Boom/traveler/mainsheet...Cockpit renovation with bimini! Help!

Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
I own a 27' Cascade and I would like to make more room in my cockpit area for a bimini with full coverage to be able to enclose this area. The end of the boom is just inches away from my face when at the helm. Also it is so low it prevents me from putting a bimini top over the cockpit. Can I raise the gooseneck and replace the boom with a shorter boom thus decreasing the length while also increasing the height? I understand I would have to have my mainsail cut to fit the new dimensions but would this throw the entire performance of the boat off. Are boats set up to be as is or is this something that can be done? Also If a boat has the mainsheet with traveler mounted in the cockpit just ahead of the helm, is it possible to change that out to a German mainsheet system mounted on the coachroof and lead back to the helm?
I hope I don't sound crazy here but I'm just wanting to free up space in the cockpit and make this more suited to my needs without buying another boat. Please take a look at the attached photo and any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you so much! Cheers my friends!
 

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RoyS

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Jun 3, 2012
1,739
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
The modifications that you propose seem impractical to me. Just my opinion after looking at the photo.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I think you can raise your gooseneck. A friend with a Ranger 26 did this so he could add a dodger. Yes he lost some main but the 26 is a masthead rig of 1970's vintage and it had very little impact on speed. I think he even got some PHRF time. The reason I don't think there will be much impact is that the main on 70's rig weren't the driving sail. It was the jib primarily that drove the boat and the main was "Steering" the sail plan. We used to say that you were sailing the Ranger's well when you had a bubble in the main luff due to the jib. So, about 3/8ths of the main isn't doing much anyway. You might miss that sail area a little downwind in light air but you'll enjoy your dodger/bimini a lot.
As for shortening the boom that may be possible. For some of the same reasons you may not lose that much. In fact I have often wondered why the main's on these boats aren't more narrow in width and thus have a higher aspect ratio i.e. more efficient.
I like where your mainsheet is. If you move it to the coachroof you will convert to mid-boom sheeting -yes? Mid boom sheeting puts a lot more force on the boom and it might be that you'll need a boom with bigger sections. Leading the controls lines aft will add friction to the system and make controlling the boom more difficult. And you'll have to bridge the companion way/sea hood. So it will have to be beefy and you don't have much room on either side of the companionway to anchor it. I agree you can't run the bimini forward of the mainsheet. There's little room to move your traveler forward on the cockpit seats because of the lazarette. Maybe you call move it to the cockpit sole a foot forward of where it is. That would help a little.
 
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Jan 19, 2010
12,362
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Before you start thinking about cutting the main.... three questions.
1) When you raise the main, is the head of the sail all the way to the top of the mast?

Most are not. So you may already be able to raise your boom a few inches without much modification beyond securing your goose-neck a little higher. I would leave an inch or two of empty track at the top so you can tighten the luff in a strong blow but other than that the only slight disadvantage is you will heel imperceptibly more in the same amount of wind.

You might find that just getting the boom up and out of your face is enough to make it feel right.

2) When you have your out-haul tight, is the clew all the way to the end of the boom? If not, you may be able to shave an inch or two off of the end of your boom without doing a thing to your main. Again, I would measure this with the out-haul relatively slack so you have room to tighten the foot in a strong blow. I damaged my boom a few years ago and had to cut two inches off. Luckily my foot was about 4" from the end of my boom. (All you need is a hacksaw and a rivet gun - see photos)

3) Is your topping lift adjustable? On my H26, I have an adjustable topping lift. And I have to raise the end of my boom to get the bimi under the boom, but then I can lower it back down and the boom sits about an inch above the bimi. So you may find that by raising your boom an inch or two, and then nudging the tip of the boom up with the topping lift just as you deploy the bimi (then slack the topping lift after the bimi is deployed) that you have solved 90% of your concerns without much cost and sacrifice to performance.
2018-06-23 12.26.15.jpg
IMG_0837 (1).jpg
2018-06-23 13.32.52.jpg
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
The gooseneck can be raised, how easy it is to do that depends on your particular gooseneck. If you raise the foot of the sail by raising the boom, you will also raise the center of effort and perhaps move it forward. This will affect the boat's performance. With a higher center of effort there may be a greater tendency for the boat to heel.

Changing from end boom sheeting to mid boom sheeting is problematic and would likely require a new boom. The issue is the force applied by the mainsheet. Mid boom sheeting applies greater force to the boom than end boom sheeting, the boom will have to be strong enough to withstand those forces or it will bend and potentially break. Changing the sheeting is probably not a good option.

Shortening the boom a few inches may be your best option. This will keep the center of effort low and the forces on the boom will not significantly increase, if they do at all.
 
Nov 26, 2012
1,653
Hunter 34 Berkeley
I think the best way to go about it is raise the boom and have the main cut to fit the new dimensions. I would first decide how much (or how little) head room I needed under the Bimini. Then keep the traveler where it is and go with a two piece Bimini. One piece in front of the traveler and a second behind it. Shortening the main will compromise performance somewhat but that's the deal if you want a Bimini.
 
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Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
I think you can raise your gooseneck. A friend with a Ranger 26 did this so he could add a dodger. Yes he lost some main but the 26 is a masthead rig of 1970's vintage and it had very little impact on speed. I think he even got some PHRF time. The reason I don't think there will be much impact is that the main on 70's rig weren't the driving sail. It was the jib primarily that drove the boat and the main was "Steering" the sail plan. We used to say that you were sailing the Ranger's well when you had a bubble in the main luff due to the jib. So, about 3/8ths of the main isn't doing much anyway. You might miss that sail area a little downwind in light air but you'll enjoy your dodger/bimini a lot.
As for shortening the boom that may be possible. For some of the same reasons you may not lose that much. In fact I have often wondered why the main's on these boats aren't more narrow in width and thus have a higher aspect ratio i.e. more efficient.
I like where your mainsheet is. If you move it to the coachroof you will convert to mid-boom sheeting -yes? Mid boom sheeting puts a lot more force on the boom and it might be that you'll need a boom with bigger sections. Leading the controls lines aft will add friction to the system and make controlling the boom more difficult. And you'll have to bridge the companion way/sea hood. So it will have to be beefy and you don't have much room on either side of the companionway to anchor it. I agree you can't run the bimini forward of the mainsheet. There's little room to move your traveler forward on the cockpit seats because of the lazarette. Maybe you call move it to the cockpit sole a foot forward of where it is. That would help a little.
Thanks so much for the reply my friend. Appreciate the input here. I think I'll just be leaving the mainsheet as is. Yes, it would be mid boom sheeting and might not be the best.
 
Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
Before you start thinking about cutting the main.... three questions.
1) When you raise the main, is the head of the sail all the way to the top of the mast? No, there is actually some room.

Most are not. So you may already be able to raise your boom a few inches without much modification beyond securing your goose-neck a little higher. I would leave an inch or two of empty track at the top so you can tighten the luff in a strong blow but other than that the only slight disadvantage is you will heel imperceptibly more in the same amount of wind.

You might find that just getting the boom up and out of your face is enough to make it feel right.

2) When you have your out-haul tight, is the clew all the way to the end of the boom? No, it is not. If not, you may be able to shave an inch or two off of the end of your boom without doing a thing to your main. Again, I would measure this with the out-haul relatively slack so you have room to tighten the foot in a strong blow. I damaged my boom a few years ago and had to cut two inches off. Luckily my foot was about 4" from the end of my boom. (All you need is a hacksaw and a rivet gun - see photos)

3) Is your topping lift adjustable? Yes, it is. On my H26, I have an adjustable topping lift. And I have to raise the end of my boom to get the bimi under the boom, but then I can lower it back down and the boom sits about an inch above the bimi. So you may find that by raising your boom an inch or two, and then nudging the tip of the boom up with the topping lift just as you deploy the bimi (then slack the topping lift after the bimi is deployed) that you have solved 90% of your concerns without much cost and sacrifice to performance. View attachment 176819View attachment 176820View attachment 176822
Really appreciate the response here my friend! I've answered those questions in red above. Gave me some things to think about. Thank you!
 
Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
The gooseneck can be raised, how easy it is to do that depends on your particular gooseneck. If you raise the foot of the sail by raising the boom, you will also raise the center of effort and perhaps move it forward. This will affect the boat's performance. With a higher center of effort there may be a greater tendency for the boat to heel.

Changing from end boom sheeting to mid boom sheeting is problematic and would likely require a new boom. The issue is the force applied by the mainsheet. Mid boom sheeting applies greater force to the boom than end boom sheeting, the boom will have to be strong enough to withstand those forces or it will bend and potentially break. Changing the sheeting is probably not a good option.

Shortening the boom a few inches may be your best option. This will keep the center of effort low and the forces on the boom will not significantly increase, if they do at all.
Thank you for the advice my friend! Appreciate it very much. Been sailing a year now and I'm finding what I like and don't like. Wanting to get things dialed as I spend more time on the water and take longer trips here in the Pacific Northwest where the weather can be pretty bad.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Really appreciate the response here my friend! I've answered those questions in red above. Gave me some things to think about. Thank you!
The room at the top of the mast may be necessary to allow the sail to clear the backstay. If you can get a photo of the sail fully raised and centered in the boat, you'll have a better idea of how much room there is.
 
Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
I think the best way to go about it is raise the boom and have the main cut to fit the new dimensions. I would first decide how much (or how little) head room I needed under the Bimini. Then keep the traveler where it is and go with a two piece Bimini. One piece in front of the traveler and a second behind it. Shortening the main will compromise performance somewhat but that's the deal if you want a Bimini.
Thanks for the advice! Yes a 2 piece bimini might be the best option here.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
As you can see, raising and shortening the boom is doable. You won't increase your aloft center-of-effort and heeling moment because you aren't adding sail. The center of effort may, will, move slightly up, but the force will be less over all. You still have all that sail up there as it is. Currently, you just have a little more down lower. All of it contributes to heeling.

In a casual look at your photograph, I'm not sure you would even need a shorter boom. You would, of course, need to trim off the bottom of the sail. What you want to watch out for is the leach interfering with the backstay. If you recut the sail or raise the peak higher, make sure there is clearance. This also goes for the boom. Often, the boom is lifted by the air filling the sail and can catch the backstay if not sheeted tight.

For a new location of your traveler, cabintop sheeting doesn't look good for that boat. Since you are interested in a bimini anyway, you might consider an arch top traveler. Expensive, but it should give you everything you want, including bimini support.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
As you can see, raising and shortening the boom is doable. You won't increase your aloft center-of-effort and heeling moment because you aren't adding sail. The center of effort may, will, move slightly up, but the force will be less over all. You still have all that sail up there as it is. Currently, you just have a little more down lower. All of it contributes to heeling.

In a casual look at your photograph, I'm not sure you would even need a shorter boom. You would, of course, need to trim off the bottom of the sail. What you want to watch out for is the leach interfering with the backstay. If you recut the sail or raise the peak higher, make sure there is clearance. This also goes for the boom. Often, the boom is lifted by the air filling the sail and can catch the backstay if not sheeted tight.

For a new location of your traveler, cabintop sheeting doesn't look good for that boat. Since you are interested in a bimini anyway, you might consider an arch top traveler. Expensive, but it should give you everything you want, including bimini support.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Will, thank you for this insight!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I see you have made up your mind and I think "thank God, he came to the right conclusion!" I'll be more direct ... you could do all the things you wrote and absolutely ruin your beautiful pocket cruiser, which seems to be very well set up as is. A bimini, particularly in the Pacific Northwest, simply isn't worth it. I have a very similar boat and I can tell you that I prefer to sail without the bimini all the time. It's just that in south New Jersey, we can get some of those blazing hot days when you just need to be out of the sun. But the reality that I find is that the bimini fails to keep us fully protected except in the middle of the day when the sun is overhead and we are on a very gentle sail, or at dock or anchor. Have you ever sat at a restaurant with an outdoor patio where the tables all come with an umbrella? You find that the shade is always in the space between the tables, while the seating at the table is usually in the bright sun! :cool: That's the same with a bimini. The reasons I don't particularly like my bimini: It can't keep me dry. Too often, it doesn't keep the sun off me even when I'm directly underneath. I can't see the mainsail telltales and I have to rely on the wind instrument to know wind direction. I had to modify it to use the backstay adjustment and even so it inhibits the adjustment. It's too short and I have to stoop under it, which gives me a kink in my neck. Even if I wanted it raised so I can stand under it, then it would be ridiculously high and serve even less purpose for sun protection. The supports are just always in the way. It's hard to explain the reason why, I just get very annoyed when trying to pass lines, or reach outside the boat for whatever reason ... those supports are nothing but interference! When you have a nice wheel like you do, you would be surprised how easily the bimini shrinks your cockpit to the point of aggravation!

Basically, the problem is that a 27' boat that has a nice hull and rig for performance, is just to small for a bimini (and probably a dodger, too but I don't have experience with a dodger). However, in July and August, we usually need our bimini because we spend enough time at dock or at anchor with blazing sun overhead and the shade in the middle of the day is necessary.

If you really want some weather protection that a bimini might offer, I suggest that you need to step up in size just a little bit so that it works better. A Catalina 30 provides the weather protection without sacrificing everything that I just talked about.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
@Scott T-Bird is spot on.

If the Bimini is not easily installed, then it probably isn't worth the effort. If you are looking for sun protection at anchor or at the dock, then a large awning can be made that sits on the boom. I had on my Sabre 30. I found a water proof nylon tarp that covered most of the cockpit, the companion way, and the cabin. It offered some protection from rain, lots of protection from sun, and kept the cabin cooler. And it was much cheaper than a Bimini.

In the PNW, a dodger might be helpful, as it breaks the wind coming into the cockpit and protects the front of the cockpit from spray.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Dave, I don't know why I didn't come to your conclusion a long time ago! I've always thought that an awning would be a nice addition. Now that I realize :banghead::banghead:that I could remove the bimini even in the summer, simply by having an easily deployed awning, I wouldn't have to go thru the hassle of removing the bimini just on race day! That's an easy little project! I've used a HD tarp in the past and it did a lot to improve the comfort!
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
@Cascade27 They say “you can make a silk purse from a sow’s ear” but why would you want to?

The Cascade 27 is a great boat and will bring you many years of fun adventures. It is not a boat that is going to be everything you can imagine.

Rebuilding a boat is different from refitting a boat. There was a boat in the yard here in Everett. It was a sailboat that the owner built what looked like a Telephone Box in the cockpit “to get out of the rain” and it had a tree growing in the cockpit. I never could identify a reason for that. It sat in the auction yard for a couple of years, then finally the sawsall was used to cut it apart and ship it to the dump.

You may find after sailing for a couple of years that your boat is all you will ever want for your lifetime. In that time you will have developed a clear understanding of her capabilities and any changes will be compatible with your then priorities. On the other hand you might find you enjoy day or camp out overnights sailing with her and will have a new picture of what you want in a boat. Your Cascade27 will be ready for the next sailor who wants to learn and enjoy the PacificNW waters. The money you save not reinventing your boat can be applied to the new boat of your new dreams.

As long as your not planning a Party for 10 of your closest friends there is no reason your boat cannot take you up the sound out of “Olympic” waters and to adventures in the Juan d’Fuca Straits. Get a good set of foulies or a dry suit, a good couple of hats (one for sun, one for rain, and maybe one for bone chilling cold) and head northerly. It is more than a hundred miles from Olympia in the south to Deception Pass in the north. Hundreds of Towns/marinas and thousands of inlets, bays, coves, and islands to explore.

I hope to see you out on the water. (Note: no dodger, or Bimini - I do have a couple of tarps I rig as shade when at anchor or in a marina.)
C65E5B21-BB63-4243-B4C7-960F8F81A6EF.jpeg
 
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Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
I see you have made up your mind and I think "thank God, he came to the right conclusion!" I'll be more direct ... you could do all the things you wrote and absolutely ruin your beautiful pocket cruiser, which seems to be very well set up as is. A bimini, particularly in the Pacific Northwest, simply isn't worth it. I have a very similar boat and I can tell you that I prefer to sail without the bimini all the time. It's just that in south New Jersey, we can get some of those blazing hot days when you just need to be out of the sun. But the reality that I find is that the bimini fails to keep us fully protected except in the middle of the day when the sun is overhead and we are on a very gentle sail, or at dock or anchor. Have you ever sat at a restaurant with an outdoor patio where the tables all come with an umbrella? You find that the shade is always in the space between the tables, while the seating at the table is usually in the bright sun! :cool: That's the same with a bimini. The reasons I don't particularly like my bimini: It can't keep me dry. Too often, it doesn't keep the sun off me even when I'm directly underneath. I can't see the mainsail telltales and I have to rely on the wind instrument to know wind direction. I had to modify it to use the backstay adjustment and even so it inhibits the adjustment. It's too short and I have to stoop under it, which gives me a kink in my neck. Even if I wanted it raised so I can stand under it, then it would be ridiculously high and serve even less purpose for sun protection. The supports are just always in the way. It's hard to explain the reason why, I just get very annoyed when trying to pass lines, or reach outside the boat for whatever reason ... those supports are nothing but interference! When you have a nice wheel like you do, you would be surprised how easily the bimini shrinks your cockpit to the point of aggravation!

Basically, the problem is that a 27' boat that has a nice hull and rig for performance, is just to small for a bimini (and probably a dodger, too but I don't have experience with a dodger). However, in July and August, we usually need our bimini because we spend enough time at dock or at anchor with blazing sun overhead and the shade in the middle of the day is necessary.

If you really want some weather protection that a bimini might offer, I suggest that you need to step up in size just a little bit so that it works better. A Catalina 30 provides the weather protection without sacrificing everything that I just talked about.
Thanks Scott! Appreciate your reply. Yes, she is a nice little pocket cruiser as is. Cheers my friend!
 
Apr 2, 2020
16
Cascade 27 Olympia
@Cascade27 They say “you can make a silk purse from a sow’s ear” but why would you want to?

The Cascade 27 is a great boat and will bring you many years of fun adventures. It is not a boat that is going to be everything you can imagine.

Rebuilding a boat is different from refitting a boat. There was a boat in the yard here in Everett. It was a sailboat that the owner built what looked like a Telephone Box in the cockpit “to get out of the rain” and it had a tree growing in the cockpit. I never could identify a reason for that. It sat in the auction yard for a couple of years, then finally the sawsall was used to cut it apart and ship it to the dump.

You may find after sailing for a couple of years that your boat is all you will ever want for your lifetime. In that time you will have developed a clear understanding of her capabilities and any changes will be compatible with your then priorities. On the other hand you might find you enjoy day or camp out overnights sailing with her and will have a new picture of what you want in a boat. Your Cascade27 will be ready for the next sailor who wants to learn and enjoy the PacificNW waters. The money you save not reinventing your boat can be applied to the new boat of your new dreams.

As long as your not planning a Party for 10 of your closest friends there is no reason your boat cannot take you up the sound out of “Olympic” waters and to adventures in the Juan d’Fuca Straits. Get a good set of foulies or a dry suit, a good couple of hats (one for sun, one for rain, and maybe one for bone chilling cold) and head northerly. It is more than a hundred miles from Olympia in the south to Deception Pass in the north. Hundreds of Towns/marinas and thousands of inlets, bays, coves, and islands to explore.

I hope to see you out on the water. (Note: no dodger, or Bimini - I do have a couple of tarps I rig as shade when at anchor or in a marina.)
View attachment 176883
John, thank you so much for this insight. Yes, I've come to the conclusion that just enjoying her as is will be the best bet. My plans are definitely to sail north and explore beyond the puget sound but I still have so much to explore within. You seem to have heard about Cascades. I think she is a pretty solid build and from what I have read built soundly. Unfortunately a very narrow beam and just doesn't quite have the room I'm wanting for longer adventures. I'll enjoy her while I can though. Already learned so much about what I want and don't want in a boat. A roller fulling system being one thing I absolutely would love to have on my next boat. Yes, hope to see you out on the water. You've got a Cal 35? That's exactly the length I feel I will end up with in the future. Not too big, not too small. There are a few Pearsons in the 34-36 range I've got my eye on but they are a little more coin. There is something to be said about owning your boat outright. This Cascade cost me $4500.00 and have had no real issues with her. The little one cylinder diesel works great. All 9hp of her. :) Will keep an eye out for your Cal when I'm cruising up north. Cheers mate!
 
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