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Boat painting - DYI - Professionals-paints

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
Paints and getting your boat painted - how to summarize my long list of questions to make a thread worth reading and responding to.... It's a bit of a dilemma... But I'll try my best.

There are so many opinions on paints and painting; I find that the marine world seems to rely heavily on "marine" grade paints but really, what are those?

Whenever I run into these kinds of things, I tend to look to the standards world. In this case, easiest to look into the MIL standards as they tend to be driven by the military and performance and $'s count - and they are easy to find and free....Free is a good thing, especially at this stage where I'm really just trying to get my mind around this.

Mil standards like MIL-DTL-24441 and MIL-PRF-24535 and a host of others provide a lot of information about coating systems on boats. Funny though, the marine paint products that are aimed at the recreational boating market don't give technical details about their products, at least what I could find. Mostly what I find are marketing terms. "high performance polyurethane" - "polyurethane-based coating" but looking into the standards, I'm finding terms like "epoxy-polyamide" - "Chlorinated Alkyd Enamel" - "Silicone Alkyd Enamel" and more.

But what I'm not finding is any sort of technical "bridge" between what I find in standards and what I find in paints aimed at the recreational boating market. That always sends up a real red flag in my mind as my main goal is to achieve excellent quality coupled with the lowest price. Whenever I see these "marketing" terms and no connection to serious standards, my mind begins thinking "High cost, and undefined performance".... The old saying, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" comes to mind.

Now I'm not trying to downplay or in any way criticize these marine paint companies, I'm sure they produce good products. What I'm really interested in is learning about the real paint requirements in such a way as I can then evaluate a painting system even if it's not marketed to the recreational boating industry. And I sure don't want one that isn't going to stand the test of time.

Do we have any polymer chemists or folks that understand paint here that can shed light on this? I'd be really interested in learning more.

dj
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
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Likes: Hello Below

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
It depends on you and your desires.
Well, I'm looking at painting the above waterline sides of my boat and some parts of the top. I'd imagine the same paint system would work for both. I'm pretty set on bottom paints. By the way, I really like the petite paint you referenced. I've always had excellent service with that paint.

The last time I painted a topsides was a long time ago and modern chemistries are way better today.

So what paint systems would you recommend for this?

dj
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
We developed a new Foamed Silica additive to the Titanium Dioxide white pigment.

A Doctor of Chemistry developed a fast track, panel exposure method to only take about 5 years of Sun Exposure.
Every maker of Paints asked this question.

"Will your company Certify all our Paint Warranties?"

Gulp... Nope!!
Jim...
 
Oct 22, 2014
15,871
CAL 35 Cruiser moored EVERETT WA
I watched the Boatworks Today presentation on AlexSeal paint that Andy rolled on a boat yet looked nearly as smooth as if it was sprayed.

It appears that the AlexSeal product is worth considering.
 

RoyS

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Jun 3, 2012
1,167
Hunter 33 Steamboat Wharf, Hull, MA
No Chemist here, however: My boat sides were painted by a previous owner with an Awlgrip product. The first year I had the boat covered for the winter with shrinkwrap. The wrap bonded to the sides of the boat over the winter. After the wrap was peeled off the paint was ruined. Same thing happened to another boat near me in the yard a few years later. Despite the claim that these are "marine paints" I think these paints should not be used on boats IMHO.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
No Chemist here, however: My boat sides were painted by a previous owner with an Awlgrip product. The first year I had the boat covered for the winter with shrinkwrap. The wrap bonded to the sides of the boat over the winter. After the wrap was peeled off the paint was ruined. Same thing happened to another boat near me in the yard a few years later. Despite the claim that these are "marine paints" I think these paints should not be used on boats IMHO.
I guess shrink wrap interaction was not considered in the 15 year Florida sun test... I'm guessing that the paint job from the previous owner did not have a warranty that extended to you after buying the boat?

dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
7,748
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I guess shrink wrap interaction was not considered in the 15 year Florida sun test... I'm guessing that the paint job from the previous owner did not have a warranty that extended to you after buying the boat?

dj
It is a known problem here in the north. Two-part polyurethanes will bubble if covered in plastic for the winter. Shrink wrapping to the toe rail works, but don' let the shrink lay on the painted areas. My mast is awl gripped from the factory. One year I put a plastic bag over the mast butt (mast comes down each year) and wrapped 1 strip of duck tape around the bag and mast, come spring there were little bubbles around the mast under the taped down section.

Alexseal, especially with the new additive, seems to be the easiest 2-part paint to apply and get good results.

I can't speak to the relative chemistries of one and two part polyurethanes, however, the test to see of the paint is one or two part is to wipe a little of the solvent on the paint. If the paint comes off, it is one part.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
My main problem with Alexseal is I've been trying for weeks to get some. If you go to their web site, they direct you to distributors. But those distributors won't sell to me, I'd have to be a marine business. So I ask them to tell me who can I buy it from? I've gotten lists of names and when I call those folk most of them have no idea what I'm talking about, ask me how I got their number and then tell me they don't even know what Alexseal is... Warm and fuzzy? NOT! I even called Alexseal to talk to a technician, got a voice mail, left a message and have never gotten a call back. Of the multiple numbers I've called of supposed retailers, one said he'd have to have an Alexseal rep contact me - that wa weeks ago, no contact.

So Alexseal is not running real high on my list of contenders - let me see - I can't even find it for sale, get 0 support trying to buy it and so, do I think service is suddenly going to become stellar if I do actually find it and then have a problem? Gotta say I love Andy's DYI videos, but this paint company needs to up their game.

dj
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I guess shrink wrap interaction was not considered in the 15 year Florida sun test
Only Sun, Wind and Salty air.
Each of 4 panels tested, for 1 paint, were at different Sun inclination angles. All 4 had to pass.

Then they are returned for continued exposure, until 30 years of testing.
I remember seeing the Graphs of "decline" Most damage, although little, took place in the first 5 years.

I am not sure why you would "Shrink Wrap" any boat. Tarp, I understand.

Shrink Wrap is tightly bonded for shipping stuff that slide off a pallet.

I still feel the paint I posted the link, Post #4, is the best.
Jim...

PS: DJ and I did discuss, briefly, the Chemistry in a Private Message.
 
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Likes: dLj
Jul 26, 2009
251
. . .
My main problem with Alexseal is I've been trying for weeks to get some. If you go to their web site, they direct you to distributors. But those distributors won't sell to me, I'd have to be a marine business. So I ask them to tell me who can I buy it from? I've gotten lists of names and when I call those folk most of them have no idea what I'm talking about, ask me how I got their number and then tell me they don't even know what Alexseal is...
Did you try Hamilton Marine?

Hamilton Marine
 
Jul 26, 2009
251
. . .
Not really true.
Did you know to qualify for any Sun Exposed paint it takes a minimum of 15 years exposer testing with test panels, in Florida Sun?
The Paint makers prefer 30 years of testing.:facepalm:
I didn't realize this. Does the industry not use artificial acceleration chambers (i.e. photo chambers) to model stability in different conditions?
 
Jan 11, 2014
7,748
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
My main problem with Alexseal is I've been trying for weeks to get some. If you go to their web site, they direct you to distributors. But those distributors won't sell to me, I'd have to be a marine business. So I ask them to tell me who can I buy it from? I've gotten lists of names and when I call those folk most of them have no idea what I'm talking about, ask me how I got their number and then tell me they don't even know what Alexseal is... Warm and fuzzy? NOT! I even called Alexseal to talk to a technician, got a voice mail, left a message and have never gotten a call back. Of the multiple numbers I've called of supposed retailers, one said he'd have to have an Alexseal rep contact me - that wa weeks ago, no contact.

So Alexseal is not running real high on my list of contenders - let me see - I can't even find it for sale, get 0 support trying to buy it and so, do I think service is suddenly going to become stellar if I do actually find it and then have a problem? Gotta say I love Andy's DYI videos, but this paint company needs to up their game.

dj
here ya go!

 
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Does the industry not use artificial acceleration chambers
The Chemists, who have a new formula, try to do that, Otherwise innovative products would never hit the market.
But to get a Warranty for the paint, applied correctly, ... Tick Tock...

Think about the Chemists who make a formula, they may be retired when final results are in.
Jim...

PS: If you do not follow the Paint makers application method or thickness... bye bye paint warranties
PSS: The first 5 yrs tells the story.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
I have not tried Hamilton Marine. Looks like they do have the Alexseal paints. they run a bit over $200 a gallon. the Pettit paint @JamesG161 recommended runs more like $80 per gallon. Dropped a phone call to Pettit paints, left a voice message and within an hour had a call back with a very informative, direct Pettit rep.

Am I seeing a pattern here??? Alexseal, very expensive, non-responsive company compared to Pettit, very responsive, less than half the cost... OK, the Pettit is not as high gloss as the Alexseal... I may have to think on that one for a while... Done.

dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
7,748
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I have not tried Hamilton Marine. Looks like they do have the Alexseal paints. they run a bit over $200 a gallon. the Pettit paint @JamesG161 recommended runs more like $80 per gallon. Dropped a phone call to Pettit paints, left a voice message and within an hour had a call back with a very informative, direct Pettit rep.

Am I seeing a pattern here??? Alexseal, very expensive, non-responsive company compared to Pettit, very responsive, less than half the cost... OK, the Pettit is not as high gloss as the Alexseal... I may have to think on that one for a while... Done.

dj
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Petitt EZ-Poxy is a one part polyurethane, AlexSeal is a 2 part polyurethane. The 2 parts paints, like Alex Seal, Awlgrip, and Interlux Perfection are all more durable than one part paints. Spill some on solvent on the EZ-Poxy and the paint dissolves. Sabre used EZ-Poxy Bikini Blue to paint the insides of the lockers. Looks great until you wipe it with a solvent, like alcohol or acetone. Then it becomes a gooey mess and loses it shine. Been there, done that, have the gooey bikini blue t-shirt rag.
 
Feb 14, 2014
5,630
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Spill some on solvent on the EZ-Poxy and the paint dissolves. [not dissolves, but loses binding]
No more drunk sailors on the weather deck.
Spill some Vodka, bye bye high gloss finish.

I think I will polish up my old weather deck.;)
Jim...
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
1,777
Belliure 41 Snug Harbor, Lake Champlain
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Petitt EZ-Poxy is a one part polyurethane, AlexSeal is a 2 part polyurethane. The 2 parts paints, like Alex Seal, Awlgrip, and Interlux Perfection are all more durable than one part paints. Spill some on solvent on the EZ-Poxy and the paint dissolves. Sabre used EZ-Poxy Bikini Blue to paint the insides of the lockers. Looks great until you wipe it with a solvent, like alcohol or acetone. Then it becomes a gooey mess and loses it shine. Been there, done that, have the gooey bikini blue t-shirt rag.
Great advice.

Actually, my biggest problem at the moment is none of these, the Pettite, the AlexSeal nor the Interlux state compliance to the mil standards. I'm going to start looking into the commercial side of paints - those that actually claim compliance to those standards. I've got a buddy that works in Groton at the submarine base. I'm going to give him a call...

I'm not done with my research. It's really only beginning. I have at least a year before I really must have it decided. I'd prefer this summer, but that's not a requirement.

dj