoxy upon pullout 6 months later.
I'm going to hit West systems, per your research...
I'm going to hit West systems, per your research...
The gelcoat you used probably didn't have the wax added. Another possibility is that it was an older batch. I once used gelcoat with wax in, it had been in my garage for a year and it never really dried when used.
Ritdog, I also use Duratec High Gloss Additive when doing gelcoat work. This allows even thin coat repairs that cure without all the wax and polyvinyl alcohol. For spraying Duratec thinner works with the mix at 10% or less. http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/Uploads/Ew22Polyester.pdf Here is the link with the data for finishing with gelcoat after repairs made with epoxy. They work well as I am on year two with YOT and no problems despite subzero temperatures all the way to 100 degrees or better in the sun. Sorry for the delayed response by the way.
I agree with golden road there is NO reason to use epoxy. No professional I no of would make this repair with epoxy. The statement that epoxy bonds better to poly is nonsense. Epoxy does have a better elongation but that really translates into it is softer and more flexible. Good preparation is important for a good bond no matter the resin. WEST has done a great PR job with amateurs but the truth is it is not that much better and has bad UV resistance. As a surveyor I see many more failed epoxy repairs than poly. I say fix it with the same stuff the boat is made of. Would you repair a aluminum boat with steel just because it is stronger? It is much harder to get good results with epoxy.
I beg to differ with you Sailvayu but you are incorrect in your assessment of epoxy for the following reasons. One, poly or vinyl ester lack adhesive characteristics necessary to bond due to the long chain molecules that make up their chemistry. Two, epoxy being a smaller molecule exhibits superior bonding in secondary bonds due to its' ability to 'key' into the damaged long chain molecule that is provided by proper surface preparation. A full understanding of polymer chemistry and long chain molecules versus amine molecules would contradict your statement. Epoxy adhesion tests by Gougeon Brothers provide the data for informed individuals. Other epoxies may work as well but West has repeatedly demonstrated the superiority of epoxy for secondary bonding techniques. Without intertwined molecules poly and vinyl are analogous with Elmer's as opposed to a cyanacrylic glue. Any failure you may have observed is more likely the result of poor workmanship and not product failure. In fact when I tabbed in my bulkheads with an improper plywood I was able to tear the old tabbing from the hull which were bonded using polyester post formed of the hull.
hello all
I had to learn to do some fiberglass repairs to my boat.... I found this guy on youtube who has loads of glassing lessons for many different situations.... go to you tube and type in "there is a hole in the boat".... he goes step by step and each video is only 5 to 15 minutes long...
check it out
sincerely
Jess
I had to learn to do some fiberglass repairs to my boat.... I found this guy on youtube who has loads of glassing lessons for many different situations.... go to you tube and type in "there is a hole in the boat".... he goes step by step and each video is only 5 to 15 minutes long...
check it out
sincerely
Jess
There is no chemical bonding between a cured product and a dissimilar product and your comparison between elmers and super glue makes no sense. Keep drinking the WEST koolaid. They write the information while selling you their expensive product. I would be more likely to believe information not published by the people selling the product. If you are getting good results with using the more expensive and difficult to use product then go for it, for others I will still recommend what I have found works best after 40 years of working with this stuff professionally. Polyester simply is easier to use, produces better results with less technical experience and is the same stuff the boat is built from to me that makes sense. Oh and do not get me wrong WEST is a great product for what is was designed for, Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique =WEST meaning it was developed for wood not fiberglass.