I have a major problem on my hands, or maybe I'm just over-reacting...I am a new owner to an old boat - a '72 Irwin 28' - and I just had a bottom job put on her in March '05. I went out on her for the 4th of July and discovered that the nice new blue paint is flaking off under the water line in large areas all over the boat. I define "large areas" as those that were larger than my foot and fin, and "several" as more than 15 seperate areas. I talked with the guy that did the work and he said that it was just where his guys hadn't washed the hull with acetone before applying the coating and he could pull it out in a month or so and spot repair it. I told him that there are a lot of areas, but he said he would have to judge that for himself - did I mention that I'm a woman? - but it would be a few weeks before he could get around to it. My question: Can it wait that long? I'm seeing fiberglass matting through the holes where the coating was sanded away, and when I touched the surface with my hand, large chucks of the paint came off. By leaving it in the water, am I going to have bigger problems?
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Sounds Like
Sounds like this guy is getting ready to bend you over a barrell. If you can see the fiberglass under the gel coat, I would think it needs to be looked at pretty damn quick. Kind of sounds like they went through the gel coat when sanding, or someone else did. If it were me, I would insist they pull the boat NOW, and find out what is going on. Just my measly .02 worth
Sounds like this guy is getting ready to bend you over a barrell. If you can see the fiberglass under the gel coat, I would think it needs to be looked at pretty damn quick. Kind of sounds like they went through the gel coat when sanding, or someone else did. If it were me, I would insist they pull the boat NOW, and find out what is going on. Just my measly .02 worth
What was done?
What exactly did you contract to be done? Was it just sanding and anti-fouling or was it supposed to be more such as osmosis treatment, application of a barrier coat etc. In any event you should not be able to see glass matting. If you can see matting there is no gelcoat remaining nor is there a barrier coat. Not a desirable situation. I would be inclined to press the issue. A few weeks might not be critical but by the sounds of it, you are just being stalled. I definitely don't think you're over-reacting.
What exactly did you contract to be done? Was it just sanding and anti-fouling or was it supposed to be more such as osmosis treatment, application of a barrier coat etc. In any event you should not be able to see glass matting. If you can see matting there is no gelcoat remaining nor is there a barrier coat. Not a desirable situation. I would be inclined to press the issue. A few weeks might not be critical but by the sounds of it, you are just being stalled. I definitely don't think you're over-reacting.
What was done
I wish I knew more about boats, but that's why I hired someone to do the work for me. What I know is that there were some blisters forming between the outer coating of "paint" and the gel coat. They sanded the outer coat off and put new on - I don't know what it was called. There were a few spots where they sanded down into the gel to the glass to get at a few blisters that were more than skin deep. What I'm seeing is big flaking areas with sanded gel underneath, and some big blisters that feel like they're under some sort of flexible tar-like substance. The paint is also wrinkled up around some of these areas. I'm at a loss of what to do - I paid this guy a lot of money that I didn't have to spare and I'm concerned that if I push him, he'll tell me to take it up in court. But, I'm also concerned that if I wait 'till he's ready to do something, my boat will be ruined. AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!! Jennifer
I wish I knew more about boats, but that's why I hired someone to do the work for me. What I know is that there were some blisters forming between the outer coating of "paint" and the gel coat. They sanded the outer coat off and put new on - I don't know what it was called. There were a few spots where they sanded down into the gel to the glass to get at a few blisters that were more than skin deep. What I'm seeing is big flaking areas with sanded gel underneath, and some big blisters that feel like they're under some sort of flexible tar-like substance. The paint is also wrinkled up around some of these areas. I'm at a loss of what to do - I paid this guy a lot of money that I didn't have to spare and I'm concerned that if I push him, he'll tell me to take it up in court. But, I'm also concerned that if I wait 'till he's ready to do something, my boat will be ruined. AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!! Jennifer
Sorry to say this
but it sounds as if you didn't get a very good job. Epoxy tar ( from your description ) is not the recommended fix for blisters. I've attached a link that might help you understand the blister problem. Your boat won't be "ruined" but you'll need a proper job done.
but it sounds as if you didn't get a very good job. Epoxy tar ( from your description ) is not the recommended fix for blisters. I've attached a link that might help you understand the blister problem. Your boat won't be "ruined" but you'll need a proper job done.
Not overreacting
I think I'd be getting more than a little cranked up. "His guys" did it wrong. Did you have a contract? What was the agreement? Did the person doing the work make recommendations? Tell us what supposedly was used/done. I agree with Nice N Easy ... I'd get the boat out now. The longer it's in, the more water penetration you're going to have with the gelcoat gone. And I'd force the issue on "when." You're losing valuable sailing time. BTW, go to the Interlux web site, where you'll find all kinds of info on what should be done to your hull. Then you can be knowledgable when you talk with him, and cite Interlux as the expert source. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
I think I'd be getting more than a little cranked up. "His guys" did it wrong. Did you have a contract? What was the agreement? Did the person doing the work make recommendations? Tell us what supposedly was used/done. I agree with Nice N Easy ... I'd get the boat out now. The longer it's in, the more water penetration you're going to have with the gelcoat gone. And I'd force the issue on "when." You're losing valuable sailing time. BTW, go to the Interlux web site, where you'll find all kinds of info on what should be done to your hull. Then you can be knowledgable when you talk with him, and cite Interlux as the expert source. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
If you can see matting...
The boat needs to come out of the water ASAP. "What I know is that there were some blisters forming between the outer coating of "paint" and the gel coat." Blistered paint is one thing...blistered gelcoat is something else. If there were blisters in the gelcoat, they should have been opened up, then allowed to dry--which means leaving the boat out of the water for weeks, even months--and then filled and faired before painting. "There were a few spots where they sanded down into the gel to the glass to get at a few blisters that were more than skin deep." And didn't fill them?? "What I'm seeing is big flaking areas with sanded gel underneath, and some big blisters that feel like they're under some sort of flexible tar-like substance. The paint is also wrinkled up around some of these areas." That's NOT good! That guy didn't know what he was doing. Push him! Not to fix it--you don't want this bozo to come near your boat again!--but to refund your money. Don't talk to him again, put everything in writing from now on. Get a COMPETENT fiberglass guy to look at it (I'm also in AR, I'll help you find one) and give you a complete report of the damage done, plus the cost to repair it. Send him copies it via both regular AND certified mail (which he'll prob'ly refuse), with a demand for a full refund within X days. If he ignores you (which he prob'ly will, don't mess with him any further...file a claim in small claims (municipal court) for the amount he paid you plus any additional amount over that amount that it's gonna cost you to repair the damage he did. You don't need a lawyer for small claims court ($5,000 max in most states, higher in others), but you will need a report describing the extent of the damage and cost to correct it from a competent surveyor or fiberglass pro in your area, plus a lot of photos that clearly show the reason for your claim, to back up your claim. This WON'T be fun...and you'll prob'ly lose the use of your boat for the rest of this season, but if you don't stand up for yourself, no one else is gonna do it for you. Email me (I'm in all the directories for these sites) for help with finding someone who knows what he's doing and knows what has to be done.
The boat needs to come out of the water ASAP. "What I know is that there were some blisters forming between the outer coating of "paint" and the gel coat." Blistered paint is one thing...blistered gelcoat is something else. If there were blisters in the gelcoat, they should have been opened up, then allowed to dry--which means leaving the boat out of the water for weeks, even months--and then filled and faired before painting. "There were a few spots where they sanded down into the gel to the glass to get at a few blisters that were more than skin deep." And didn't fill them?? "What I'm seeing is big flaking areas with sanded gel underneath, and some big blisters that feel like they're under some sort of flexible tar-like substance. The paint is also wrinkled up around some of these areas." That's NOT good! That guy didn't know what he was doing. Push him! Not to fix it--you don't want this bozo to come near your boat again!--but to refund your money. Don't talk to him again, put everything in writing from now on. Get a COMPETENT fiberglass guy to look at it (I'm also in AR, I'll help you find one) and give you a complete report of the damage done, plus the cost to repair it. Send him copies it via both regular AND certified mail (which he'll prob'ly refuse), with a demand for a full refund within X days. If he ignores you (which he prob'ly will, don't mess with him any further...file a claim in small claims (municipal court) for the amount he paid you plus any additional amount over that amount that it's gonna cost you to repair the damage he did. You don't need a lawyer for small claims court ($5,000 max in most states, higher in others), but you will need a report describing the extent of the damage and cost to correct it from a competent surveyor or fiberglass pro in your area, plus a lot of photos that clearly show the reason for your claim, to back up your claim. This WON'T be fun...and you'll prob'ly lose the use of your boat for the rest of this season, but if you don't stand up for yourself, no one else is gonna do it for you. Email me (I'm in all the directories for these sites) for help with finding someone who knows what he's doing and knows what has to be done.
Bottom Job
Thanks for the replies everyone... I wish I could say I feel better about this, but at least I know now that I'm in the right to be upset. I'll be checking out the sites you recommended. To answer a question I'd rather not...no, I didn't have a contract and the reciept only says "labor" under services. I think I may still have some scrawlings on a piece of paper that the guy wrote in his office with some pricing. It's just that, being in an area where there's not much competition or choice, it's the difference in $2000.00 for a bottom job and $5000.00 for the next nearest contractor. I trusted the guy because I figured he knew what he was doing being the only person around that provided the service. I'll be checking with other people in the area to see what can be done. Thanks...
Thanks for the replies everyone... I wish I could say I feel better about this, but at least I know now that I'm in the right to be upset. I'll be checking out the sites you recommended. To answer a question I'd rather not...no, I didn't have a contract and the reciept only says "labor" under services. I think I may still have some scrawlings on a piece of paper that the guy wrote in his office with some pricing. It's just that, being in an area where there's not much competition or choice, it's the difference in $2000.00 for a bottom job and $5000.00 for the next nearest contractor. I trusted the guy because I figured he knew what he was doing being the only person around that provided the service. I'll be checking with other people in the area to see what can be done. Thanks...
You may need a barrier coat -
I had my bottom job last may = they also took a big bite off my bottom! (wallet area!) Sound like they didn't apply a barrier coat - What cost me an extra grand - is a barrier coat with interlux 1000 - 1001 - (along with a few blister area repairs) - then you apply a primer - like Interlux 2000 - 2001 --or 3000 - 3001 - and then your bottom paint - It's not that you are a woman - those guys treat everyone with the same - shall we say - courtesy - I inluded a link that helped me out with understaning this complex area of a boat - also recommend - this Old Boat - by Casey
I had my bottom job last may = they also took a big bite off my bottom! (wallet area!) Sound like they didn't apply a barrier coat - What cost me an extra grand - is a barrier coat with interlux 1000 - 1001 - (along with a few blister area repairs) - then you apply a primer - like Interlux 2000 - 2001 --or 3000 - 3001 - and then your bottom paint - It's not that you are a woman - those guys treat everyone with the same - shall we say - courtesy - I inluded a link that helped me out with understaning this complex area of a boat - also recommend - this Old Boat - by Casey
2nd to peggy
I didn't see your "what was done" post ... we crossed paths. Peggy's advise is dead on (thanks Peggy, it always is!). Take all the help and direction Peggy can give you on this one. You can recover from this one, but you're going to need some expert advise and work from here on ... NOT the ^&*T^& that you've been working with. Tom
I didn't see your "what was done" post ... we crossed paths. Peggy's advise is dead on (thanks Peggy, it always is!). Take all the help and direction Peggy can give you on this one. You can recover from this one, but you're going to need some expert advise and work from here on ... NOT the ^&*T^& that you've been working with. Tom
not over reacting
You are not over reacting. As others have said, you should not see glass matting from the outside. The paint should not come off even if scrubbed with a brush. If the gelcoat has been sanded off and the mat or roving is exposed you definately want the boat out of the water very very soon as it will begin to wick water into the fabric and then take a very long time to dry. If it is not dried properly before it is then repaired you may have blistering later. I hope that the contractor who did the work is liscensed. I would tell him that I want the problem remedied immediately, in a reasonable tone. If he has a problem with that I would call my lawyer right away, get some bids for repair from a reputable yard, and begin the process. I would give the original guy fair warning of this. I would also consult with a marine surveyor to oversee the repair. I am sorry that you are starting with your first boat this way. It really should be more fun than it sounds like you are having. Best regards.
You are not over reacting. As others have said, you should not see glass matting from the outside. The paint should not come off even if scrubbed with a brush. If the gelcoat has been sanded off and the mat or roving is exposed you definately want the boat out of the water very very soon as it will begin to wick water into the fabric and then take a very long time to dry. If it is not dried properly before it is then repaired you may have blistering later. I hope that the contractor who did the work is liscensed. I would tell him that I want the problem remedied immediately, in a reasonable tone. If he has a problem with that I would call my lawyer right away, get some bids for repair from a reputable yard, and begin the process. I would give the original guy fair warning of this. I would also consult with a marine surveyor to oversee the repair. I am sorry that you are starting with your first boat this way. It really should be more fun than it sounds like you are having. Best regards.
Peggy is correct
I probably should have read the entire thread before responding. I think Peggy is very correct in saying that it probably wouldn't be smart to have the same guy who botched the job do the repair. Her advice is very sound.
I probably should have read the entire thread before responding. I think Peggy is very correct in saying that it probably wouldn't be smart to have the same guy who botched the job do the repair. Her advice is very sound.
fwiw...
I can get heated up sometimes, but I can count the number of times I've taken anyone to court in my whole life on the fingers of one hand and have several fingers left over...IMO, our society is FAR to quick to fatten lawyers' wallets. But I've also learned to recognize when getting tough is the only way to go...this is one of those times. And the ONLY thing you should accept from this guy is a full refund...'cuz based on your description of what he's done, the best you can hope to get from him is just enough "spit and chewing gum" cosmetic work to hide the real problems and get you off his back...which is likely to leave your boat in even worse shape than it is now. Unfortunately, incompetent contractors are rarely willing to give refunds unless ordered to do so by a judge...and even then it can be hard to collect. The $5,000 quote you got from the other contractor sounds about right for a complete gelcoat peel, barrier coat and bottom paint. $2000 is what I paid a reputable contractor just to have a have a bad case "acne" (very shallow, very small blisters) opened up, dried out, faired and painted. It doesn't sound like you got either one! As far as I know, there's only one marine surveyor in the whole state of AR...and he's a commercial cargo surveyor who primarily works the LR port. However, the contractor who gave you the $5k quote is likely to know what he's doing...so I think your first step prob'ly oughta be to have the boat hauled at his location ASAP and get him involved. I don't qualify as a bottom expert, but I've had enough experience with it on my own boats to talk a good game <g>...at least I know the right questions to ask. And I'd welcome an excuse to make the hour's drive to Greer's Ferry. So all you have to do is ask, and I'll be glad to provide any help I can.
I can get heated up sometimes, but I can count the number of times I've taken anyone to court in my whole life on the fingers of one hand and have several fingers left over...IMO, our society is FAR to quick to fatten lawyers' wallets. But I've also learned to recognize when getting tough is the only way to go...this is one of those times. And the ONLY thing you should accept from this guy is a full refund...'cuz based on your description of what he's done, the best you can hope to get from him is just enough "spit and chewing gum" cosmetic work to hide the real problems and get you off his back...which is likely to leave your boat in even worse shape than it is now. Unfortunately, incompetent contractors are rarely willing to give refunds unless ordered to do so by a judge...and even then it can be hard to collect. The $5,000 quote you got from the other contractor sounds about right for a complete gelcoat peel, barrier coat and bottom paint. $2000 is what I paid a reputable contractor just to have a have a bad case "acne" (very shallow, very small blisters) opened up, dried out, faired and painted. It doesn't sound like you got either one! As far as I know, there's only one marine surveyor in the whole state of AR...and he's a commercial cargo surveyor who primarily works the LR port. However, the contractor who gave you the $5k quote is likely to know what he's doing...so I think your first step prob'ly oughta be to have the boat hauled at his location ASAP and get him involved. I don't qualify as a bottom expert, but I've had enough experience with it on my own boats to talk a good game <g>...at least I know the right questions to ask. And I'd welcome an excuse to make the hour's drive to Greer's Ferry. So all you have to do is ask, and I'll be glad to provide any help I can.
Law Suets
To be honest, I have never sued anyone either. But I have had a lawyer write a letter on my behalf from time to time. It costs about $100. You would be surprised the kind of change in someones attitude when they get such a letter. They usually get really polite and cooperative quickly.
To be honest, I have never sued anyone either. But I have had a lawyer write a letter on my behalf from time to time. It costs about $100. You would be surprised the kind of change in someones attitude when they get such a letter. They usually get really polite and cooperative quickly.
May I ask who made your boat worse?
As I live about 35 miles from greers ferry, I would like to know who did the work so I wont recommend them to anyone. The contractor that i will recommend is in North Little Rock. My Opinion is that the contractor actually made the problem worse by sanding away the Gel coat. You definitely need to get the boat out of the water as soon as possible. NOt only to prevent further damage but also to let it dry out for the next person to work on.
As I live about 35 miles from greers ferry, I would like to know who did the work so I wont recommend them to anyone. The contractor that i will recommend is in North Little Rock. My Opinion is that the contractor actually made the problem worse by sanding away the Gel coat. You definitely need to get the boat out of the water as soon as possible. NOt only to prevent further damage but also to let it dry out for the next person to work on.
THE COST OF THE BOTTOM JOB MIGHT
cost more than the boat is worth. Sorry, did you get a surveyor to look at the boat before you bought it? Are you sure you see "fiberglass matting through the holes"? If so It should come out right away, bottom paint removed, dig out any big blister and wash them out, wait a couple months for the hull to dry, fill the blisters, expoxy and bottom paint.
cost more than the boat is worth. Sorry, did you get a surveyor to look at the boat before you bought it? Are you sure you see "fiberglass matting through the holes"? If so It should come out right away, bottom paint removed, dig out any big blister and wash them out, wait a couple months for the hull to dry, fill the blisters, expoxy and bottom paint.
Given your screen name ...
... it also occurs to me that a secondary tactic might be to advise the contractor that Neal and others want to hear your story, and that at this point he has the ability to influence how you tell it. Might give you a "stay of execution." (I think I'm remembering the story right?) Tom
... it also occurs to me that a secondary tactic might be to advise the contractor that Neal and others want to hear your story, and that at this point he has the ability to influence how you tell it. Might give you a "stay of execution." (I think I'm remembering the story right?) Tom
No Gelcoat Required
A point of interest here. The gelcoat on the bottom is purely cosmetic and does not impact the absorption of water by the hull laminate at all. I would not be concerned about thin gelcoat. I would be concerned if the laminate was exposed (sanded into) and not then coated with an appropriate epoxy to minimize the water migrating into the laminate through the exposed/raw glass fibers in the laminate. The BS about not washing the hull with acetone to remove the mold release wax is a problem. Typicallay this should be done prior to sanding. If your guy sanded the hull and then tried to use an acetone wash, you are out of luck because it won't do much good after the wax has been ground into the gelcoat and laminate. On the positive side, I would be suprised if there was any mold release wax left on a 1972 boat. On the bad side, seems to me like your guy is dishonest, incompetent or both. I agree with the others that you should get you $$ back and seek other help. I would not however spend $$ on a barrier coat. Kevin s/v Weekend Pass
A point of interest here. The gelcoat on the bottom is purely cosmetic and does not impact the absorption of water by the hull laminate at all. I would not be concerned about thin gelcoat. I would be concerned if the laminate was exposed (sanded into) and not then coated with an appropriate epoxy to minimize the water migrating into the laminate through the exposed/raw glass fibers in the laminate. The BS about not washing the hull with acetone to remove the mold release wax is a problem. Typicallay this should be done prior to sanding. If your guy sanded the hull and then tried to use an acetone wash, you are out of luck because it won't do much good after the wax has been ground into the gelcoat and laminate. On the positive side, I would be suprised if there was any mold release wax left on a 1972 boat. On the bad side, seems to me like your guy is dishonest, incompetent or both. I agree with the others that you should get you $$ back and seek other help. I would not however spend $$ on a barrier coat. Kevin s/v Weekend Pass
Consider your options
I know it sounds harsh, but unless you can get your money back from the original contractor, and perhaps something to cover the additional damage he did (which will be difficult), you should probably consider how much more money you should put into your boat. I agree with everything that Peggy said, except: However, the contractor who gave you the $5k quote is likely to know what he's doing... I wouldn't advise you to just assume that this guy is any better than the first. But get the boat out of the water immediately, so no more damage is done. Then get expert advise - there is an incredible amount of knowledge on the internet about blisters, and as usual opinions are extremely varied. I don't think anyone will try to argue that exposed matting and water in the laminate is not serious. And a 'peel and seal' job is NOT something you want to trust to anyone but an expert.... I have also read a lot of stories about fixes like this that didn't get done right.... Be strong. Get an attorney to stand behind you. Dot your i's and cross your t's and keep a paper trail. Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
I know it sounds harsh, but unless you can get your money back from the original contractor, and perhaps something to cover the additional damage he did (which will be difficult), you should probably consider how much more money you should put into your boat. I agree with everything that Peggy said, except: However, the contractor who gave you the $5k quote is likely to know what he's doing... I wouldn't advise you to just assume that this guy is any better than the first. But get the boat out of the water immediately, so no more damage is done. Then get expert advise - there is an incredible amount of knowledge on the internet about blisters, and as usual opinions are extremely varied. I don't think anyone will try to argue that exposed matting and water in the laminate is not serious. And a 'peel and seal' job is NOT something you want to trust to anyone but an expert.... I have also read a lot of stories about fixes like this that didn't get done right.... Be strong. Get an attorney to stand behind you. Dot your i's and cross your t's and keep a paper trail. Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Kevin, I wouldn't barrier coat a boat that old
either. It's got all the blisters it's ever gonna by now. Open up all the existing ones...dry 'em...fill and fair...and paint the bottom. That was the advice I was given on my 20 yr old boat by both the surveyor and the "bottom guy" I hired to do the work. Their concensus was, even if it does get another blister or two, it's a lot less expensive to repair those than a barrier coat. Exposed roving is another story, though. And so is bottom paint flaking off in huge chunks. Bottom paint in fresh water should last 5-6 years.
either. It's got all the blisters it's ever gonna by now. Open up all the existing ones...dry 'em...fill and fair...and paint the bottom. That was the advice I was given on my 20 yr old boat by both the surveyor and the "bottom guy" I hired to do the work. Their concensus was, even if it does get another blister or two, it's a lot less expensive to repair those than a barrier coat. Exposed roving is another story, though. And so is bottom paint flaking off in huge chunks. Bottom paint in fresh water should last 5-6 years.
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