Boat purchase negotiation

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sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

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Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Survey says.....

Having a survey is not necessarily an easy way out. Just because you dont like the way the boat handles is not reason to stop the offer/acceptance process. You should have had your sea trial PRIOR to offer. Then the surveyor sea trials the boat on the way to the yard for the 'out of water' part of the survey. If the survey turns up minor problems the seller will usually take care of it either by fixing or reducing price, but not necessarily. This can be negotiated. The seller may not have the money. If the survey values the boat at 25K and the owner accepted your offer of only $20K I dont think that you will have an out because of a few hundred dollars in repairs. And the seller wont need a lawyer if you want out, you will. Remember the broker has your deposit and if it appears that you just want out, you may be out of luck. The point being is not to play lawyer because you have a survey. The 'survey ' clause can be a double edged sword. Think of it as a tool to make sure that you are getting your money's worth and that you are not buying a basket case. Dont think of it as 'an easy out'. Only a rip-off artist would think of it as an easy out because he is not going onto this in good faith. Use a tool with its intended purpose. Remember...you are not buying a new boat. IMHO Tony B
 
sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

.
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Survey says.....

Having a survey is not necessarily an easy way out. Just because you dont like the way the boat handles is not reason to stop the offer/acceptance process. You should have had your sea trial PRIOR to offer. Then the surveyor sea trials the boat on the way to the yard for the 'out of water' part of the survey. If the survey turns up minor problems the seller will usually take care of it either by fixing or reducing price, but not necessarily. This can be negotiated. The seller may not have the money. If the survey values the boat at 25K and the owner accepted your offer of only $20K I dont think that you will have an out because of a few hundred dollars in repairs. And the seller wont need a lawyer if you want out, you will. Remember the broker has your deposit and if it appears that you just want out, you may be out of luck. The point being is not to play lawyer because you have a survey. The 'survey ' clause can be a double edged sword. Think of it as a tool to make sure that you are getting your money's worth and that you are not buying a basket case. Dont think of it as 'an easy out'. Only a rip-off artist would think of it as an easy out because he is not going onto this in good faith. Use a tool with its intended purpose. Remember...you are not buying a new boat. IMHO Tony B
 
T

T37 Phil

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Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Regional issues

Florida and California seem to have stricter laws governing the sale of boats. I have seen contracts listing separate contingincy deadlines for insurance, financing, sea trial and survey. Rejecting a boat based on any of these contingincies should be straightforward if a reputable broker is involved. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on how a survey should be used. It also seems that most responses are from the buyers point of view, as I orginally intended. As a seller, when you arrive at an agreed upon price, do you expect to renegotiate following a survey? Is that just part of the process?
 
T

T37 Phil

.
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Regional issues

Florida and California seem to have stricter laws governing the sale of boats. I have seen contracts listing separate contingincy deadlines for insurance, financing, sea trial and survey. Rejecting a boat based on any of these contingincies should be straightforward if a reputable broker is involved. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on how a survey should be used. It also seems that most responses are from the buyers point of view, as I orginally intended. As a seller, when you arrive at an agreed upon price, do you expect to renegotiate following a survey? Is that just part of the process?
 
sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

.
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Phil

Phil You just answered your own question. All except for ..." As a seller, when you arrive at an agreed upon price, do you expect to renegotiate following a survey? Is that just part of the proces." As a seller I would probably expect to pick up a few items that were not anticipated, but not very much. If the buyer was to try to make an issue of it, I would tell the broker to just kill the deal and let the buyer go. The buyer has to keep in mind that this is afterall a used boat. IMHO Tony B P.S. My last purchase was about a year and a half ago and the contract DID list separate contingincy deadlines for insurance, sea trial and survey. This is to protect the seller from someone dragging on the process to an unreasonable period of time in which case it ties up the seller. Bottom line is that both parties should be reasonable in their expectations.
 
sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

.
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Phil

Phil You just answered your own question. All except for ..." As a seller, when you arrive at an agreed upon price, do you expect to renegotiate following a survey? Is that just part of the proces." As a seller I would probably expect to pick up a few items that were not anticipated, but not very much. If the buyer was to try to make an issue of it, I would tell the broker to just kill the deal and let the buyer go. The buyer has to keep in mind that this is afterall a used boat. IMHO Tony B P.S. My last purchase was about a year and a half ago and the contract DID list separate contingincy deadlines for insurance, sea trial and survey. This is to protect the seller from someone dragging on the process to an unreasonable period of time in which case it ties up the seller. Bottom line is that both parties should be reasonable in their expectations.
 
Stillraining

Stillraining

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Dec 8, 2007
478
Irwin 41 CC Ketch LaConner WA
Phil

The way I look at this is. If you as a seller go the the expence of having the boat surveyed right before the boat is listed then it's prety much a take it or leave it deal. Very few sellers want to do that. Im guesseng because they dont want to know all thats wrong with their boat and have to repair it. So as a buyer we are taking the action nessary to protect ourselves as best we can. That survey is not even made availibal to the seller to look at if you dont want it to be. But you and your broker ( never use the same one as the seller ) will have the facts to use as a further negociating tool. I bought my boat in California by the way and yes I had to get everything compleated in 10 days. Something to consider logisticlly if your having to buy air fair, schedule haulout, sea trial and all. I also agree with Tony that the seller has the finial decision to except you offer or not if your being too nit-picky and tell you to take a hike. But I bet Tony take better care of his boat then alot of people so he knows what he has. A lot of sellers have precieved value not actual value in there minds.;)
 
Stillraining

Stillraining

.
Dec 8, 2007
478
Irwin 41 CC Ketch LaConner WA
Phil

The way I look at this is. If you as a seller go the the expence of having the boat surveyed right before the boat is listed then it's prety much a take it or leave it deal. Very few sellers want to do that. Im guesseng because they dont want to know all thats wrong with their boat and have to repair it. So as a buyer we are taking the action nessary to protect ourselves as best we can. That survey is not even made availibal to the seller to look at if you dont want it to be. But you and your broker ( never use the same one as the seller ) will have the facts to use as a further negociating tool. I bought my boat in California by the way and yes I had to get everything compleated in 10 days. Something to consider logisticlly if your having to buy air fair, schedule haulout, sea trial and all. I also agree with Tony that the seller has the finial decision to except you offer or not if your being too nit-picky and tell you to take a hike. But I bet Tony take better care of his boat then alot of people so he knows what he has. A lot of sellers have precieved value not actual value in there minds.;)
 
Brian D

Brian D

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Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Stillraining...

Please come to the real California (SoCal that is) and negotiate my next boat purchase. :)
 
Brian D

Brian D

.
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Stillraining...

Please come to the real California (SoCal that is) and negotiate my next boat purchase. :)
 
S

Sanders Lamont

Tony B

Tony hit the nail on the head with his "reasonable expectations" comment. When we purchased Good News in San Diego the survey and sea trial were done at the same time. We had no major surprises, but a big issue for us was whether or not my wife and I could handle a 37 foot boat safely, since most of our experience was on 30s... That worked out fine, and the seller was agreeable to that as a condition (also confident).. The survey showed no major surprises, the seller agreed to make sure some faulty instruments were adjusted/fixed, and we had a deal at the offered price (with those clocks ticking you mentioned earlier). On the other hand, we have an experience sailor friend whose surveyor found a large spongy deck on one boat which had not been noted, and significant blisters on another. Both were deal killers, and well worth the surveyor's fee. And I have met one captain who rejected a boat after sea trial because it looked pretty but "sailed like a dog." The seller acknowledged that was true. Things are not always as they appear, which is why good surveyors are worth what they earn.
 
S

Sanders Lamont

Tony B

Tony hit the nail on the head with his "reasonable expectations" comment. When we purchased Good News in San Diego the survey and sea trial were done at the same time. We had no major surprises, but a big issue for us was whether or not my wife and I could handle a 37 foot boat safely, since most of our experience was on 30s... That worked out fine, and the seller was agreeable to that as a condition (also confident).. The survey showed no major surprises, the seller agreed to make sure some faulty instruments were adjusted/fixed, and we had a deal at the offered price (with those clocks ticking you mentioned earlier). On the other hand, we have an experience sailor friend whose surveyor found a large spongy deck on one boat which had not been noted, and significant blisters on another. Both were deal killers, and well worth the surveyor's fee. And I have met one captain who rejected a boat after sea trial because it looked pretty but "sailed like a dog." The seller acknowledged that was true. Things are not always as they appear, which is why good surveyors are worth what they earn.
 
sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

.
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Pre-purchase Survey - Not Cheap.

I dont remember the exact amount, but the survey was somewhere around $700 for an older 39 Allied in the Tampa Bay area in Florida. It was worth every penny. The seller took care of some minor items which came out to about $500. Even if the seller didnt want to take care of these items, I would have bought the boat anyway. The surveyor was very detailed and methodical. Tony B
 
sailortonyb Allied Mis

sailortonyb Allied Mis

.
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Pre-purchase Survey - Not Cheap.

I dont remember the exact amount, but the survey was somewhere around $700 for an older 39 Allied in the Tampa Bay area in Florida. It was worth every penny. The seller took care of some minor items which came out to about $500. Even if the seller didnt want to take care of these items, I would have bought the boat anyway. The surveyor was very detailed and methodical. Tony B
 
Stillraining

Stillraining

.
Dec 8, 2007
478
Irwin 41 CC Ketch LaConner WA
Tony- Brings up

a good point Phil! Make darn shure you really like the boat before you go thru all these steps.( This is on your nickel ) I would have wasted 2200.00 + if I let the deal slip. 1) 260.00 Air Fair 2) 365.00 Haul out 3) 1500.00 All Surveys ( I had Mechcanical and Hull surveryor's both on sea trial with me, Rigging survey was preformed before I arived ) 4) 100.00 Food/Beer waiting for planes Or you could look at it as. 1 very expencive, long 24 hour day/Vacation with Crewed charter. :)
 
Stillraining

Stillraining

.
Dec 8, 2007
478
Irwin 41 CC Ketch LaConner WA
Tony- Brings up

a good point Phil! Make darn shure you really like the boat before you go thru all these steps.( This is on your nickel ) I would have wasted 2200.00 + if I let the deal slip. 1) 260.00 Air Fair 2) 365.00 Haul out 3) 1500.00 All Surveys ( I had Mechcanical and Hull surveryor's both on sea trial with me, Rigging survey was preformed before I arived ) 4) 100.00 Food/Beer waiting for planes Or you could look at it as. 1 very expencive, long 24 hour day/Vacation with Crewed charter. :)
 
W

Warren Milberg

Everything, I mean everything,

is negotiable in the sale/purchase of a used sailboat. When making a deposit on a used boat and signing a purchase contract, the contract should clearly state what your contingencies are and under what circumstances you can cancel the contract and get your deposit returned. Most commonly, it should state that the sale is contingent upon the "results of a survey" by a qualified surveyor. You, the buyer, then get to interpet the survey results any way you like. The seller, likewise, should spell out what he/she will or will not negotiate so that no one is surprised by the results of the survey. Good faith buyers and sellers should then be able to agree what is negotiable, and what may not be..... Boat sales often fail when there is no common agreement on this before the survey.
 
W

Warren Milberg

Everything, I mean everything,

is negotiable in the sale/purchase of a used sailboat. When making a deposit on a used boat and signing a purchase contract, the contract should clearly state what your contingencies are and under what circumstances you can cancel the contract and get your deposit returned. Most commonly, it should state that the sale is contingent upon the "results of a survey" by a qualified surveyor. You, the buyer, then get to interpet the survey results any way you like. The seller, likewise, should spell out what he/she will or will not negotiate so that no one is surprised by the results of the survey. Good faith buyers and sellers should then be able to agree what is negotiable, and what may not be..... Boat sales often fail when there is no common agreement on this before the survey.
 
C

Capt Ron;-)

Right Warren

Everything is negotiable. Sometimes the seller will (against the brokers advice) say to 'hell with it', but that usually doesn't happen. Seller will lower the price rather than opening a can of worms in the repair process, this is very common. Never heard of ONE time that a buyer could not wiggle out if he has been straight all the way, meaning especially a survey. He can always say he doesn't like something brought up in survey, anything. 1) ALWAYS get a survey. 2) NEVER fall in love till after the survey. If a broker is not invloved, $ does not need (and oft is a handshake) change hands. The buyer is paying for the haulout, survey etc and so in the eight boats I have sold, my own, I never asked for up front money, but a broker has to. The survey will often, not always, pay for itself with odds and ends the report will turn up that you may not think of like, a fixed fire system in the engine bay, CO detectors, weak stanchions, rusted (ever so slight) hose clamps on the packing gland, wear in the cutlass bearing, rudder rudder packing/bearing, winches need service, spongy deck et al...to the nth degree... Back to the mountains, skiing with kids, Happy New Year to all mates, and my birthday tomorrow...;-(
 
C

Capt Ron;-)

Right Warren

Everything is negotiable. Sometimes the seller will (against the brokers advice) say to 'hell with it', but that usually doesn't happen. Seller will lower the price rather than opening a can of worms in the repair process, this is very common. Never heard of ONE time that a buyer could not wiggle out if he has been straight all the way, meaning especially a survey. He can always say he doesn't like something brought up in survey, anything. 1) ALWAYS get a survey. 2) NEVER fall in love till after the survey. If a broker is not invloved, $ does not need (and oft is a handshake) change hands. The buyer is paying for the haulout, survey etc and so in the eight boats I have sold, my own, I never asked for up front money, but a broker has to. The survey will often, not always, pay for itself with odds and ends the report will turn up that you may not think of like, a fixed fire system in the engine bay, CO detectors, weak stanchions, rusted (ever so slight) hose clamps on the packing gland, wear in the cutlass bearing, rudder rudder packing/bearing, winches need service, spongy deck et al...to the nth degree... Back to the mountains, skiing with kids, Happy New Year to all mates, and my birthday tomorrow...;-(
 
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