Boat shopping. Too heavy? Too light?

Dec 25, 2022
6
MacGregor 26s Hoonah
I'm searching for a sailboat to buy, but I don't know much and could use some direction. The boat would be sailed and moored in SE Alaska, so coastal cruising, with bucking winds and tides in long, narrow channels, traversing choppy straits, etc. I need to stay under 30 feet for mooring purposes, plus I don't want to have to pilot some unwieldy barge in tight harbors since I am usually sailing alone. So I've been thinking something lighter and quicker, fun to sail, but still safe when the weather turns nasty and I need to slog thru to find safe harbor.

I've been looking at 80s-era boats, 27 to 29 feet, but I'm not sure what is too light for my purposes. Is a 6000 pound boat with a 2000# keel too light, such as a Sun 27 or San Juan 28? Should I be looking at boats closer to 10,000 pounds, similar Catalina 30? But I also want something that will get up and move in lighter winds, and I'm thinking the 10,000 pound boat will require a stiffer breeze to move that weight.

I know there is a style of boat that will be ideal for this niche, I just don't have the experience to know what it is. Should I stay away from any boat that is under a certain weight?

Thanks!
 
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Apr 22, 2011
927
Hunter 27 Pecan Grove, Oriental, NC
Lighter is faster and heavier is more comfortable. Is your desire for speed greater than your need for comfort, then go for a lighter boat. I think either a light or heavy boat can be seaworthy. Most 27-30 foot boats are somewhere in the middle.
 
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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,820
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Catalina 30. Cal 30/31. Hunter 30. All about the same. The cal and Catalina might have an edge.
C&C 30. A Cascade 30. Bullet proof hull.
There are many boats in that size which can capture your heart.
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,091
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Where are you shopping and if any distance, do you have a plan to get the boat home?
(A member of our YC in Portland just sold his NordicTug26, and it is going up to Alaska on a barge.)
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,476
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I would see if you could find a fractional rig -that is a rig in which the forestay doesn't go to the top of the mast. They usually don't have a large overlapping jib and therefore are easier to tack - especially short handed. Unfortunately masthead rigs ruled the 70's and much of the 80's.
I would look for a Diesel engine and avoid an outboard if current is a danger.
An Alieron Express 28 comes to mind. It's about the easiest boat to sail I can think of. There's also the Nonsuch line of Catboat-ish boats which are very easy to sail and have spacious accommodations. I think the wishbone boom can be a problem sailing downwind in waves.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I read some years back, I think Chichester writing about the custom build of Gypsymoth, but maybe elsewhere, that so-called heavy displacement cruising yachts as a matter of design are not exaggeratedly slower in light airs than those cruisers with a fin keel. (Need to compare apples with apples, here.) Of course, those with a full keel have more wetted surface area so should be slower, but by how much, really? They don’t accelerate as quickly, perhaps, but once moving they cruise along just fine. But to answer the basic question, for cruising in SE Alaska I think I’d choose a fairly heavy yacht, like a Baba 30 (12,500# displacement) for example, but there should be other possibilities. I noticed a Baba for sale on Yachworld.com located in Portland, OR. When you’re “out in it” you’ll appreciate the comfort and stability of the heavier yacht. It’s not Southern California up there!!
 
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Dec 25, 2022
6
MacGregor 26s Hoonah
I would see if you could find a fractional rig -that is a rig in which the forestay doesn't go to the top of the mast. They usually don't have a large overlapping jib and therefore are easier to tack - especially short handed. Unfortunately masthead rigs ruled the 70's and much of the 80's.
I would look for a Diesel engine and avoid an outboard if current is a danger.
An Alieron Express 28 comes to mind. It's about the easiest boat to sail I can think of. There's also the Nonsuch line of Catboat-ish boats which are very easy to sail and have spacious accommodations. I think the wishbone boom can be a problem sailing downwind in waves.
Looking at the Alieron Express 28, displacement is at 4400 pounds, which seems very light to me. But with that 2000 lb keel, it's stiff with ballast/ displacement at 45.4. Maybe this is the measurement I should be more focused on?
 
Dec 25, 2022
6
MacGregor 26s Hoonah
Where are you shopping and if any distance, do you have a plan to get the boat home?
(A member of our YC in Portland just sold his NordicTug26, and it is going up to Alaska on a barge.)
I'm shopping in Puget Sound and sailing to Alaska in June.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,752
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Welcome to SBO. Which boat should I buy is a pretty common question for newcomers to the sailing forums. You will receive a lot of suggestions.

The answer to your question about using weight as a criteria is a question trying to simplify a decision. Weight is an easy criteria to use, however, it is only one small factor in how well a boat sails and which boat is most suitable for the kind of sailing you intend to do. Hull design is as important or more so than weight. Live aboard space is also important.

To put boat design into perspective, the 80s were an interesting time for boat builders in a lot of ways, including financial, but that is another story. A lot of boats were built to criteria established by racing authorities, in the 80s there was a transition from following the CCA rules to the IOR rules along with the beginning of what eventually turned into sport boats. A fourth design thread was the beginning of "dock condos," boats built more for comfort at the dock than sailing ability.

The CCA design boats are very traditional looking, have full or semi-full keels and narrow beams. Typical designs came from Carl Allberg, Allied Seawind, and Cape Dory among others. These are fairly sea kindly boats for their size and tend to be a bit heavier than other boats of their size. They will be a bit slower than some of the other designs. The hulls tend to be more V shaped which along with the longer keels allows them to track straight and ride waves a bit more comfortably.

The IOR boats tend to have tall masts and big head sails with fin keels. They are a bit beamier and quicker than the CCA boats, however they can be a bit squarely under a spinnaker. Interiors are a bit larger and more comfortable, these were often marketed as racer/cruisers, boats to race on Wednesday evening and cruise on the weekends with family. There can be more variation in hull design here than with the CCA boats. C&C, Sabre, some Tartans, Cals, and Pearsons are some of the brands that fall in this niche. These boats had fin keels which improved up wind speed and pointing ability due to the keel shape and reduced wetted area. Hulls with more of a V shape especially in the bow can be very comfortable boats in most conditions. Boats with flatter or U shaped may be a little faster off the wind but will tend to pound going up wind. I had a Sabre 30 for a number of years and it was a dry boat that handled sailing up wind in a sea with out pounding.

A third style emerged in the 80s, the club racer. Pearson Flyer's, Tartan 10s, J30s were among this group. These boats were light by design often with a cored hull. These boats were designed to do well on the Club racing circuit with good upwind and downwind performance at the price of some comfort in sailing. They can pound going upwind and be wet. In my younger days I spent a lot of time sitting on the rail of a J30 and Pearson Flyer. Neither were ever a boat I wanted to own.

Finally there was the emerging category of "dock condos," boats that were designed and built more for comfort at anchor or a dock rather than their sailing ability. Often they were large and beamy with plenty of room for entertaining. Since dock condo is a somewhat derisive term, I won't mention brands or models. You'll know one when you see it. Some of these boats were sold as a "lot of boat for the money."

For your intended use, you'll do fine with boats in one of the first two categories. One that has been reasonably well maintained and speaks to your heart. Learn some more about hull design and pay attention to that more than weight alone.

Good Old Boat magazine has a feature in each issue where an older boat is in the spot light. Part of the feature is a review by Rob Mazza a naval architect who was part of the C&C design team and has worked at other firms. Sailing magazine also reviews older boats, another good source for information. And there are no doubt more informative article on hull design available online.

Good Luck! Enjoy. :beer:
 
Dec 25, 2022
6
MacGregor 26s Hoonah
Catalina 30. Cal 30/31. Hunter 30. All about the same. The cal and Catalina might have an edge.
C&C 30. A Cascade 30. Bullet proof hull.
There are many boats in that size which can capture your heart.
Cal 30- 9600 lb, Hunter 30- 9700 lb, Cat 30- 10200 lb, C&C 30, 8300 lb... Is this the displacement range you would recommend? I saw some great deals in the 6000-7000 lb range (Sunstar 28- 6300 lb and Ranger 29- 6750 lb), but again, I just don't have the knowledge base to know if this is too light.
 
Dec 25, 2022
6
MacGregor 26s Hoonah
Welcome to SBO. Which boat should I buy is a pretty common question for newcomers to the sailing forums. You will receive a lot of suggestions.

The answer to your question about using weight as a criteria is a question trying to simplify a decision. Weight is an easy criteria to use, however, it is only one small factor in how well a boat sails and which boat is most suitable for the kind of sailing you intend to do. Hull design is as important or more so than weight. Live aboard space is also important.

To put boat design into perspective, the 80s were an interesting time for boat builders in a lot of ways, including financial, but that is another story. A lot of boats were built to criteria established by racing authorities, in the 80s there was a transition from following the CCA rules to the IOR rules along with the beginning of what eventually turned into sport boats. A fourth design thread was the beginning of "dock condos," boats built more for comfort at the dock than sailing ability.

The CCA design boats are very traditional looking, have full or semi-full keels and narrow beams. Typical designs came from Carl Allberg, Allied Seawind, and Cape Dory among others. These are fairly sea kindly boats for their size and tend to be a bit heavier than other boats of their size. They will be a bit slower than some of the other designs. The hulls tend to be more V shaped which along with the longer keels allows them to track straight and ride waves a bit more comfortably.

The IOR boats tend to have tall masts and big head sails with fin keels. They are a bit beamier and quicker than the CCA boats, however they can be a bit squarely under a spinnaker. Interiors are a bit larger and more comfortable, these were often marketed as racer/cruisers, boats to race on Wednesday evening and cruise on the weekends with family. There can be more variation in hull design here than with the CCA boats. C&C, Sabre, some Tartans, Cals, and Pearsons are some of the brands that fall in this niche. These boats had fin keels which improved up wind speed and pointing ability due to the keel shape and reduced wetted area. Hulls with more of a V shape especially in the bow can be very comfortable boats in most conditions. Boats with flatter or U shaped may be a little faster off the wind but will tend to pound going up wind. I had a Sabre 30 for a number of years and it was a dry boat that handled sailing up wind in a sea with out pounding.

A third style emerged in the 80s, the club racer. Pearson Flyer's, Tartan 10s, J30s were among this group. These boats were light by design often with a cored hull. These boats were designed to do well on the Club racing circuit with good upwind and downwind performance at the price of some comfort in sailing. They can pound going upwind and be wet. In my younger days I spent a lot of time sitting on the rail of a J30 and Pearson Flyer. Neither were ever a boat I wanted to own.

Finally there was the emerging category of "dock condos," boats that were designed and built more for comfort at anchor or a dock rather than their sailing ability. Often they were large and beamy with plenty of room for entertaining. Since dock condo is a somewhat derisive term, I won't mention brands or models. You'll know one when you see it. Some of these boats were sold as a "lot of boat for the money."

For your intended use, you'll do fine with boats in one of the first two categories. One that has been reasonably well maintained and speaks to your heart. Learn some more about hull design and pay attention to that more than weight alone.

Good Old Boat magazine has a feature in each issue where an older boat is in the spot light. Part of the feature is a review by Rob Mazza a naval architect who was part of the C&C design team and has worked at other firms. Sailing magazine also reviews older boats, another good source for information. And there are no doubt more informative article on hull design available online.

Good Luck! Enjoy. :beer:
Thanks, Dave. Excellent info. The boats I've been looking at fall within the 2nd category, I believe. Can you tell me if the ballast/ displacement ratio is a strong consideration. It seems to me that if the boat is stiffer it won't be as tender and less likely for a novice skipper to lose control of.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Thanks, Dave. Excellent info. The boats I've been looking at fall within the 2nd category, I believe. Can you tell me if the ballast/ displacement ratio is a strong consideration. It seems to me that if the boat is stiffer it won't be as tender and less likely for a novice skipper to lose control of.
Whatever model design you choose, it would be well to consider a yacht with diesel-fired heating, or other. The reality of boat buying is consideration of what is on the market, at what price, and where located. Your pick will likely have to fit into those parameters ahead of preconceptions.
 
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Dec 28, 2015
1,897
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
I think you are excessively basing your purchasing foundation on weight. If you are not trailering the boat ( in that length probably not) then focus on other perimeters. In waters like Alaska where you can have significant weather shifts, weight is a positive for beating through waves. Having a limited market, I’d focus on condition of rig, power plant and amenities.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,820
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Is this the displacement range you would recommend?
I look at displacement not from the nature of boat weight but what can I carry on the boat. Thinking about it as a dog sled, you need a certain amount of capacity to carry the needed supplies, if you hope too survive on the trail in the outback

In the waters you will be sailing, you will want to get a hull that is solid and hopefully well insulated.

You will want a space with adequate fuel and water storage. You will need a reliable source of onboard heat.

All of these basic needs come in a hull shape that displaces the water and keeps the boat keel down and dry (sort of).

The water north of the 49 th parallel can get a bit choppy. I would look for a boat that is sea kindly.

KG's comments about the keel design is relevant to the type of waters. When you set up a cruising boat on a tack, youu want the boat too balance. To be able to sail on the water with minimum input at the helm. A full keel boat (with lots of watered surface and structural "weight") will practically sail herself in a straight line when the sail trim is balanced. This makes an easier passage for the crew.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,752
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Thanks, Dave. Excellent info. The boats I've been looking at fall within the 2nd category, I believe. Can you tell me if the ballast/ displacement ratio is a strong consideration. It seems to me that if the boat is stiffer it won't be as tender and less likely for a novice skipper to lose control of.
Tenderness is all about hull form first, sailing skills second. New sailors are often fearful of capsizing and heel, especially when the boat rounds up. The solution to those issues is reducing sail early, learning to live at 20°, and learning to anticipate conditions that induce rounding up and heeling.

Tenderness is also know as stability. There are 2 basic forms of hull stability, initial stability and final stability. Hull forms that have good initial stability will have poor final stability and vice versa. Good final stability is more important than good initial stability. More ballast will not improve the final stability of a hull with good initial stability.

Boats with good initial stability tend to have very flat bottoms and sharp chines. The clearest example of this hull form are the old aluminum Grumman canoes. The bottoms were flat and the chines had a radius of about 4 inches. Step on those canoes and they barely moved, some of the old ads showed people standing on the gunwales to show how stable and untippy they were. However, once they tipped to a critical point, they would flip in a split second.

Racing canoes and canoes designed to cover long distances, tended to have V shaped bottoms that rounded very gently to the gunwales. Initially these boats are very tippy, however, as the boat heeled over the stability increased. Way way back, I used to race in long distance white water canoe races. We would often make sharp turns and lean the boat over and put the gunwales on the water, because of the good final stability, it was more stable on its side than its bottom, we never capsized. Can't do that in a flat bottom aluminum canoe.

Sailboat hulls are no different, hulls with a V form will heel quicker and further than hulls with U or flat bottoms with a smaller chance of capsizing. In the past few decades there has been a lot work on sailboat stability. Look for information on the Stability Index, more important than weight to displacement.

Weight will make a difference if the hull forms are identical. If we were to build 2 identical hulls, one with a solid fiberglass hull and one with a balsa cored hull. The lighter cored hull would have more initial stability than the solid hull, but not that much more.

There is not much difference between an 8K # boat and a 10K # boat. A 200 lb person represents jus 2.5% of the weight of a 8K boat and just 2% of a 10K boat, just not much difference. In practice a person stepping on the boat will tip the boat a noticeable about for either boats. Doubling the boat weight will make a difference. On the Sabre 30 we owned, the boat would tip a bit when my wife would step aboard. On our Sabre 362 at ~15K # she can get on and off the boat and I don't notice it. If I lightly step on the boat, it barely budges. Weight does make a difference, however in the boats in the size range you are looking at, just not all that much, hull form is more important and a bigger factor in tenderness/stability.

Weight will make a difference in responsiveness. All other things being equal, a lighter boat will accelerate faster than a heavier boat; a heavier boat will carry its momentum longer. When sailing against wind and waves the heavier boat will tend to plow through the wave in a softer fashion than the lighter boat, which may pound more and be more jarring. Being lighter, it will accelerate faster after slowing down in the wave than the heavier boat. Some of this can be mitigated by how the boat is sailed in the waves and the hull form. A boat with a flat forefoot will slam a lot, think of your hand slapping water. A boat with more of a V form in the fore foot will ride more smoothly, think of hitting the water with the edge of your hand.

The point of all this, is weight is important, but one of many factors to consider. Even more at issue is the complexity of hull design, as one characteristic is changed all the other characteristics will change. There is no perfect boat.

A good place to get a picture of various hull forms is a good canoe and kayak shop. Look at how the hulls are shaped for different purposes. Sailboats are the same, hull shape on canoes and kayaks is easier to see and understand.
 
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May 7, 2012
1,523
Hunter e33 Maple Bay, BC
But to answer the basic question, for cruising in SE Alaska I think I’d choose a fairly heavy yacht, like a Baba 30 (12,500# displacement) for example, but there should be other possibilities. I noticed a Baba for sale on Yachworld.com located in Portland, OR. When you’re “out in it” you’ll appreciate the comfort and stability of the heavier yacht. It’s not Southern California up there!!
It has been a while since I read about Baba sailboats and after refreshing my memory I think @Kings Gambit is right on the money. If all else ticks the boxes, I would take into account a heating system install, as suggested by several members, in my offer price and enjoy your trip up the inside passage in June.

Practical Sailor - Baba 30

Yachtworld - Baba30 - $50k

2nd Link Edited
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,752
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
It has been a while since I read about Baba sailboats and after refreshing my memory I think @Kings Gambit is right on the money. If all else ticks the boxes, I would take into account a heating system install, as suggested by several members, in my offer price and enjoy your trip up the inside passage in June.

Practical Sailor - Baba 30
Yachtworld - Baba30
The Baba 30, Bristol Channel Cutter and similar boats would work for the described conditions, over looking the OP's budget. One of the boats he mentioned, the San Juan 28 is a $10K to $20K boat, the Baba 30 is a $50K boat.
 
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higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
For the conditions you describe you do not want a light weight boat like a San Jaun. You also do not want an outboard. You do not indicate your budget. I like a Catalina 30, but its beam may pound into the chop you speak of. A narrower boat will be more comfortable plowing through chop. A Contessa 26 is an older boat, well built, and may be a good choice if your budget is limited.
 

PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,354
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
My brother sails a J/30 out of Juneau and enjoys it quite a bit despite the light air they are stuck with during much of the season. A J/29 is a good bit lighter and might perform better in light air, but you can't stand up down below the way you can in the J/30.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,752
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
My brother sails a J/30 out of Juneau and enjoys it quite a bit despite the light air they are stuck with during much of the season. A J/29 is a good bit lighter and might perform better in light air, but you can't stand up down below the way you can in the J/30.
A J30 will sail well in light air, it was designed. as a club racer and has a cored hull. In short steep chop going up wind it will be a bit wet.