Boat gelcoat polishing topic

[Maine Sail]

Ah but..

Quote: "I've read your description of the steps you take and all I can say is I'm glad you don't own a big powerboat."

That's actually where I honed my skills on large yachts. Actually prior to that it was in antique show cars (usually many, many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer). You learn real fast on a 55+ footer what products actually work and which ones don't as you can't afford to be wheeling and waxing acres of gelcoat any more than absolutely necessary. I remember very clearly when the owner showed up one day with this "new" product (he had always let Cap't Roy & myself decide which detailing products to use prior to this endeavor). This "new" product was the a boat wax with "Teflon". I think it may have been Starbrite but I could be wrong. He had us do the entire boat with this stuff after of course polishing it. Long story short we were re-doing it seven weeks later.;( That sucked although I was in good shape after that fiasco..!! Dick, the owner, knew how he wanted the boat to look and how he thought it should bead, after a wash down, and this stuff just did not cut it. for So back to a Carnuba wax we went..

It used to take about 200 hours to do the annual exterior "detail" on one of the boat I worked on while in college! I worked on another that had Awlgrip topsides so all we had to wheel was the decks of course the decks are much tougher to do.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

200 hours!

only goes to confirm the theory of different strokes for different folks.
If I had to do that much work to get it to shine, it would be for sale cheap!

 

[Maine Sail]

Ah but..

Ah but..

Quote: "I've read your description of the steps you take and all I can say is I'm glad you don't own a big powerboat."

That's actually where I honed my skills on large yachts. Actually prior to that it was in antique show cars (usually many, many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer). You learn real fast on a 55+ footer what products actually work and which ones don't as you can't afford to be wheeling and waxing acres of gelcoat any more than absolutely necessary. I remember very clearly when the owner showed up one day with this "new" product (he had always let Cap't Roy & myself decide which detailing products to use prior to this endeavor). This "new" product was the a boat wax with "Teflon". I think it may have been Starbrite but I could be wrong. He had us do the entire boat with this stuff after of course polishing it. Long story short we were re-doing it seven weeks later. That sucked although I was in good shape after that fiasco..!! Dick, the owner, knew how he wanted the boat to look and how he thought it should bead, after a wash down, and this stuff just did not cut it. for So back to a Carnuba wax we went..

It used to take about 200 hours to do the annual exterior "detail" on one of the boat I worked on while in college! I worked on another that had Awlgrip topsides so all we had to wheel was the decks of course the decks are much tougher to do.


Jviss,

Machine wash on cold with Woolite, Ivory Snow or Dreft.

Air drying is the preferred method if you are happy with the cut you are getting from the pad. If the cut is too light or not fast enough, for your liking, you can toss it in the dryer for about ten to 15 minutes and this will bring it up a notch in aggressiveness. Only do this until you have tuned your pad to your liking then always air dry.

DO NOT dry or wash your polishing grade pads on hot to toughen them up. This trick is only for heavy grade cutting pads and only if they need it..

Wash on cold, air dry and try that first though.

P.S. Don I put it in perspective for you..

 

[Maine Sail]

Ah but..

Quote: "I've read your description of the steps you take and all I can say is I'm glad you don't own a big powerboat."

That's actually where I honed my skills on large yachts. Actually prior to that it was in antique show cars (usually many, many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer). You learn real fast on a 55+ footer what products actually work and which ones don't as you can't afford to be wheeling and waxing acres of gelcoat any more than absolutely necessary. I remember very clearly when the owner showed up one day with this "new" product (he had always let Cap't Roy & myself decide which detailing products to use prior to this endeavor). This "new" product was the a boat wax with "Teflon". I think it may have been Starbrite but I could be wrong. He had us do the entire boat with this stuff after of course polishing it. Long story short we were re-doing it seven weeks later. That sucked although I was in good shape after that fiasco..!! Dick, the owner, knew how he wanted the boat to look and how he thought it should bead, after a wash down, and this stuff just did not cut it. for So back to a Carnuba wax we went..

It used to take about 200 hours to do the annual exterior "detail" on one of the boat I worked on while in college! I worked on another that had Awlgrip topsides so all we had to wheel was the decks of course the decks are much tougher to do.


Jviss,

Machine wash on cold with Woolite, Ivory Snow or Dreft.

Air drying is the preferred method if you are happy with the cut you are getting from the pad. If the cut is too light or not fast enough, for your liking, you can toss it in the dryer for about ten to 15 minutes and this will bring it up a notch in aggressiveness. Only do this until you have tuned your pad to your liking then always air dry.

DO NOT dry or wash your polishing grade pads on hot to toughen them up. This trick is only for heavy grade cutting pads and only if they need it..

Wash on cold, air dry and try that first though.

P.S. Don I put it in perspective for you..

 

[Tim R.]

What you are missing Don

Is that you have a boat that has many less hours in the harmfull sun than other boats here. You also appear to be at least applying some form of protection that many owners do not. Imagine a california or southern boat that is twice the age of your boat. It will likely have 4 times the exposure to the sun from being 2x as old and at least 2x the season you have. Factor in higher sun angles and owners neglect and boats will deteriorate very fast.

My FIL's 2004 Etap 39 looks like one of these boats even though he pays a yard $700 every spring to wax his topsides(not deck or cabin). They do only 1 coat of wax and nothing on the deck/cabintop). I spent a day this year wet sanding, buffing and polishing my cabin top and it looks a thousand times better than his dull stained gelcoat. Definately worth the effort.

BTW, The Awlgrip looks fantastic. Do you have any photos of your deck/cabin to show off for us?

 

[Maine Sail]

Ah but..

Quote: "I've read your description of the steps you take and all I can say is I'm glad you don't own a big powerboat."

That's actually where I honed my skills on large yachts. Actually prior to that it was in antique show cars (usually many, many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer). You learn real fast on a 55+ footer what products actually work and which ones don't as you can't afford to be wheeling and waxing acres of gelcoat any more than absolutely necessary. I remember very clearly when the owner showed up one day with this "new" product (he had always let Cap't Roy & myself decide which detailing products to use prior to this endeavor). This "new" product was the a boat wax with "Teflon". I think it may have been Starbrite but I could be wrong. He had us do the entire boat with this stuff after of course polishing it. Long story short we were re-doing it seven weeks later. That sucked although I was in good shape after that fiasco..!! Dick, the owner, knew how he wanted the boat to look and how he thought it should bead, after a wash down, and this stuff just did not cut it. for So back to a Carnuba wax we went..

It used to take about 200 hours to do the annual exterior "detail" on one of the boat I worked on while in college! I worked on another that had Awlgrip topsides so all we had to wheel was the decks of course the decks are much tougher to do.


Jviss,

Machine wash on cold with Woolite, Ivory Snow or Dreft.

Air drying is the preferred method if you are happy with the cut you are getting from the pad. If the cut is too light or not fast enough, for your liking, you can toss it in the dryer for about ten to 15 minutes and this will bring it up a notch in aggressiveness. Only do this until you have tuned your pad to your liking then always air dry.

DO NOT dry or wash your polishing grade pads on hot to toughen them up. This trick is only for heavy grade cutting pads and only if they need it..

Wash on cold, air dry and try that first though.

P.S. Don I put it in perspective for you..

 

[Maine Sail]

Yes but..

Quote: "I've read your description of the steps you take and all I can say is I'm glad you don't own a big powerboat."

That's actually where I honed my skills on large yachts. Actually prior to that it was in antique show cars (usually many, many coats of nitrocellulose lacquer). You learn real fast on a 55+ footer what products actually work and which ones don't as you can't afford to be wheeling and waxing acres of gelcoat any more than absolutely necessary. I remember very clearly when the owner showed up one day with this "new" product (he had always let Cap't Roy & myself decide which detailing products to use prior to this endeavor). This "new" product was the a boat wax with "Teflon". I think it may have been Starbrite but I could be wrong. He had us do the entire boat with this stuff after of course polishing it. Long story short we were re-doing it seven weeks later. That sucked although I was in good shape after that fiasco..!! Dick, the owner, knew how he wanted the boat to look and how he thought it should bead, after a wash down, and this stuff just did not cut it. for So back to a Carnuba wax we went..

It used to take about 200 hours to do the annual exterior "detail" on one of the boat I worked on while in college! I worked on another that had Awlgrip topsides so all we had to wheel was the decks of course the decks are much tougher to do.


Jviss,

Machine wash on cold with Woolite, Ivory Snow or Dreft.

Air drying is the preferred method if you are happy with the cut you are getting from the pad. If the cut is too light or not fast enough, for your liking, you can toss it in the dryer for about ten to 15 minutes and this will bring it up a notch in aggressiveness. Only do this until you have tuned your pad to your liking then always air dry.

DO NOT dry or wash your polishing grade pads on hot to toughen them up. This trick is only for heavy grade cutting pads and only if they need it..

Wash on cold, air dry and try that first though.

P.S. Don I put it in perspective for you..

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

200 hours!

Even a fraction of that sounds too much like manual labor. As Tim correctly points out, a southern or neglected boat might require extensive surface maintenance but if I had to do that much work on a New England boat, it would be gone. Everyone defines fun differently but this much work with that many tools, pads, stuff? Thanks for the explanation Maine but I'll never understand why.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Tim

sorry for dupe post but couldn't add to previous one Tim

 

[Maine Sail]

But Don..

The only manual labor the owner of this boat had was writing checks! Try blowing up a huge 12 cylinder 1000+ hp Cat diesel and having to cut a hole in the side of the boat to replace it (that's how they do it after the boat is already built)! Does 175K sound like a good deal for an engine replacement? Not to me, but it did to him.

200 hours of labor for spit shining, to some wealthy boat owners, is like you and I buying a floating key chain at West Marine.

 

[jviss]

Enough, already!

You know Don, good for you if you have a boat that looks just as good as all your neighbors', and you spend much less time on it; and you just don't get it, don't understand what all of my fuss is about, especially since it doesn't make my boat faster. So what if your neighbors are wasting their meticulous efforts? I started this post with a detailed, well written post, asking for help on a topic you apparently think is silly. I just wish you wouldn't poison the topic with your mocking incredulity, and argue with those who recognize the value of this.

 

[Bob V]

I asked for the same advice about a year ago

I got a lot of replies including a 5-page instruction manual from Mainesail. Thanks Mainesail. I spent about 40 hours on the hull of my new C42 and took a bit of ribbing from the yard guys at first. By the end of the week, they were asking for a copy of my "wax book".

Looks like new is an insult. It looks a lot better than new when you do it right.

I also used to think that wood chisels were the most sharp when they were new...not so.

 

[Maine Sail]

Jviss..

I used to own a C-36 too and here's what yours will look like when you're done. Good luck and do remember to take some before and after shots. I always seem to forget the before.

Don't worry about Don he chimes in on every thread relating to buffing and does the same bit. Lots of folks on many different forums have used the the same method your are going to and have been very, very happy with the results. Remember it's what makes you happy not what makes Don happy.

C-36 after
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/73006833.jpg

 

[Adirondack Bob]

A Few More Questions on Polishing

I apologize for extending a seemingly endless discussion about polishing, but like jviss, I decided this year to try to make my boat sparkle after following these threads for the past year or two. My experience left me with some additional questions about issues that have come up before.

For one: I had trouble with the pads I was using on my buffer (which is not an expensive one). Following advice I read on this forum, I bought some good terry cloth pads (or what I thought were good pads), but they seemed to wear out too quickly when I used them with the rubbing compound (I used 3M heavy duty). Which pads are best for this stage?

Two: When I got to the polishing stage (using Finesse It), I used a wool pad, but it seemed to get quickly caked up. I ended up having to go over the surface with a clean cloth (by hand!) to remove excess polish and finish this stage.

I'm guessing I used the wrong pads. Am I right about that?

I should add here that I generally followed Mainesail's process, but I didn't wet sand. I started with the rubbing compound, moved to the polish, then finished with wax (Collinite). I should also add that my boat is a 1983 Oday 23, which I purchased two years ago. It was pretty heavily oxidized and hadn't been maintained well by the PO. I did the topsides, deck, and cockpit. I'm pleased with the results. She looks so much better than before (one of the guys who owns the marina where I bought her and launch her commented on how good she looked this season). But I think I could have done a better job.

What should I have done differently?

Thanks.

Bob

 

[jviss]

More

Maine,

Your C36 looks great - I've seen that pic before, I think that's what got me going.

I also happen to have an old, neglected fiberglass dinghy that I might practice on. It's kind of neat, being a genuine Pearson dinghy, nameplate and all, the same Pearson that made the classic fiberglass sailboats. I even have the original sail rig, rudder and dagger board.

I guess what I was looking for was how to determine where to jump in, i.e., what stage of polishing; and also, how should I align the pads and the polishing product.

I found a really nice graphical depiction of pad & product to polishing action for Lake Country CSS pads:

http://www.lakecountrymfg.com/padappguide.html

It addresses old or new paint, not gelcoat, though.

I would also like to know the grit-equivalent of the various products. For example, something like "Meguairs #9 on a CSS whie foam pad is like 2000 grit wet/dry." One of my concerns is going backwards as I progress through what I think are fine polishing stages.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this! Time to get some experience, I guess.

 

[jviss]

Let me try to answer that...

To Adirondack Bob,

Note that my response is based entirely on speculation, as I haven't done this yet, but I've read a lot and I think I can stand in for Maine on some basics (correct me, please, if I'm wrong).

First, forget about terry cloth anything! It's no good as a compounding or polishing pad, as you've seen, you will blow through it in minutes. For hand waxing, apply with a moistened foam applicator, and rub with a microfiber cloth.

A wool pad may be too coarse for "final polishing." If its a pure wool, twisted yarn pad, it definitely is too coarse. If its a non-twisted wool fiber, or a wool/syn blend, it might be O.K. - I've seen yellow colored wool blend, non-twisted pads that are supposed to be fine enough for polishing.

Use a spray bottle with water to mist as you go, keeping the product and pad damp. When the pad loads up with polish, it can be "spurred" with a spurring tool (like a Western style rider's spur) to clear it out.

Foam pads are supposed to be great - I'll find out soon (due Monday).

What buffer have you? I went overboard and got the Makita. I noticed yesterday in Auto Zone that they sell a buffer made by Great Neck (perhaps a store brand) that is a CLONE of the Makita, at least in form and advertised features, except it's lowest stated speed is 1000 RPM, going up to 3000 (while hte Makita goes down to 600); at only $79 it is definitely worth a look. You can always return it. My Makita was $175 on eBay with two good pads and a bag.

So, I suspect you could have gotten "Mainsail" quality results with better pads, and perhaps a better machine.

 

[Maine Sail]

Bob..

Buffer features that matter are: 1) No load speed. 2) Weight (lighter is better when working overhead). 3)Thumb control speed dial. 4) Low speeds 600 rpm is a very useful speed but many circular buffers have a slow speed of 1000 rpm. 5) Soft start this helps prevent sling upon start up.

Buffing Pads- You will need two or three grades of buffing pads or discs. I generally recommend 3M pads because they are easy to find and most Napa Auto Parts stores stock them. The 3M heavy wool Superbuff pads are great for compounding and the 3M foam "egg crate" polishing grade pads #05725 are wonderful for adding the finishing touch. Use a heavy wool compounding grade pad for the compounding, and a polishing grade wool or the #05725 for the polishing stage and the same #05725 foam pad for the finishing or glazing stage.

Lake country also makes great pads and you can get them on Autogeek.

SPEED & PRESSURE

It sounds like you are starting with a dry pad (hint terry cloth retains very little moisture). When you start with wool of foam pre-dampen it then apply then compound. It also sounds like you are applying to much pressure or speed. SLOW down and let eh buffer do the work. As Jviss said cheap pads are just that, cheap pads, and they will yield poor results. If your pad loads up rinse it with water and spin dry in a 5 gallon bucket at the highest speed your buffer will go then pat dry with a towel and you're ready to go again. I don't like spurs as they can damage the pads backing and don't really do a very good job of cleaning it as your fingers will do when run under a spigot..

When compounding do keep in mind that a compound is like liquid wet sand paper. Therefore, you MUST keep your pad slightly wet to damp at ALL TIMES. I use a misting bottle filled with water for this. If the pad begins "gripping" the hull hit the hull or pad with the mist bottle and continue on.

If you are a novice DO NOT attempt to use the buffer to buff OFF compounds or polishes. When wet sanding you do not use the sand paper to remove the residue and the same applies to a buffer. Running the pad dry, as in buffing until the compound is off the hull, is something best left for PROFESSIONALS.

You can very easily damage your hull if you are not experienced at "dry" buffing. DO NOT dry buff!! I've seen burned and permanently discolored gel coat from novices attempting this. This is the reason they put "silicones" in compounds and it's because most people don;t understand the concept of how to use a buffer. Your buffer should be considered just that a buffer not a "remover". Work a 2 foot by 2 foot area and stop. Next wipe the residue off while it's still in the "damp to wet" mode. Don't let it dry or it will be a bear to remove unless you wet it again.. This will show you how much more you need to do or if you can move onto the next 2X2 area.

 

[Deadline]

Island Girl

An alternative to Polyglow is the Island Girl program of resins that actually fill in the pours for an excellent polish. I've been using it for years and can attest to great results. A monthly cleaning of white Collinite freshens it up quickly.

As to the non-skid, Island Girl makes a wonderful product that retains the shine while providing a great grip. I'm surprised more readers haven't weighed in on Island Girl.

One caution: Instructions are over-written but obviously detailed.

 

[jviss]

Miracle products

Perhaps we should start a new thread for the miracle products like Poliglow, Island Girl, etc.

I would hope we can keep this thread on-topic, for polishing gelcoat with abrasives and machines.

I am just not interested in anything other than abrasive polishign and carnauba wax.

I think the only thing I would apply to my gelcoat is more gelcoat - to repair broken-out voids, fill stress cracks, and repair damage. I have done extensive fiberglass and gelcoat repair. I never went as far as color-matching gelcoat, but I plan on that this year - a local paint store has offered to tint my gelcoat base for me, using their computer-based analysis and tinting system. Now I just have to find a small enough part of my boat to bring them (non-destructively).

 

[Ken]

Quick question for Mainsail on buffing

Mainsail - greatly appreciate your expertise on polishing - just had a quick question - do you follow the final Collinite wax application with a machine buffer or do you polish by hand?