Bounty - This Changes Everything

[Roger Long]

This Youtube video is chilling. Listen carefully starting about 10 minutes into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BNDneMuO7-U

The captain talks about chasing hurricanes and trying to get as close to the eye as possible. He says you get a pretty good ride. "There is no such thing as bad weather". He talks about being in 70 foot seas and being very comfortable. I'm sorry, he wasn't unless someone can show me some buoy wave height reports tied to his position.

Based on the captain's own words and attitude towards weather as demonstrated in this video, I can only conclude that he saw this storm not as a danger to be avoided but as an opportunity. His decisions on this last voyage are no longer incomprehensible to me. The fact that he was allowed to remain in command of this ship and entrusted with the lives of people like Claudene Christian is.

 

[kappykaplan]

Holy crap! No respect for the forces of nature.

 

[Jimm]

This Youtube video is chilling. Listen carefully starting about 10 minutes into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BNDneMuO7-U

The captain talks about chasing hurricanes and trying to get as close to the eye as possible. He says you get a pretty good ride. "There is no such thing as bad weather". .... The fact that he was allowed to remain in command of this ship and entrusted with the lives of people like Claudene Christian is.

And the owners let him sail...........arrogance all around at its worst.

 

[Scott B]

Coast Guard to conduct investigation into HMS Bounty sinking

PORTSMOUTH, Va. - Rear Adm. Steven Ratti, the Coast Guard 5th District commander, ordered a district formal investigation Thursday to determine the cause of the sinking of the Tall Ship Bounty, a three-masted sailing ship, 90 miles southeast of Hatteras, N.C., Monday, which resulted in the death of one crewmember, and one crewmember who remains missing.
A district formal investigation consists of a Coast Guard investigating officer who will receive evidence and testimony using formal rules and procedures and is convened when the information to be derived has considerable regional significance, or may indicate vessel class problems or areas of technical importance.
The district formal investigation will probe every aspect of the accident and will determine as closely as possible:

1. the cause of the accident;
2. whether there is evidence that any failure of material or equipment was involved or contributed to the casualty;
3. whether there is evidence that any act of misconduct, inattention to duty, negligence, or willful violation of the law on the part of any licensed or certificated person contributed to the casualty;
4. whether there is evidence that any Coast Guard or other government agency personnel caused or contributed to the casualty; and
5. whether the accident should be further investigated by a Marine Board of Investigation.

The Investigating Officer, Cmdr. Kevin M. Carroll, is the chief of the Coast Guard 5th District Marine Inspections and Investigations Branch and will be assisted by investigating officers from Coast Guard Sector North Carolina in Wilmington, N.C.
Coast Guard investigations of marine casualties and accidents are for the purpose of taking appropriate measures for promoting safety of life and property and are not intended to fix civil or criminal responsibility.
A district formal investigation often takes several months to properly complete

 

[jeb21851]

incompetence that kills

having been a deck officer in the Merchant Marines for 10 years serving on big ships that were occassionally caught in hurricanes/typhoons I can only say that the Captain of the Bounty displayed extreme incompetence in going to sea with an approaching hurricane....his comment that it is better to ride them out at sea is true for ships most of the time but not for wooden sailing vessels of that size!!!! His actions caused the loss of the ship and a crew member as well as his own life. Sad situation.

 

[anchorclanker]

Its really pretty sad all around. I was looking at some of the pictures of her restoration, lots of rot. I noted the side frames, which I assume run all the way to the keel, were rotted above deck, trimmed off, and sister joists tied into them. It made me question what condition the framing below was in. When you read comments by some crew that Bounty was needing continual pumping sitting at the dock, while other expatriated crew have said the pumps were continually failing or plugging. Ive read of some wood ships that barely needed any pumping, so it would appear Bounty clearly had some potential structural weaknesses.

Further, other comments allude that while she was built in the "traditional" method, because she was a movie prop a lot of corners were cut during construction to keep her costs down. Others comment the timber used to build her was not the quality that existed 200 years ago.

While each of these comments taken seperately could be meaningless, a little truth is probably existent in all of them. Bounty was an old ship. She was classified as an "attraction". She was crewed by many "dreamers", or as one so elequently put it, "Nautical Thespians", people of all ages who believed they were reliving the days of old, and dressed and acted the part. Thats not to say many of them werent competent sailors, but that many of them kept raising the bar to these tall ships capabilities, while the ship slowly deteriorated beneath their feet.

Did the Captain become complacent to the ships strengths and weaknesses? Was he out to try and prove himself or the ship, that they could in fact take on the worst God could throw at them, and still get through? Did he convince his "crew" to believe in the ship as he believed, telling tall tales? Had he made it he would have been elevated along with Bounty to a very high status. Oh its just a wimpy Hurricane, and those outer banks well, we'll show them?

It has been said the coordinates where she foundered are some 12,000 feet deep. Unless she is floating near the surface and can be recovered, the only images of her were likely to ever see will come from a remote DSV camera.

As shock turned into anger, anger has given into solace. Perhaps it is for the best. Perhaps the whole Tall Ship Industry needed to be turned on its head for its complacency. For its treatment and lack of quality training of crew. The Mutiny on the Bounty led to changes in how ships captains were to treat crew. Perhaps in some odd twist, the death of his decendent, aboard a cheap copy of his Bounty, can do the same for the small Navy that gave it life.

 

[Scurvy]

The ultimate price for hubris. I am sorry lives and a fine sailing vessel were lost in this terrible miscalculation.

 

[Buck420]

RE.. Bounty

Well said Anchorclanker ...

The captain's own words make it no longer "inexplicable" that he took the ship out to sea as/when he did.

As Dunlookin said ...
There are old pilots.
There are bold pilots.
There are no OLD, BOLD pilots.

Very sad

 

[Nodak7]

Anchor the one comment that he made which supports all that you have said was that she was built as a movie prop and was meant "to be burned at the end of the movie". She was saved but put into the hands of a not so capable captain! RIP Bounty!

 

[woodster]

after watching that youtube video what sticks in my mind is that he forgot that he needed to be following the storm and not headed out trying to dodge or beat it ...we know the rest of the story......sorry for the loss.....RIP Bounty and lost crew members...

regards

woody

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Carrot for Roger

Carrot for Roger

Ed K

 

[Maine Sail]

Back in 2001 or 2002 I walked around the HMS Bounty on the railway as she was being re-planked below the waterline.

I thought I took some pics but can't find them so it may have been before I had a digital camera. I remember being struck by what they were re-fastening the new oak planks to. Some ribs had been replaced but they appeared awfully small for a boat of that size though they were backed by rusty metal in some spots. Other ribs that had not been replaced seemed like there was not a lot there to bite a screw into. Soooooo much of this boat was sooo badly rotted I would not have felt comfortable crossing a bay in her.

I grew up sailing on a 52' Bud Macintosh designed wooden schooner that seemed quite a bit more heavily built on a scale for scale basis than the HMS Bounty and I sailed in rough weather on Pices many times and even that boat leaked after a couple days of rough weather..

Back then 2001-2002 I had no idea this boat even really headed out into blue water but I can safely say, having seen what I saw, that IMHO this boat was unfit for even small seas let alone a hurricane. I also saw her on her second re-fit a Boothbay Shipyard and she looked worse the second time I saw her..

Based on the captains comments I would guess this vessel has been pressed beyond her comfort limits before and finally could not take the abuse any longer. I have a tough time believing that when they laid this boat up for the movie set they intended for her to be "chasing hurricanes" in "70 foot seas"....

Sad really....

 

[cajon409]

I am not here to tell people there business, or start a argument, I rarely post things. But I feel like I need to put my 2 cents in. First I sailed for years over 28 years ago and now, started sailing for just about a year,so by no means am even experience as any of the other members of this forum or do I claim to be. Heck I see little one's in the harbor when we are leaving doing a lot better than I. But one thing I do have is over 60 years of life experience. It is easy to judge someone else, to say this or that, I did not know the captian of the Bounty but from what have read is that there is a chance that he could have made some life changing choices. But who hasn't. Hindsight is always 20/20, it is easy to blame when you are a fair weather sailor. My father whom started sailing on ships in 1913,sailboats as well and ocean tankers, he was on several ships that was lost in ww2, spent 7 days waiting to be rescued while floating in water not a lifeboat, watching is shipmates die. Was on 2 tankers that exploded and had to swim underwater till as he said his lungs felt like they wanted to explode. Not once did I ever hear him said if the captian would have done this or that,he would just say thank you Lord for giving me one more chance to see your beautiful oceans again and a chance to sail again. Again I will not argue a point these are just my feelings. But please remember mates
when was the last time that you have decided to out run that small gale in a bay,or just to
many people on board, or just to many drinks before you left port, are just left safe harbor when every one was coming in and you laughed. It is only by the grace of God that someone is not judging you, or that it is not your time yet. I do hope I did not tick any one off.My prayers go out to the ones who lost love one's, the members of the Coast Guard that saved the crew, and to ya'll that tomorrow, you will have safe voyage, and that the mistakes we will make is not judge so harshly. God Bless.

 

[gettinthere]

As with most things hollywood, it was a flimsy prop

 

[anchorclanker]

I am not here to tell people there business, or start a argument, I rarely post things.

I think were talking about very different things. Your Dad, my Dad, other peoples Dads, and all of us ourselves have all made mistakes. The situations you tell about your Dad, they all encompassed quick decisions. And where we and our parents made most of our mistakes were also from quick decisions. When we make mistakes, its often because we simply didnt have a lot of time to think it out very well. This situation is totally different.

Who in the world, would purposely and intentionally, plot a course directly toward a giant approaching Hurricane, 4 days in advance? No one of sound mind would.

Somewhere, either just before departing or turning south, Claudene phoned home to tell her Mother she loved her, "just in case I dont come back". We will likely never know what troubled her so, but it would appear she was fearful she would never see shore again. Sadly, her fears were well founded.

I can only pray that the last 24 hours of hell that ship endured wasnt as terrifying and horrific as I think it was. That it did not need to be there in the first place, is why many of us are angry with Captain Crazy.

 

[anchorclanker]

As with most things hollywood, it was a flimsy prop

She couldnt have been too flimsy to last 2 to 5 times longer than almost any wood ships from the age of sail. In fact, that she made it as far as she did through that storm, considering her age, says a lot as to just how tough she really was. Much younger and much stronger wood ships didnt fare much better over that graveyard in those days.

I think she did alright, even considering the man put in her care. She put up a damned good fight and waited tell her crew was safe before succumbing herself to the depths. She was a lady to the end.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Bounty, mistakes & tomorrow

She couldn't have been too flimsy to last 2 to 5 times longer than almost any wood ships from the age of sail. In fact, that she made it as far as she did through that storm, considering her age, says a lot as to just how tough she really was. Much younger and much stronger wood ships didn't fare much better over that graveyard in those days.

I think she did alright, even considering the man put in her care. She put up a damned good fight and waited tell her crew was safe before succumbing herself to the depths. She was a lady to the end.

------------------- // -------------------------

Mistakes were made. The Youtube illustrates
that. Roger may want to comment on the
ship and the comments made about sea
worthiness, however,

The weather has improved. The forecast is
good sailing weather for snowbirds.

Here is a quote from one of the threads
that speaks to the issue:
"Good judgment is the result of experience
and experience is the result of bad judgment.
Canoez

Unfortunately this mistake caused loss of life.

I would point out that Roger has demonstrated
many things we need to put into our experience
check list on his previous journey.

It is time for class to begin again.

Of course many have noticed that Roger is as
steadfast as the captain of the bounty was.
So our request for a trip thru the Dismal Canal,
Stops at Edenton, NC and coastal boat museum
in Beafort fall on deaf ears.

As the Youtube demonstated the thinking of
the captain of the Bounty, I received a Url of
an educational nature put out by New England
Ropes. This Youtube made me think of a certain
Captain's raising an anchor just by straight
lifting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqIhtTt9KCw&feature=autoplay&list=UUykzFXg57MtxPnVcdThNMow&playnext=1

Now some of us have windlasses. However, keeping
this video in mind is a good reminder when I drop
a lunch hook off the stern.

This Youtube might be a good review for other sailors.

Ed K

 

[sea_casper]

As with most things hollywood, it was a flimsy prop

The first instance of a ship being constructed from its original plans specifically for the purposes of being used in a film.

The reconstruction was built in Lundenberg, Nova Scotia where it was the first 3-masted sailing vessel to be launched since the 1880s.


400,000 feet of lumber were used, 10,000 square yards of canvas were sewn by hand and 10 miles of rope were rigged for the reconstructed version of HMS The Bounty.



Once built, the reconstructed Bounty then sailed the 7000 miles from Nova Scotia to Tahiti.

I don't believe it was built too flimsily, since the plan was to sail it to Tahiti.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Bounty on TV again

Comment from DC/NOVA area:

To All who sent comments on the HMS Bounty sinking.

On Wednesday evenings, from 8
to 10 pm, the Weather Channel
shows movies of the daily
rescue actinvies of the Coast
Guard stations in Florida or Alaska,
unless there is a big weather event
like Sandy going on.

Tonight they announced that on Wednesday, December 5, at
8 PM they will be showing the
Official C.G. film of the HMS
Bounty Rescue. You might
like to see it!

This Youtube video is chilling. Listen carefully starting about 10 minutes into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BNDneMuO7-U

The captain talks about chasing hurricanes and trying to get as close to the eye as possible. He says you get a pretty good ride. "There is no such thing as bad weather". He talks about being in 70 foot seas and being very comfortable. I'm sorry, he wasn't unless someone can show me some buoy wave height reports tied to his position.

Based on the captain's own words and attitude towards weather as demonstrated in this video, I can only conclude that he saw this storm not as a danger to be avoided but as an opportunity. His decisions on this last voyage are no longer incomprehensible to me. The fact that he was allowed to remain in command of this ship and entrusted with the lives of people like Claudene Christian is.