Hello, all, My boat, a 20' Vivacity twin/bilge keel, rounds up into the wind when it gets overpowered. When this problem occurs the rudder is completely unresponsive untilt he boat is pointed way up into the wind. I've tried a few different sail combinations like, smaller jib and main and with only the main, but still have the same problem. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance. Bob
Boat rounds up in gusts
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gust
You didnt say how big the gust are. Alot of times you can just let the main sail go to dump out the air this should do it an reefing works. Let the boat heal an just pull hard on the tiller.
You didnt say how big the gust are. Alot of times you can just let the main sail go to dump out the air this should do it an reefing works. Let the boat heal an just pull hard on the tiller.
RE: Boat turns up wind
I would estimate that the gusts are in the high teens(mph), while the sustained winds are around 10mph. Unfortunately, the rudder becomes completely useless when this happens, so riding it out isn't an option. Even though the sustained winds wouldn't call for it, I think I'll try reefing the main next time.
I would estimate that the gusts are in the high teens(mph), while the sustained winds are around 10mph. Unfortunately, the rudder becomes completely useless when this happens, so riding it out isn't an option. Even though the sustained winds wouldn't call for it, I think I'll try reefing the main next time.
Oh, by the way - all sailboats round up into
the wind when they get overpowered. The only difference is in how much wind it takes to get them there. Then everybody reduces sail.
the wind when they get overpowered. The only difference is in how much wind it takes to get them there. Then everybody reduces sail.
Another trick
is to look for the gusts, count down as they approach (5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1) and steer the boat up into the gust as it hits, holding it briefly, then steer down on the backside of the gust as it eases off. Since it will be hitting you almost head on, it won't heel the boat much, you'll have more control, and you can keep your speed up by 'riding' the back of the gust. The more your boat heels, the less your rudder acts to turn it and instead tries to lift the stern out of the water - that's one reason why it "loads up" and requires more effort.
is to look for the gusts, count down as they approach (5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1) and steer the boat up into the gust as it hits, holding it briefly, then steer down on the backside of the gust as it eases off. Since it will be hitting you almost head on, it won't heel the boat much, you'll have more control, and you can keep your speed up by 'riding' the back of the gust. The more your boat heels, the less your rudder acts to turn it and instead tries to lift the stern out of the water - that's one reason why it "loads up" and requires more effort.
There *may* be a way to resolve this problem
The fundamental problem is that the "rounding up" forces exterted on the sail overpower the opposing directional forces set by the rudder and keel. In short, you've got a real bad case of "weather helm" and the twin bilge keel design (particularly when sailing upwind and only one of the two keel is providing directional stability) would seem to make the problem worse. While I don't know the set up of your rig, I would think that the following adjustments would reduce the boat's tendency to round up: 1. First of all (perhaps most important of all) you need to better "balance" the boat's *combined* center of effort. Weather helm is caused when the *combined* center of effort (i.e. the center of effort between the jib and mainsail) is too far aft of the boat's "pivot point" (i.e. center of lateral resistance). In short, you need to move the combined center of effort FORWARD. To do this, you must reduce the power of the mainsail and increase the power of the jib. 2. To depower the mainsail, increase tension on the outhaul, main halyard, cunningham and boom vang. The point is to reduce the amount of draft depth or "belly" in the main by making the sail as progressively flat as possible. A flat sail does not generate as much lift and hence is less powerful than a full bellied sail. 3. Next I would power up the jib by moving the jibsheet fairleads far forward to give the jib greater draft depth. 4. When a gust appears to approach, I would be ready to further de-power the mainsail, by allowing the traveler to drop to leeward, decreasing the mainsail's "angle of attack" to the apparent wind. If dropping the traveler is not sufficient, further de-power the mainsail by letting out the mainsheet, but make sure to maintain tension on the boomvang so the sail remains relatively flat. Hopefully, these suggestions will give you more tools to help control the demon of "weather helm". If you've tried these tools, and your still not able to balance the rig fore and aft, you'll need to take more drastic measures such as reefing the main much earlier to more substantially reduce the sail area aft of the "pivot point" of the boat. Additionally, you might want to consider going to a rigger to see if the forestay and backstay are properly tensioned. Food for thought.
The fundamental problem is that the "rounding up" forces exterted on the sail overpower the opposing directional forces set by the rudder and keel. In short, you've got a real bad case of "weather helm" and the twin bilge keel design (particularly when sailing upwind and only one of the two keel is providing directional stability) would seem to make the problem worse. While I don't know the set up of your rig, I would think that the following adjustments would reduce the boat's tendency to round up: 1. First of all (perhaps most important of all) you need to better "balance" the boat's *combined* center of effort. Weather helm is caused when the *combined* center of effort (i.e. the center of effort between the jib and mainsail) is too far aft of the boat's "pivot point" (i.e. center of lateral resistance). In short, you need to move the combined center of effort FORWARD. To do this, you must reduce the power of the mainsail and increase the power of the jib. 2. To depower the mainsail, increase tension on the outhaul, main halyard, cunningham and boom vang. The point is to reduce the amount of draft depth or "belly" in the main by making the sail as progressively flat as possible. A flat sail does not generate as much lift and hence is less powerful than a full bellied sail. 3. Next I would power up the jib by moving the jibsheet fairleads far forward to give the jib greater draft depth. 4. When a gust appears to approach, I would be ready to further de-power the mainsail, by allowing the traveler to drop to leeward, decreasing the mainsail's "angle of attack" to the apparent wind. If dropping the traveler is not sufficient, further de-power the mainsail by letting out the mainsheet, but make sure to maintain tension on the boomvang so the sail remains relatively flat. Hopefully, these suggestions will give you more tools to help control the demon of "weather helm". If you've tried these tools, and your still not able to balance the rig fore and aft, you'll need to take more drastic measures such as reefing the main much earlier to more substantially reduce the sail area aft of the "pivot point" of the boat. Additionally, you might want to consider going to a rigger to see if the forestay and backstay are properly tensioned. Food for thought.
Good Advice, and
Rick gives some good advice below - particularly in his point #2 - flattening the main. From what I have read, a mainsail that is "blown out" - i.e. lost it's ability to really hold its designed shape - will be very difficult to flatten - too much belly (Ha, I should talk....). Inability to move that center of effort forward will greatly contribute to your weather helm, and lead to slower sailing overall. Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Rick gives some good advice below - particularly in his point #2 - flattening the main. From what I have read, a mainsail that is "blown out" - i.e. lost it's ability to really hold its designed shape - will be very difficult to flatten - too much belly (Ha, I should talk....). Inability to move that center of effort forward will greatly contribute to your weather helm, and lead to slower sailing overall. Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Thanks for the great suggestions
All of your ideas are great. It makes total sense that flattening out the rig will work. I'm pretty sure that I'll need to replace my main in order to do this since it's completely "bagged out", but it will make sailing a lot more enjoyable. So my new question is, "Any recommendations on where to buy a new main in the Northeast?" Thanks again for all of your suggestions. Bob
All of your ideas are great. It makes total sense that flattening out the rig will work. I'm pretty sure that I'll need to replace my main in order to do this since it's completely "bagged out", but it will make sailing a lot more enjoyable. So my new question is, "Any recommendations on where to buy a new main in the Northeast?" Thanks again for all of your suggestions. Bob
Well, as it turns out . . .
I do write for a living, in a manner of speaking. I'm a bankruptcy attorney in Boston and spend a good deal of time writing. But, I definitely prefer sailing to brief-writing.
I do write for a living, in a manner of speaking. I'm a bankruptcy attorney in Boston and spend a good deal of time writing. But, I definitely prefer sailing to brief-writing.
Where to buy a new mainsail
I don't know where Granite Bay is in Conn, but I keep my boat in Branford, and the guy I have used is Clark Bassett at Kappa Sails in Westbrook. Clark sold me my CDI roller reefer, modified my jib to fit and also sewed the UV shield onto the sail. The job was done when he said it would be, and his charges were reasonable. He was also available to answer questions by phone as I installed the roller the first time. I also priced out a new suit of sails with him; I didn't pull the trigger because I couldn't afford it. He is definetly more expensive than the internet sites (I seem to remember about 30% more), but probably worth it. He makes the sails right there and uses American-made sailcloth. Personally, I like buying from someone I can talk to face to face, ask questions, and have them available for problems or advice. I think its almost always worth the extra money.
I don't know where Granite Bay is in Conn, but I keep my boat in Branford, and the guy I have used is Clark Bassett at Kappa Sails in Westbrook. Clark sold me my CDI roller reefer, modified my jib to fit and also sewed the UV shield onto the sail. The job was done when he said it would be, and his charges were reasonable. He was also available to answer questions by phone as I installed the roller the first time. I also priced out a new suit of sails with him; I didn't pull the trigger because I couldn't afford it. He is definetly more expensive than the internet sites (I seem to remember about 30% more), but probably worth it. He makes the sails right there and uses American-made sailcloth. Personally, I like buying from someone I can talk to face to face, ask questions, and have them available for problems or advice. I think its almost always worth the extra money.
Where to buy a new main sail
Mike, we're neighbors. Granite Bay, also known as Page's Cove, is on Shore Dr. in Branford. I keep my boat out in front of Killams Point on a mooring. I know what you mean about dealing with people face-to-face. Thanks for the good reference on Kappa. I'll give them a call. Bob
Mike, we're neighbors. Granite Bay, also known as Page's Cove, is on Shore Dr. in Branford. I keep my boat out in front of Killams Point on a mooring. I know what you mean about dealing with people face-to-face. Thanks for the good reference on Kappa. I'll give them a call. Bob
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