Diesel pickup owners are in the middle of changing from Low Sulfer Diesel (LSD) to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). The basic difference is that LSD has 500 parts per million of sulfer and ULSD has 15 ppm. The sulfer helps with the lubrication of the engine. Service stations are also changing over to the ULSD. My marina is in the stone age when it comes to diesel fuel and has no idea what is transpiring. I usually buy my fuel at a local truck stop, that has signs out saying as of 1/1/07...all diesel will be ULSD. Will this harm my 10 old Yanmar? Do I need to use an additive? Thanks.
Boat Diesel Fuel
- Thread starter Bob16841
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Hi Bob, diesel fuel blends whether used in...
a truck engine or your Yanmar should not make any difference. In our state marina fuel docks do not apply the road tax as long as it is used for boaters. The state requires that it have a different color than diesel fuels used in vehicles. Terry
a truck engine or your Yanmar should not make any difference. In our state marina fuel docks do not apply the road tax as long as it is used for boaters. The state requires that it have a different color than diesel fuels used in vehicles. Terry
Lubricant additives
the sulfur acts as a lubricant in the fuel. To offset the loss of sulfur's properties, the U.S. refineries are adding lubricants to replace the sulfur. Not sure about BP.
the sulfur acts as a lubricant in the fuel. To offset the loss of sulfur's properties, the U.S. refineries are adding lubricants to replace the sulfur. Not sure about BP.
ULS Diesel
I'm in Canada but we have a similar problem - my guess is the Diesel is all the same. We probably supply quite a bit to the US. Anyway - because of this new diesel, I contacted Yanmar, who forwarded my e-mail to my local Yanmar distributor in Vancouver. They replied that there was no problem with my 10yr old 2GM20F as the fuel refiners were adding extra lubricant to replace that lost with the reduction of sulphur. So carry on as normal. Sam Salter C&C 26 Skye II Ghost Lake Alberta
I'm in Canada but we have a similar problem - my guess is the Diesel is all the same. We probably supply quite a bit to the US. Anyway - because of this new diesel, I contacted Yanmar, who forwarded my e-mail to my local Yanmar distributor in Vancouver. They replied that there was no problem with my 10yr old 2GM20F as the fuel refiners were adding extra lubricant to replace that lost with the reduction of sulphur. So carry on as normal. Sam Salter C&C 26 Skye II Ghost Lake Alberta
Warren that's exactly what happen to my 05
diesel jetta after my 5th tank of ULSD ... I had been using LSD for the first 30K miles ... All three of mine EGR pollution control devices were clogged up and had to be replaced. I can only imagine what it's going to do to my 22 year old yanmar 3GMF with all the build up of carbon and so on..
diesel jetta after my 5th tank of ULSD ... I had been using LSD for the first 30K miles ... All three of mine EGR pollution control devices were clogged up and had to be replaced. I can only imagine what it's going to do to my 22 year old yanmar 3GMF with all the build up of carbon and so on..
Well, nobody has convinced me that sulfur is a
lubricant. In its natural state it's a yellow powder. Pinch some between your fingers and rub them together. I don't want that stuff in my engine. From what I've read on this subject, the early methods of sulfur removal in other countries were the problem. Too much lubricity (that means OIL) was removed during the process and that damaged high pressure pumps that depended on the oil in our FUEL OIL. The old seals had problems too. As the owner of three diesel engines, I'm looking forward to the removal of sulfur. All except the price. Wow! We're back up to $3.00 a gallon. Did anyone think that that wouldn't happen?
Nothing but greed! Another good thing about ULSD is that the efficiency of diesel will enter the automotive market in a big way. Clean-burn engines are poised to take over the highways. And if they're like my Duramax, my hotrod is going to have competition.
lubricant. In its natural state it's a yellow powder. Pinch some between your fingers and rub them together. I don't want that stuff in my engine. From what I've read on this subject, the early methods of sulfur removal in other countries were the problem. Too much lubricity (that means OIL) was removed during the process and that damaged high pressure pumps that depended on the oil in our FUEL OIL. The old seals had problems too. As the owner of three diesel engines, I'm looking forward to the removal of sulfur. All except the price. Wow! We're back up to $3.00 a gallon. Did anyone think that that wouldn't happen?
Nothing but greed! Another good thing about ULSD is that the efficiency of diesel will enter the automotive market in a big way. Clean-burn engines are poised to take over the highways. And if they're like my Duramax, my hotrod is going to have competition.Sulfur issues
It's not elemental surfur, to which you refer Fred, that is present in contemporary diesel blends but rather a complex of high molecular weight surfur compounds which do add lubricity to the fuel. Again, the refiners are adding other compounds to replicate the characteristics without the contaminant. Unfortunately, therein lies a potential problem - many years ago, the electirc industry (principly GE) obtained "regulatory religion" and eliminated PCBs from their high voltage components because of environmental reasons. Only years later did we learn that the substitute was a teratogen (read -not good) and potentially more dangerous than PCBs. Who knows what will evolve from this "better idea"? Some of the benefits are reduced possibility of creating sulfuric acid in the combustion chambers resulting in increased life of exhaust systems and less contamination of the lube oil as well as the environmental benefit(s). Downside(s) are arguable as no one REALLY knows what, if any, effect the low surfur blends will have on synthetic components, e.g., seals, etc. Anecdotal tales of what happened to such-and-such an engine are at best interesting.
It's not elemental surfur, to which you refer Fred, that is present in contemporary diesel blends but rather a complex of high molecular weight surfur compounds which do add lubricity to the fuel. Again, the refiners are adding other compounds to replicate the characteristics without the contaminant. Unfortunately, therein lies a potential problem - many years ago, the electirc industry (principly GE) obtained "regulatory religion" and eliminated PCBs from their high voltage components because of environmental reasons. Only years later did we learn that the substitute was a teratogen (read -not good) and potentially more dangerous than PCBs. Who knows what will evolve from this "better idea"? Some of the benefits are reduced possibility of creating sulfuric acid in the combustion chambers resulting in increased life of exhaust systems and less contamination of the lube oil as well as the environmental benefit(s). Downside(s) are arguable as no one REALLY knows what, if any, effect the low surfur blends will have on synthetic components, e.g., seals, etc. Anecdotal tales of what happened to such-and-such an engine are at best interesting.
Well there ya go Don,
Just another failing of the English language and chemistry. Funny how that always happens when a dollar is to be made. Reminds me of the ozone hole. Oh, remember when driving behind a catalytic converter car and you smelled sulfur? It was really sulfuric acid. Battery Acid. That's what hydrocarbons/sulfur were converted to by the early catalysts used in converters. All in the name of getting rid of the remaining 10% of emissions. Nobody thought to do the 'chemistry', or didn't care, in their rush to regulate and exercise power. At least they know to get the sulfur out of diesel. That wasn't the case with gasoline.
Just another failing of the English language and chemistry. Funny how that always happens when a dollar is to be made. Reminds me of the ozone hole. Oh, remember when driving behind a catalytic converter car and you smelled sulfur? It was really sulfuric acid. Battery Acid. That's what hydrocarbons/sulfur were converted to by the early catalysts used in converters. All in the name of getting rid of the remaining 10% of emissions. Nobody thought to do the 'chemistry', or didn't care, in their rush to regulate and exercise power. At least they know to get the sulfur out of diesel. That wasn't the case with gasoline.
Sulphur lubes the injectors/pumps
My understanding is the sulphur in the fuel acts as a lubricant for the injection pumps & injectors, both of which are machined to very tight tolerances and depend on the lubricity of the fuel to function and to last. How & why it works, I don't know - like Fred, the sulphur I'm familiar with is a yellow powder or in safety matches etc. If sulphur is what keeps our injection systems lubed, then the switch to LDS or ULSD will necessitate the refiners adding something to replace it. There is probably no mandated standard for lubricity so it would be up to the individual refiner to concoct an additive mix to make up for the reduction in sulphur. Given the trend to common-rail injection systems with electro-mechanical injectors that operate with much higher pressures and need much tighter tolerances to generate & maintain those pressures,I sure hope the refiners get it right with the additives.
My understanding is the sulphur in the fuel acts as a lubricant for the injection pumps & injectors, both of which are machined to very tight tolerances and depend on the lubricity of the fuel to function and to last. How & why it works, I don't know - like Fred, the sulphur I'm familiar with is a yellow powder or in safety matches etc. If sulphur is what keeps our injection systems lubed, then the switch to LDS or ULSD will necessitate the refiners adding something to replace it. There is probably no mandated standard for lubricity so it would be up to the individual refiner to concoct an additive mix to make up for the reduction in sulphur. Given the trend to common-rail injection systems with electro-mechanical injectors that operate with much higher pressures and need much tighter tolerances to generate & maintain those pressures,I sure hope the refiners get it right with the additives.
I wonder what sulfur compound is involved
here? I know that it is not elemental sulfur. And the rest of the sulfur compounds involved surely involve hydrogen and carbon. None of the manufacturers of lubricants that I am aware of use sulfur based compounds as a basis for hi-tech lubricants. Sulfur is an excellent emulsifier allowing water to be mixed with oil for machining coolants.
here? I know that it is not elemental sulfur. And the rest of the sulfur compounds involved surely involve hydrogen and carbon. None of the manufacturers of lubricants that I am aware of use sulfur based compounds as a basis for hi-tech lubricants. Sulfur is an excellent emulsifier allowing water to be mixed with oil for machining coolants.
LSD vs ULSD
According to GM and Ford, I've talked to both, the new ULSD will have an additive that will perform the lubricity that the sulfur used to provide in the old LSD. I'm more concerned about my Duramax than the Yanmar. Translation...all diesels will be fine without any extra additives for lubrication.
According to GM and Ford, I've talked to both, the new ULSD will have an additive that will perform the lubricity that the sulfur used to provide in the old LSD. I'm more concerned about my Duramax than the Yanmar. Translation...all diesels will be fine without any extra additives for lubrication.
Ross re sulphur
I'm sure you've heard of Esso: they've been in the refining business for quite a while. Don't know if their products meet your definition of "hi-tech lubricants" but I'll quote a bit from a technical handbook they published giving all the specs etc for the whole spectrum of lubricants they produce. " Sulphur Content - In varying forms & concentrations, sulphur occurs in all crudes. Sulphur in special additive compounds can be highly beneficial to certain lubricating oils....................." It's a long, boreing & highly technical handbook that's over my head for the most part, but it does identify that sulphur is used. Unfortunately the book is about lubricants, not diesel fuel. It does refer to the negatives of sulphur as a by-product of combustion & as you've already mentioned in an earlier post. This doesn't shed any light on diesel fuels and the role sulphur plays in them and unfortunately I can't remember where I got the idea it acted as a lubricant for the injection systems.......maybe if you googled 'diesel fuel' ??
I'm sure you've heard of Esso: they've been in the refining business for quite a while. Don't know if their products meet your definition of "hi-tech lubricants" but I'll quote a bit from a technical handbook they published giving all the specs etc for the whole spectrum of lubricants they produce. " Sulphur Content - In varying forms & concentrations, sulphur occurs in all crudes. Sulphur in special additive compounds can be highly beneficial to certain lubricating oils....................." It's a long, boreing & highly technical handbook that's over my head for the most part, but it does identify that sulphur is used. Unfortunately the book is about lubricants, not diesel fuel. It does refer to the negatives of sulphur as a by-product of combustion & as you've already mentioned in an earlier post. This doesn't shed any light on diesel fuels and the role sulphur plays in them and unfortunately I can't remember where I got the idea it acted as a lubricant for the injection systems.......maybe if you googled 'diesel fuel' ??
A note from a diesel engine tech support guy
I handle tech support for a major engine company for Weatern Canada. Esso is alive and well in this part of the world. Canada supplies more oil to the USA than any other country. Alberta has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia. Having said all that. A great forum with a lot of concern. Some may be a bit of unwarranted concern, but sailors like us would rather have knowledge and be ready than have trouble with our engines. We went to low sulphur diesel fuel in the mid 80's and a few people had fuel pump seal leaks. All the engine manufacturers have engines running today on ultra low sulphur fuel. I don,t expect any trouble. I have a Catalina 30 with a Universal (Kubota) Diesel. I plan on doing nothing, other than regular maintenance (filter changes)and some fuel stabilizer to kill off those little microbes that like to grow in the tank. Keep your tanks full when parked and DONT WORRY. BE HAPPY. Fair winds Ken
I handle tech support for a major engine company for Weatern Canada. Esso is alive and well in this part of the world. Canada supplies more oil to the USA than any other country. Alberta has more oil reserves than Saudi Arabia. Having said all that. A great forum with a lot of concern. Some may be a bit of unwarranted concern, but sailors like us would rather have knowledge and be ready than have trouble with our engines. We went to low sulphur diesel fuel in the mid 80's and a few people had fuel pump seal leaks. All the engine manufacturers have engines running today on ultra low sulphur fuel. I don,t expect any trouble. I have a Catalina 30 with a Universal (Kubota) Diesel. I plan on doing nothing, other than regular maintenance (filter changes)and some fuel stabilizer to kill off those little microbes that like to grow in the tank. Keep your tanks full when parked and DONT WORRY. BE HAPPY. Fair winds Ken
Sulfur very Common
Sulfur is very common in biology. A lot of proteins and other compounds contain sulfur. So it makes sense that rotted dinosaurs greasy remains would contain sulfur. I hope that ULSD will help control microbial growth in fuel tanks. A lot of bacteria make their living oxidising and reducing sulfur compounds. In low oxygen coditions they reduce the sulfur to hydrogen sulfide(rotten egg smell) when oxygen is present they can oxidise it into sulfuric acid. I was reading something about ULSD and they apparently wash the diesel with water to get to low sulfur and then to get to ULSD they add oxidisers such as hydrogen peroxide to oxidise the sulfur and then do another wash. This washing process not only removes sulfur but also some of the lubricating compounds. Oxidised sulfur is much more soluble in water than reduced suldur. The sulfur compounds in diesel have varying oxidation states. It also seems that sulfur attached to a carbon compound makes the molecule stick to metal better providing a better coating preventing metal to metal contact. Biodiesel also has this property as the ester has oxygen molecules that also make it stick better to metal. Detergents are often just hydrocarbons simular to diesel fuel with a sulfate group stuck on the end. The hydrocarbon sticks to fats/grease and the sulfur pulls the stuff into water making an emulsion that washes off. Everyone probably knows this but if you have greasey hands from working on your diesel you can first wash your hands with vegetable oil and once that is mixed up add a little dishwashing detergent to wash it all off. It works much better than the detergent alone. theory is that the vegetable oil mixes with the grease to loosen it up and then it emulsifies better with the detergent and water. I have also went straight to wiping the veg oil grease off with a paper towel.
Sulfur is very common in biology. A lot of proteins and other compounds contain sulfur. So it makes sense that rotted dinosaurs greasy remains would contain sulfur. I hope that ULSD will help control microbial growth in fuel tanks. A lot of bacteria make their living oxidising and reducing sulfur compounds. In low oxygen coditions they reduce the sulfur to hydrogen sulfide(rotten egg smell) when oxygen is present they can oxidise it into sulfuric acid. I was reading something about ULSD and they apparently wash the diesel with water to get to low sulfur and then to get to ULSD they add oxidisers such as hydrogen peroxide to oxidise the sulfur and then do another wash. This washing process not only removes sulfur but also some of the lubricating compounds. Oxidised sulfur is much more soluble in water than reduced suldur. The sulfur compounds in diesel have varying oxidation states. It also seems that sulfur attached to a carbon compound makes the molecule stick to metal better providing a better coating preventing metal to metal contact. Biodiesel also has this property as the ester has oxygen molecules that also make it stick better to metal. Detergents are often just hydrocarbons simular to diesel fuel with a sulfate group stuck on the end. The hydrocarbon sticks to fats/grease and the sulfur pulls the stuff into water making an emulsion that washes off. Everyone probably knows this but if you have greasey hands from working on your diesel you can first wash your hands with vegetable oil and once that is mixed up add a little dishwashing detergent to wash it all off. It works much better than the detergent alone. theory is that the vegetable oil mixes with the grease to loosen it up and then it emulsifies better with the detergent and water. I have also went straight to wiping the veg oil grease off with a paper towel.
Time warp & lubricants/fuels
Sorry abt. your hair, Don The book IS old ('80) but diesel fuel & lubricant chemistry is a lot older than that, so even though it doesn't contain the latest thinking on the subject ( eg - zip on synthetic lubricants) there is no reason to assume the info. it does contain isn't valid today. Ross, I appreciate your motives: I like to find stuff out too and there is a lot of useful info. in a publication like that. One thing that caught my attention was a product made by Esso called "Kutwell 45" ; it's "a corrosion inhibitor for Water Cooling Systems of Marine Diesel Engines". There are a lot of other specialized products described that seldom if ever appear on the shelves of the retail outlets as they're aimed at large commercial users. I imagine that any major oil co. or refiner has a similar tech. handbook, or makes the information available on-line, though it's often difficult to get thru the consumer-oriented fluff and get into the solid technical data. Lastly, the chemistry & engineering issues re lubricants & fuels and the concerns we have abt. those issues are the same on both sides of the border. Some of the company names may be different ( Exxon vs Esso eg) and heaven knows the prices are higher in Canada, but the tech. stuff doesn't know or care what side of the border it's on.
Sorry abt. your hair, Don
The book IS old ('80) but diesel fuel & lubricant chemistry is a lot older than that, so even though it doesn't contain the latest thinking on the subject ( eg - zip on synthetic lubricants) there is no reason to assume the info. it does contain isn't valid today. Ross, I appreciate your motives: I like to find stuff out too and there is a lot of useful info. in a publication like that. One thing that caught my attention was a product made by Esso called "Kutwell 45" ; it's "a corrosion inhibitor for Water Cooling Systems of Marine Diesel Engines". There are a lot of other specialized products described that seldom if ever appear on the shelves of the retail outlets as they're aimed at large commercial users. I imagine that any major oil co. or refiner has a similar tech. handbook, or makes the information available on-line, though it's often difficult to get thru the consumer-oriented fluff and get into the solid technical data. Lastly, the chemistry & engineering issues re lubricants & fuels and the concerns we have abt. those issues are the same on both sides of the border. Some of the company names may be different ( Exxon vs Esso eg) and heaven knows the prices are higher in Canada, but the tech. stuff doesn't know or care what side of the border it's on.ULSD
According to an article by a guy who is in the fuel business with either Fed Ex or UPS, the new ULSD will come to the consumer with all the necessary lubrication (in place of sulfur) in it. His company has been using the new fuel for quite a while and routinely checks all new fuel loads...all have met the required specs.
According to an article by a guy who is in the fuel business with either Fed Ex or UPS, the new ULSD will come to the consumer with all the necessary lubrication (in place of sulfur) in it. His company has been using the new fuel for quite a while and routinely checks all new fuel loads...all have met the required specs.
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