I am a cautious cruiser, my husband is more experienced and more dairy. We are buying a 450 and I have a couple of questions. 1. What is the maximum heel for sailing efficiency? 2. What is the maximum heel for safety? Thanks!
- Status
More important: what is maximum heel for YOU?
The 450 is a large boat. Nothing short of an unusually large and severe storm on the open ocean will turn it turtle. I doubt you will be doing the Fastnet or Sydney-Hobart open ocean races any time soon, so don't worry about it. The angle at which the boat sails most efficiently depends on the point of sail. The boat will heel more close hauled or on a close reach than on other points of sail. The more important question may be this: what keeps YOU comfortable? Try taking the helm. Many people find they are more comfortable as they learn how the boat responds to their own control.
The 450 is a large boat. Nothing short of an unusually large and severe storm on the open ocean will turn it turtle. I doubt you will be doing the Fastnet or Sydney-Hobart open ocean races any time soon, so don't worry about it. The angle at which the boat sails most efficiently depends on the point of sail. The boat will heel more close hauled or on a close reach than on other points of sail. The more important question may be this: what keeps YOU comfortable? Try taking the helm. Many people find they are more comfortable as they learn how the boat responds to their own control.
About 15 degrees
The newer boats sail faster with less heel. Over 15 degrees just slows them down. Mark Johnson
The newer boats sail faster with less heel. Over 15 degrees just slows them down. Mark Johnson
heel feels worse in a CC
Center cockpit designs like the 450, being high off the water, feel kind of scary when they heel, but it's perfectly normal. I trying to remember the actual numbers (someone help me here!) but I believe the max. efficinient heel is 15 degrees - certainly no more than 20. As for the maximum -safe- heel, that's a more complex question. It depends on wave action among other factors, but I can assure you that the maximum safe heel in most conditions is a lot more than most of us could tolerate! I agree with B.T., that the real maximum heel is the degree you can be comfortable with. p.
Center cockpit designs like the 450, being high off the water, feel kind of scary when they heel, but it's perfectly normal. I trying to remember the actual numbers (someone help me here!) but I believe the max. efficinient heel is 15 degrees - certainly no more than 20. As for the maximum -safe- heel, that's a more complex question. It depends on wave action among other factors, but I can assure you that the maximum safe heel in most conditions is a lot more than most of us could tolerate! I agree with B.T., that the real maximum heel is the degree you can be comfortable with. p.
What is it with heeling?
More people seem to complain about or are afraid of heeling than anything else about sailing. Heeling, within reasonable limits, is your friend, just as altitude and airspeed are your friends in an airplane. Heeling at the correct angle makes the boat go faster, reduces leeway, and makes for an exciting and fun passage. It takes a LOT of wind and a LOT of wave to knock down a boat. Most boats are stable and will return upright even after being knocked down past 90 degrees, provided the boat doesn't flood thru the hatches or companionway (keep them closed). Here are some things I really AM afraid of: Lightening Hitting something Being hit by a ship Rocks Grounding Uncontrolled gybes Busted steering Person overboard Fires Dragging anchor Foreign Customs officials Drinking while sailing Drunk Powerboaters (is this redundant?) Rig Failures and, of course, like every good sailor, I hate Jetskis and wish they would all sink at the dock. MC
More people seem to complain about or are afraid of heeling than anything else about sailing. Heeling, within reasonable limits, is your friend, just as altitude and airspeed are your friends in an airplane. Heeling at the correct angle makes the boat go faster, reduces leeway, and makes for an exciting and fun passage. It takes a LOT of wind and a LOT of wave to knock down a boat. Most boats are stable and will return upright even after being knocked down past 90 degrees, provided the boat doesn't flood thru the hatches or companionway (keep them closed). Here are some things I really AM afraid of: Lightening Hitting something Being hit by a ship Rocks Grounding Uncontrolled gybes Busted steering Person overboard Fires Dragging anchor Foreign Customs officials Drinking while sailing Drunk Powerboaters (is this redundant?) Rig Failures and, of course, like every good sailor, I hate Jetskis and wish they would all sink at the dock. MC
Stowage angle
After a time in port, the maximum comfortable heel angle is determined when the stowage is redone. It never fails that something in the cabin hits the deck to remind us that we haven't experienced that angle lately. The helmsperson needs to control the boat, when weather permits, so that the crew gets comfortable to the new angle and can re-stow the boat, before they realy yell and shout then try to see how fast we can go.
After a time in port, the maximum comfortable heel angle is determined when the stowage is redone. It never fails that something in the cabin hits the deck to remind us that we haven't experienced that angle lately. The helmsperson needs to control the boat, when weather permits, so that the crew gets comfortable to the new angle and can re-stow the boat, before they realy yell and shout then try to see how fast we can go.
clinometer
i found that my sailing partner relaxed a lot more after we installed a large clinometer over the companionway hatch. it helps to know that 20 degrees, which sometimes feels like 45, is really only twenty degrees...... we sometimes negotiate heel angles prior to daysails, depending upon who will be on board. many of our land friends are in the 15-degree-max category, which means we'll reef the main a bit earlier than otherwise. my sailing partner (and wife of 22 years) is quick to tell me when i've dipped the rail too far for the comfort of the "crew", and now she has the clinometer data to back her up. by the way, purchase the biggest clinometer you can find. I have a Rieker, which is about 6"x2.5" which only cost twenty bucks.
i found that my sailing partner relaxed a lot more after we installed a large clinometer over the companionway hatch. it helps to know that 20 degrees, which sometimes feels like 45, is really only twenty degrees...... we sometimes negotiate heel angles prior to daysails, depending upon who will be on board. many of our land friends are in the 15-degree-max category, which means we'll reef the main a bit earlier than otherwise. my sailing partner (and wife of 22 years) is quick to tell me when i've dipped the rail too far for the comfort of the "crew", and now she has the clinometer data to back her up. by the way, purchase the biggest clinometer you can find. I have a Rieker, which is about 6"x2.5" which only cost twenty bucks.
by the way...
...when the neices and nephews are aboard, my preferred form of rail meat, i have the mate's blessings to ratchet things up to 25 degrees of heel whenever possible. sometimes a fellow just has to have fun. my 410, which has the optional deep keel, actually goes slower once the heal hits about 25 degrees, depending on sea states. my VMG increases appreciably whenever we throttle back from 25 to 20 degrees, except in cases of severe windchop, when we need the extra power to blast through the green stuff.
...when the neices and nephews are aboard, my preferred form of rail meat, i have the mate's blessings to ratchet things up to 25 degrees of heel whenever possible. sometimes a fellow just has to have fun. my 410, which has the optional deep keel, actually goes slower once the heal hits about 25 degrees, depending on sea states. my VMG increases appreciably whenever we throttle back from 25 to 20 degrees, except in cases of severe windchop, when we need the extra power to blast through the green stuff.
Practice makes perfect
What works for one person doesn’t necessarily works for another, but this is what happened in my situation. My background is well versed in the knowledge about forces, weights, and balance and I’ve tried for years to explain how these things interrelate, to no avail. A few years ago (3, 4, 5?), to keep the peace, I agreed to buy and install a clinometer; I’ve done the first step and the second step is on my to-do list (I have a real aversion to drilling holes in the boat). In the meantime; however, my wife has been taking the helm – reluctantly and infrequently at first but gradually more often and taking on more difficult sailing conditions. In the past she never liked me to ‘race’ another boat; if there was another boat out there she would accuse me of ‘racing’ – and of course, you know, I wouldn’t do that! Now, however, if she is at the helm, it’s not racing – but she really enjoys ‘doing better’ than the other boat. What’s happened is a gradual shift in perception of what is bad about heeling; surprisingly, it’s not so bad anymore. Things falling down below – “oh well, pick them up later” (when she’s at the helm) whereas when I was steering that was a sure sign I was causing the boat to heel too much. Yes, I’m reminded that it’s been a few years since we bought the clinometer and I absolutely promise it will be installed – but things are gradually beginning to improve. My recommendation would be to go with the clinometer if there is a good vertical place to mount it, and try to take the helm once in a while, especially when conditions aren’t apt to change much and you can sail a long tack. Get the feel between helm pressure, helm angle, and notice what the boat is doing when the helm is moved slightly. Watch the windex, tell tails on the luff of the jib, apparent wind angle on the instruments, feel what is happening when you’re steering, and gradually, I’m sure, you’ll start feeling more comfortable with everything, and heeling a bit (more than what you’re comfortable with now) will not seem all that bad. Practice makes perfect. When it comes to cooking, my wife is an absolutely great cook and I can only ‘do’ oatmeal. Last year she was sick with the flu and I had to take care of cooking for a few days – with her detailed instructions and patience (sometimes worn thin), we both survived. Hopefully with sailing you’ll never have to take over, but who knows.
What works for one person doesn’t necessarily works for another, but this is what happened in my situation. My background is well versed in the knowledge about forces, weights, and balance and I’ve tried for years to explain how these things interrelate, to no avail. A few years ago (3, 4, 5?), to keep the peace, I agreed to buy and install a clinometer; I’ve done the first step and the second step is on my to-do list (I have a real aversion to drilling holes in the boat). In the meantime; however, my wife has been taking the helm – reluctantly and infrequently at first but gradually more often and taking on more difficult sailing conditions. In the past she never liked me to ‘race’ another boat; if there was another boat out there she would accuse me of ‘racing’ – and of course, you know, I wouldn’t do that! Now, however, if she is at the helm, it’s not racing – but she really enjoys ‘doing better’ than the other boat. What’s happened is a gradual shift in perception of what is bad about heeling; surprisingly, it’s not so bad anymore. Things falling down below – “oh well, pick them up later” (when she’s at the helm) whereas when I was steering that was a sure sign I was causing the boat to heel too much. Yes, I’m reminded that it’s been a few years since we bought the clinometer and I absolutely promise it will be installed – but things are gradually beginning to improve. My recommendation would be to go with the clinometer if there is a good vertical place to mount it, and try to take the helm once in a while, especially when conditions aren’t apt to change much and you can sail a long tack. Get the feel between helm pressure, helm angle, and notice what the boat is doing when the helm is moved slightly. Watch the windex, tell tails on the luff of the jib, apparent wind angle on the instruments, feel what is happening when you’re steering, and gradually, I’m sure, you’ll start feeling more comfortable with everything, and heeling a bit (more than what you’re comfortable with now) will not seem all that bad. Practice makes perfect. When it comes to cooking, my wife is an absolutely great cook and I can only ‘do’ oatmeal. Last year she was sick with the flu and I had to take care of cooking for a few days – with her detailed instructions and patience (sometimes worn thin), we both survived. Hopefully with sailing you’ll never have to take over, but who knows.
Desensitize...
I just couldn't get comfortable with heeling... scared the you-know-what out of me. So an instructor I was sailing with over trimmed the boat in 25-30 knot winds, almost burried the rail and we went on like that all afternoon. By dinner time, I was definately desensitized to it. If heeling troubles you, do this, with someone who is helpful and not abusive, and you also will become more comfortable with heeling. Regarding the boat, remember that the heavy keel you never see but is there helping you exerts more righting moment the further it gets from the centerline, so the more you heel the more the boat "wants" to straighten back up (not so for catamarans but that's another story). The boat will not roll over unless something really nasty happens with waves and weather... in "ordinary" situations you could not roll it over no matter how hard you try!
I just couldn't get comfortable with heeling... scared the you-know-what out of me. So an instructor I was sailing with over trimmed the boat in 25-30 knot winds, almost burried the rail and we went on like that all afternoon. By dinner time, I was definately desensitized to it. If heeling troubles you, do this, with someone who is helpful and not abusive, and you also will become more comfortable with heeling. Regarding the boat, remember that the heavy keel you never see but is there helping you exerts more righting moment the further it gets from the centerline, so the more you heel the more the boat "wants" to straighten back up (not so for catamarans but that's another story). The boat will not roll over unless something really nasty happens with waves and weather... in "ordinary" situations you could not roll it over no matter how hard you try!
No need to drill
I, too, had reservations about drilling to mount a clinometer. So, instead, I used a couple of pieces of 1/8" double-sided white foam tape on the back side of the 6" plastic clinometer and mounted it on my console. That was three years ago and it's still holding on tight.
I, too, had reservations about drilling to mount a clinometer. So, instead, I used a couple of pieces of 1/8" double-sided white foam tape on the back side of the 6" plastic clinometer and mounted it on my console. That was three years ago and it's still holding on tight.
Heeling
Judy, When my wife and I bought our first sailboat (a 336), she was terrified when the boat heeled. If we got to 10 degrees, she would be saying "get the boat upright, get the boat upright!" After about 18 months, after we gained some experience, and learning how to depower the boat with the traveler and mainsheet, and by putting her on the helm, she feels much more comfortable now up to 20-25 degrees. I think the biggest thing was when she realized that if she let go of the helm, the boat would eventually round up into the wind, and come upright, although forward motion would stop. Now when we are sailing, I can't get her off the helm and I get "stuck" with the job of being the sail trimmer. I am so proud of her. Now if I can only get her over her fear of sailing in the ocean (just does not like the motion of the ocean). Oh well, I guess on ething at a time. Paul Bednarzyk S/V Knot Again
Judy, When my wife and I bought our first sailboat (a 336), she was terrified when the boat heeled. If we got to 10 degrees, she would be saying "get the boat upright, get the boat upright!" After about 18 months, after we gained some experience, and learning how to depower the boat with the traveler and mainsheet, and by putting her on the helm, she feels much more comfortable now up to 20-25 degrees. I think the biggest thing was when she realized that if she let go of the helm, the boat would eventually round up into the wind, and come upright, although forward motion would stop. Now when we are sailing, I can't get her off the helm and I get "stuck" with the job of being the sail trimmer. I am so proud of her. Now if I can only get her over her fear of sailing in the ocean (just does not like the motion of the ocean). Oh well, I guess on ething at a time. Paul Bednarzyk S/V Knot Again
Double faced tape idea
Thanks for the double-faced tape recommendation - that's a good idea. I think I have some and the last time it was used it had really good adhesion. Drilling holes in the fiberglass was only part of my reservations, the other part was setting the zero position. It depends on so many things and I didn't want to stick the screw holes in the fiberglass and learn later that the clinometer was off a few degrees. I used rigging tape to hold up the clinometer (color of tape coordinated with the gel coat) but it wasn't sticky enough and the clinometer came off every once in a while.
Thanks for the double-faced tape recommendation - that's a good idea. I think I have some and the last time it was used it had really good adhesion. Drilling holes in the fiberglass was only part of my reservations, the other part was setting the zero position. It depends on so many things and I didn't want to stick the screw holes in the fiberglass and learn later that the clinometer was off a few degrees. I used rigging tape to hold up the clinometer (color of tape coordinated with the gel coat) but it wasn't sticky enough and the clinometer came off every once in a while.
- Status