Let's say you're interested in a sailboat and to put some ranges on the numbers let's say 27'-40', $40k-100k, cruiser/racer, racer/cruiser, 5-25yrs old, nothing extravagent but not a project boat (at least on first glance). Ok, now let's say that you offer something less than the asking price, say 5-10% less, and get an acceptance contingent on survey. Now to the question, what is normal/customary (I know, many variations, no real normal) use of the survey results with respect to accepting a boat 1) Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer. OR 2) Every boat has defects, the survey will show these and it is expected that the agreed priced will be negotiated down further after the survey. OR 3) The survey results should only cause a price renegotiation if major structural/safety issues are discovered that could not be found by casual inspection, for instance if the boat was inspected on the hard by launched for survey. OR 4) ?? By casual buyer I mean anything beyond raw newbie but well short of professional surveyor with years of experience. I know that every boat is different, every deal is different. I was just wondering what people here think is the best practice when going through the purchase process.
Boat purchase negotiation
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Let's say you're interested in a sailboat and to put some ranges on the numbers let's say 27'-40', $40k-100k, cruiser/racer, racer/cruiser, 5-25yrs old, nothing extravagent but not a project boat (at least on first glance). Ok, now let's say that you offer something less than the asking price, say 5-10% less, and get an acceptance contingent on survey. Now to the question, what is normal/customary (I know, many variations, no real normal) use of the survey results with respect to accepting a boat 1) Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer. OR 2) Every boat has defects, the survey will show these and it is expected that the agreed priced will be negotiated down further after the survey. OR 3) The survey results should only cause a price renegotiation if major structural/safety issues are discovered that could not be found by casual inspection, for instance if the boat was inspected on the hard by launched for survey. OR 4) ?? By casual buyer I mean anything beyond raw newbie but well short of professional surveyor with years of experience. I know that every boat is different, every deal is different. I was just wondering what people here think is the best practice when going through the purchase process.
Broker
In some ways I view a broker in the same light as a used car salesman, but this is one area where a broker can save your bacon. Assume that you put up some earnest money,lets assume 10%,with an individual, on a boat. Final deal to depend on a survey of the boat, and the survey finds a major structural problem. Regardless of what he told you, an individual may or may not want to return your earnest money. A broker on the other hand, puts your deposit into escrow, and if the boat fails a survey, is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to get it back. And by the way, if I was a serious buyer with cash in hand, I would never make a first offer of more than 75% of the asking price. Probably won't get accepted, but you never know, and you can always go up, but if you offer 100%, you can not then back off that price.
In some ways I view a broker in the same light as a used car salesman, but this is one area where a broker can save your bacon. Assume that you put up some earnest money,lets assume 10%,with an individual, on a boat. Final deal to depend on a survey of the boat, and the survey finds a major structural problem. Regardless of what he told you, an individual may or may not want to return your earnest money. A broker on the other hand, puts your deposit into escrow, and if the boat fails a survey, is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to get it back. And by the way, if I was a serious buyer with cash in hand, I would never make a first offer of more than 75% of the asking price. Probably won't get accepted, but you never know, and you can always go up, but if you offer 100%, you can not then back off that price.
Broker
In some ways I view a broker in the same light as a used car salesman, but this is one area where a broker can save your bacon. Assume that you put up some earnest money,lets assume 10%,with an individual, on a boat. Final deal to depend on a survey of the boat, and the survey finds a major structural problem. Regardless of what he told you, an individual may or may not want to return your earnest money. A broker on the other hand, puts your deposit into escrow, and if the boat fails a survey, is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to get it back. And by the way, if I was a serious buyer with cash in hand, I would never make a first offer of more than 75% of the asking price. Probably won't get accepted, but you never know, and you can always go up, but if you offer 100%, you can not then back off that price.
In some ways I view a broker in the same light as a used car salesman, but this is one area where a broker can save your bacon. Assume that you put up some earnest money,lets assume 10%,with an individual, on a boat. Final deal to depend on a survey of the boat, and the survey finds a major structural problem. Regardless of what he told you, an individual may or may not want to return your earnest money. A broker on the other hand, puts your deposit into escrow, and if the boat fails a survey, is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to get it back. And by the way, if I was a serious buyer with cash in hand, I would never make a first offer of more than 75% of the asking price. Probably won't get accepted, but you never know, and you can always go up, but if you offer 100%, you can not then back off that price.
Survey: Deal or No deal.
" An acceptance contingent on survey" is a 'yay or nay' thing. Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't normally be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer but the buyer ought to be aware of, unless of course, the problems are very serious and expensive. In this case the survey becomes a deal breaker. Now you and the seller are at a point wherein you dont want to buy the boat that he wants to sell. You are off the hook which means you can go home and look for another boat or both of you can renegotiate. A good broker wants to make the deal work so he can get his commission. He will usually guess at who is in the better position to give in more than the other. He will work both ends toward the middle. If the problems are really that serious, he will probably tell you to run, not walk. Another consideration is insurance. The insurance company will want to see the survey. The survey may determine if the boat is even insurable. In most cases, including my own, the survey led the seller to give in on some stuff that was supposed to be in working condition and wasnt. The seller had it repaired at the sellers expense prior to the closing and also reduce the price by a few hundred bucks. The surveyors fee was well worth the money. Tony B
" An acceptance contingent on survey" is a 'yay or nay' thing. Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't normally be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer but the buyer ought to be aware of, unless of course, the problems are very serious and expensive. In this case the survey becomes a deal breaker. Now you and the seller are at a point wherein you dont want to buy the boat that he wants to sell. You are off the hook which means you can go home and look for another boat or both of you can renegotiate. A good broker wants to make the deal work so he can get his commission. He will usually guess at who is in the better position to give in more than the other. He will work both ends toward the middle. If the problems are really that serious, he will probably tell you to run, not walk. Another consideration is insurance. The insurance company will want to see the survey. The survey may determine if the boat is even insurable. In most cases, including my own, the survey led the seller to give in on some stuff that was supposed to be in working condition and wasnt. The seller had it repaired at the sellers expense prior to the closing and also reduce the price by a few hundred bucks. The surveyors fee was well worth the money. Tony B
Survey: Deal or No deal.
" An acceptance contingent on survey" is a 'yay or nay' thing. Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't normally be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer but the buyer ought to be aware of, unless of course, the problems are very serious and expensive. In this case the survey becomes a deal breaker. Now you and the seller are at a point wherein you dont want to buy the boat that he wants to sell. You are off the hook which means you can go home and look for another boat or both of you can renegotiate. A good broker wants to make the deal work so he can get his commission. He will usually guess at who is in the better position to give in more than the other. He will work both ends toward the middle. If the problems are really that serious, he will probably tell you to run, not walk. Another consideration is insurance. The insurance company will want to see the survey. The survey may determine if the boat is even insurable. In most cases, including my own, the survey led the seller to give in on some stuff that was supposed to be in working condition and wasnt. The seller had it repaired at the sellers expense prior to the closing and also reduce the price by a few hundred bucks. The surveyors fee was well worth the money. Tony B
" An acceptance contingent on survey" is a 'yay or nay' thing. Every boat has some defects, the survey will show these but shouldn't normally be used to further adjust the price. The agreed price is with the understanding that the survey will find some problems not already obvious to the casual buyer but the buyer ought to be aware of, unless of course, the problems are very serious and expensive. In this case the survey becomes a deal breaker. Now you and the seller are at a point wherein you dont want to buy the boat that he wants to sell. You are off the hook which means you can go home and look for another boat or both of you can renegotiate. A good broker wants to make the deal work so he can get his commission. He will usually guess at who is in the better position to give in more than the other. He will work both ends toward the middle. If the problems are really that serious, he will probably tell you to run, not walk. Another consideration is insurance. The insurance company will want to see the survey. The survey may determine if the boat is even insurable. In most cases, including my own, the survey led the seller to give in on some stuff that was supposed to be in working condition and wasnt. The seller had it repaired at the sellers expense prior to the closing and also reduce the price by a few hundred bucks. The surveyors fee was well worth the money. Tony B
In home sales an inspection is standard practice
and faults are expected to be corrected or compensated for. Now these don't include cosmetic faults that will probably be dealt with as the new owners decorate as they choose. Light switches that don't turn on a light must be corrected. Plumbing faults, broken built-in components are always a repair or compensate item. The condition of the roof is noted but if it isn't leaking is simply a point of negotiation. The list goes on and on and for a boat that isn't to be a project I would think that the same applies.
and faults are expected to be corrected or compensated for. Now these don't include cosmetic faults that will probably be dealt with as the new owners decorate as they choose. Light switches that don't turn on a light must be corrected. Plumbing faults, broken built-in components are always a repair or compensate item. The condition of the roof is noted but if it isn't leaking is simply a point of negotiation. The list goes on and on and for a boat that isn't to be a project I would think that the same applies.
In home sales an inspection is standard practice
and faults are expected to be corrected or compensated for. Now these don't include cosmetic faults that will probably be dealt with as the new owners decorate as they choose. Light switches that don't turn on a light must be corrected. Plumbing faults, broken built-in components are always a repair or compensate item. The condition of the roof is noted but if it isn't leaking is simply a point of negotiation. The list goes on and on and for a boat that isn't to be a project I would think that the same applies.
and faults are expected to be corrected or compensated for. Now these don't include cosmetic faults that will probably be dealt with as the new owners decorate as they choose. Light switches that don't turn on a light must be corrected. Plumbing faults, broken built-in components are always a repair or compensate item. The condition of the roof is noted but if it isn't leaking is simply a point of negotiation. The list goes on and on and for a boat that isn't to be a project I would think that the same applies.
Just in Case ....
Just in case you want an additional "escape" from the contract add that you must have an acceptable survey and SEA TRIAL. The all you have to say is I don't like the way this vessels handles. A good broker will try hard to avoid adding this to the contract but it your money. You may need an escape if a better deal comes up after you sign the form
Just in case you want an additional "escape" from the contract add that you must have an acceptable survey and SEA TRIAL. The all you have to say is I don't like the way this vessels handles. A good broker will try hard to avoid adding this to the contract but it your money. You may need an escape if a better deal comes up after you sign the form
Just in Case ....
Just in case you want an additional "escape" from the contract add that you must have an acceptable survey and SEA TRIAL. The all you have to say is I don't like the way this vessels handles. A good broker will try hard to avoid adding this to the contract but it your money. You may need an escape if a better deal comes up after you sign the form
Just in case you want an additional "escape" from the contract add that you must have an acceptable survey and SEA TRIAL. The all you have to say is I don't like the way this vessels handles. A good broker will try hard to avoid adding this to the contract but it your money. You may need an escape if a better deal comes up after you sign the form
The customary is that items showing up on a
survey other than those disclosed by seller or noticed and discussed by buyer would give cause to cancellation or renegotiation. Should the magnitude of a perceived previously discussed fault should significantly change as a result of a survey then the offer can change. A purchase/sale agreement presuposes dealing in good faith but a survey does give the buyer the option to back out of a deal at any time at his expense. On the other hand the seller is not obliged to make any concessions as a result of the survey. Used boats are sold "as is" and there are no obligations from seller to buyer except those agreed upon.
survey other than those disclosed by seller or noticed and discussed by buyer would give cause to cancellation or renegotiation. Should the magnitude of a perceived previously discussed fault should significantly change as a result of a survey then the offer can change. A purchase/sale agreement presuposes dealing in good faith but a survey does give the buyer the option to back out of a deal at any time at his expense. On the other hand the seller is not obliged to make any concessions as a result of the survey. Used boats are sold "as is" and there are no obligations from seller to buyer except those agreed upon.
The customary is that items showing up on a
survey other than those disclosed by seller or noticed and discussed by buyer would give cause to cancellation or renegotiation. Should the magnitude of a perceived previously discussed fault should significantly change as a result of a survey then the offer can change. A purchase/sale agreement presuposes dealing in good faith but a survey does give the buyer the option to back out of a deal at any time at his expense. On the other hand the seller is not obliged to make any concessions as a result of the survey. Used boats are sold "as is" and there are no obligations from seller to buyer except those agreed upon.
survey other than those disclosed by seller or noticed and discussed by buyer would give cause to cancellation or renegotiation. Should the magnitude of a perceived previously discussed fault should significantly change as a result of a survey then the offer can change. A purchase/sale agreement presuposes dealing in good faith but a survey does give the buyer the option to back out of a deal at any time at his expense. On the other hand the seller is not obliged to make any concessions as a result of the survey. Used boats are sold "as is" and there are no obligations from seller to buyer except those agreed upon.
On my last purchas
my first offer was 21% less then the asking price, subject to Survey's ( plural, I had 3 done) and Sea Trial. Upon reviewing the evidance presented in the Hull, Machicianal,and rigging surveys I droped my offer by another 11%. The offer was rejected but counter offered higher... I walked, 3 days later they excepted... I almost did not!! The Broker called me and asked if I bought boats for a living.
my first offer was 21% less then the asking price, subject to Survey's ( plural, I had 3 done) and Sea Trial. Upon reviewing the evidance presented in the Hull, Machicianal,and rigging surveys I droped my offer by another 11%. The offer was rejected but counter offered higher... I walked, 3 days later they excepted... I almost did not!! The Broker called me and asked if I bought boats for a living.
On my last purchas
my first offer was 21% less then the asking price, subject to Survey's ( plural, I had 3 done) and Sea Trial. Upon reviewing the evidance presented in the Hull, Machicianal,and rigging surveys I droped my offer by another 11%. The offer was rejected but counter offered higher... I walked, 3 days later they excepted... I almost did not!! The Broker called me and asked if I bought boats for a living.
my first offer was 21% less then the asking price, subject to Survey's ( plural, I had 3 done) and Sea Trial. Upon reviewing the evidance presented in the Hull, Machicianal,and rigging surveys I droped my offer by another 11%. The offer was rejected but counter offered higher... I walked, 3 days later they excepted... I almost did not!! The Broker called me and asked if I bought boats for a living.
Benny and Ross have it right.. plus
"Subject to survey" indeed makes it easy to back out of a deal and get your deposit back if there is something previously unknown that the potential buyer feels should be repaired or renegotiated (but not what you paid for the survey). It is almost always an easy escape clause, as is the sea trial: if you don't like the way the boat handles, or almost anything else, you could say no on that basis as well. I suppose if you were too much of a nitpicker, someone could take you to small claims court, or hire a lawyer for bigger bucks, but generally the buyer has a lot of leverage. One other issue: if a survey turns up a problem, say a broken instrument, the parties can agree the seller will repair it. BUT make sure you have some way in writing to hold them accountable. Selling brokers are not well known for following up on what they see as minor issues. The nit I would pick is that all sales are not necessarily "as is" unless both parties agree to that, and there are no caveats. Older boats are often sold "as is" and frequently the buyer will pass on a survey if confident in their own skills. Me, I paid for a good surveyor and would do it again. Sanders s/v Good News
"Subject to survey" indeed makes it easy to back out of a deal and get your deposit back if there is something previously unknown that the potential buyer feels should be repaired or renegotiated (but not what you paid for the survey). It is almost always an easy escape clause, as is the sea trial: if you don't like the way the boat handles, or almost anything else, you could say no on that basis as well. I suppose if you were too much of a nitpicker, someone could take you to small claims court, or hire a lawyer for bigger bucks, but generally the buyer has a lot of leverage. One other issue: if a survey turns up a problem, say a broken instrument, the parties can agree the seller will repair it. BUT make sure you have some way in writing to hold them accountable. Selling brokers are not well known for following up on what they see as minor issues. The nit I would pick is that all sales are not necessarily "as is" unless both parties agree to that, and there are no caveats. Older boats are often sold "as is" and frequently the buyer will pass on a survey if confident in their own skills. Me, I paid for a good surveyor and would do it again. Sanders s/v Good News
Benny and Ross have it right.. plus
"Subject to survey" indeed makes it easy to back out of a deal and get your deposit back if there is something previously unknown that the potential buyer feels should be repaired or renegotiated (but not what you paid for the survey). It is almost always an easy escape clause, as is the sea trial: if you don't like the way the boat handles, or almost anything else, you could say no on that basis as well. I suppose if you were too much of a nitpicker, someone could take you to small claims court, or hire a lawyer for bigger bucks, but generally the buyer has a lot of leverage. One other issue: if a survey turns up a problem, say a broken instrument, the parties can agree the seller will repair it. BUT make sure you have some way in writing to hold them accountable. Selling brokers are not well known for following up on what they see as minor issues. The nit I would pick is that all sales are not necessarily "as is" unless both parties agree to that, and there are no caveats. Older boats are often sold "as is" and frequently the buyer will pass on a survey if confident in their own skills. Me, I paid for a good surveyor and would do it again. Sanders s/v Good News
"Subject to survey" indeed makes it easy to back out of a deal and get your deposit back if there is something previously unknown that the potential buyer feels should be repaired or renegotiated (but not what you paid for the survey). It is almost always an easy escape clause, as is the sea trial: if you don't like the way the boat handles, or almost anything else, you could say no on that basis as well. I suppose if you were too much of a nitpicker, someone could take you to small claims court, or hire a lawyer for bigger bucks, but generally the buyer has a lot of leverage. One other issue: if a survey turns up a problem, say a broken instrument, the parties can agree the seller will repair it. BUT make sure you have some way in writing to hold them accountable. Selling brokers are not well known for following up on what they see as minor issues. The nit I would pick is that all sales are not necessarily "as is" unless both parties agree to that, and there are no caveats. Older boats are often sold "as is" and frequently the buyer will pass on a survey if confident in their own skills. Me, I paid for a good surveyor and would do it again. Sanders s/v Good News
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