Blue-Waters
- Thread starter jho11381
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jho,
I don't think there is a specific length when a Catalina becomes a "Bluewater" boat. People have many many different opinions on what makes a boat "bluewater" capable. Most of the time however, it is the skipper that determines if a boat is "bluewater" or not.
There have been countless boats that you and I both would not consider to be "bluewater" that have made succesfull bluewater trips without problems. There have also been several "bluewater" boats that have not completed their bluewater cruise and were lost do Davey Jones locker (the sea).
From what I have read and heard, I would personally not take anything less than a Catalina 27 on a bluewater cruise.
There have been several Catalina 22' that have made the "bluewater" crossing from FLorida to the Bahamas, but does that make them "bluewater" boats? I don't know, that is up to the skipper.
I personally own a Montgomery 17 which is considered to be a very seaworthy boat, and has been proven to be "bluewater" capable. One Montgomery 17 was successfully sailed half way around the world!
So it is all a matter f opinion.
I don't think there is a specific length when a Catalina becomes a "Bluewater" boat. People have many many different opinions on what makes a boat "bluewater" capable. Most of the time however, it is the skipper that determines if a boat is "bluewater" or not.
There have been countless boats that you and I both would not consider to be "bluewater" that have made succesfull bluewater trips without problems. There have also been several "bluewater" boats that have not completed their bluewater cruise and were lost do Davey Jones locker (the sea).
From what I have read and heard, I would personally not take anything less than a Catalina 27 on a bluewater cruise.
There have been several Catalina 22' that have made the "bluewater" crossing from FLorida to the Bahamas, but does that make them "bluewater" boats? I don't know, that is up to the skipper.
I personally own a Montgomery 17 which is considered to be a very seaworthy boat, and has been proven to be "bluewater" capable. One Montgomery 17 was successfully sailed half way around the world!
So it is all a matter f opinion.
Catalina Yachts has a differentiation on their own website about their boats.
www.catalinayachts.com
www.catalinayachts.com
From what I understand it that "blue water" boats have thicker hulls. I own a C22 and just from a storage point of view you could store enough to go trans Atlantic. But on the other hand I read a story of a man who sailed a Bayliner US yacht 18 from California to to Honolulu. So it can be done but I'm possibly looking for a thick hull sloop with a considerable amount of more room then my 22
Shane St Clair did a 28 day solo Pacific crossing of 2,500 miles from California to Hawaii aboard an Capri-18 in 1987. We have a guy in our club that sailed from San Diego to Hawaii on his 20' modified Vivacity. Read all about Dave's 29 day adventure, search on "Mini Bluewater". We routinely sailed out in the Pacific on our Capri-18, and now on our C-22, "but" I pay attention to the weather. We made a 68 mile crossing back from Catalina Island to Oceanside last summer, (Thanks you Raymarine for your Autohelm!). Personally, I would LOVE to take an adventure like this, but I would choose a Capri/Catalina-18 any day over a C-22 for the trip if I had to choose a small boat.
Don
Don
We sailed our Capri 22 through the San Juans and up to sucia island a couple summers ago. Not sure that's blue water but it's bigger than the lake we usually sail on. We were the smallest boat there. The only problem we had was getting waked by a big stinkpot on our lady day; we buried the bow and discovered I'd forgotten to close the forward hatch which was open about 1/2 inch.
While I wouldn't necessarily sail Verboten to Hawaii, I'd have no qualms about sailing to Catalina if we lived down there. Weather permitting, I hope to sail from Roche harbor, Port Angeles or Port Townsend to Victoria BC some day.
While I wouldn't necessarily sail Verboten to Hawaii, I'd have no qualms about sailing to Catalina if we lived down there. Weather permitting, I hope to sail from Roche harbor, Port Angeles or Port Townsend to Victoria BC some day.
I'm kinda surprised that a prudent sailor would ever recommend to a newby sailor that it was a good choice, or even plausible to recommend a Capri 17 or C 22 as a blue water capable boat. These boats are the antithesis of what a blue water boat stands for. Blue water stands for an ultra stout, seaworthy and sea kindly design and construction build quality, which is not what the C 18 or C 22 would ever be referred to be. They are really just daysailers, or occasional overnighters, or pocket cruisers at best. I thinks it's downright irresponsible to promote a boat as flimsy as these to be capable of something that they were never designed to do. I say this as a former owner of an O'Day 19, a C 22 a C 25, a S-2 28' & O'Day 35, amongst others. Just because U can do something silly, soesn't mean U should. People have also survived going over Niagra falls in a barrel, but that's not what anyone in their right mind would want to do. Life is too short to be tortured in big seas in a dinghy. Coming from a backgrounnd sailing in the Irish Sea, England's North Sea, Eastern Canada & the Atlantic, etc. its foolhearty to take a boat of less than 25 feet & insufficient ballast & keel weight into the Blue water Ocean & not invite disaster. There are a very few stout boat designs under 30 feet considered worthy of Blue Water capable, such as the Flicka, North Sea, BaBa, etc. & they are a breed apart in high quality and weatherly build. When U sail in waves that are taller then your mast height in a gale force not of your choosing, then you'd wish you were not in a Capri! Just my 2 cents.
I wonder what you mean by "blue water? Sailing outside the breakwater from an ocean side port is one thing. Sailing in the roaring forties or around Cape Horn is another. I've sailed all around the Southern California coast in an old Venture 25. I had a Meridian 26 that stood up to her sail better than my Hunter 30. I feel real comfortable in my Catalina 30TR. If there are two things I've learned, they are that excessive heeling is all show, no go , and that the time to shorten sail is when you first think about it. Do reefing drills before you are forced to do them in heavy weather. Put an extra clew and a reef in your lapper. Don't push your boat too hard. Things break. Let off on the gas by shortening sail. Don't jibe in real heavy weather. Use a safety line, preventer.
jho, Sometimes a "blue water boat" is confused with a coastal cruising boat.
Walk the docks at any marina that could reasonably expect to have transient sailboats passing through moored there or visit harbours like Marathon Florida where these boats congregate before sailing to the Bahamas and points further east.
What you will see are many true blue water boats. They will mostly run between 30 and 50 feet with most being in the range of 35 to 48 feet. And yes, there will sometimes be a C22. He won't be leading the pack on the crossing, nor will he keep up with the pack. What you will see in all the boats is usually a captain and crew with enough confidence to make their voyage. Something else you will see is that most of the boats are well kept, properly rigged and carrying way more than just required safety gear. You might even see a boat that would do her owner a favor if she simply sank right there where no would be endangered rescueing her crew.
A coastal cruiser is a boat that most of us sail while learning enough, to become good enough, to try being a blue water cruiser. My wife and I went from a Hunter 260 that taught us to sail to an Island Packet 38 that we lived on and blue water sailed. We looked at 4 to 6 boats a day for more that a month solid before we found our boat. If you have seen the difference between a H260 and an IP38 there is no doubt that one will go anywhere in confidence and the other might, but it wouldn't be hauling my butt while it did. The H260 is a wonderful boat but it lacks blue water "stout". The IP is stout. A C30 is stronger than the 260 and works well as a coastal cruiser and I would be willing to take a properly rigged and equiped C30 anywhere 60 to 100 miles offshore. To sail to Australia or England I still would fall back to "stout".
Hope this helps.
Ray
Walk the docks at any marina that could reasonably expect to have transient sailboats passing through moored there or visit harbours like Marathon Florida where these boats congregate before sailing to the Bahamas and points further east.
What you will see are many true blue water boats. They will mostly run between 30 and 50 feet with most being in the range of 35 to 48 feet. And yes, there will sometimes be a C22. He won't be leading the pack on the crossing, nor will he keep up with the pack. What you will see in all the boats is usually a captain and crew with enough confidence to make their voyage. Something else you will see is that most of the boats are well kept, properly rigged and carrying way more than just required safety gear. You might even see a boat that would do her owner a favor if she simply sank right there where no would be endangered rescueing her crew.
A coastal cruiser is a boat that most of us sail while learning enough, to become good enough, to try being a blue water cruiser. My wife and I went from a Hunter 260 that taught us to sail to an Island Packet 38 that we lived on and blue water sailed. We looked at 4 to 6 boats a day for more that a month solid before we found our boat. If you have seen the difference between a H260 and an IP38 there is no doubt that one will go anywhere in confidence and the other might, but it wouldn't be hauling my butt while it did. The H260 is a wonderful boat but it lacks blue water "stout". The IP is stout. A C30 is stronger than the 260 and works well as a coastal cruiser and I would be willing to take a properly rigged and equiped C30 anywhere 60 to 100 miles offshore. To sail to Australia or England I still would fall back to "stout".
Hope this helps.
Ray
I would have no issues at all, sailing my C25 as a coastal cruiser, keeping a close eye on the weather and staying close enough to seek shelter should I need it.
Would the boat survive out on the open ocean? Most likely, retrofitted with stronger chainplates and bulkhead reinforcements, a very competent captain (not me) and good stock of supplies. The voyages have been made on lesser boats, especially over our long, thousands of years of sailing history.
Would I take it out there? No.
My personal opinion (not worth much) on a blue water boat: Sturdy, well built full keel vessel with strong bulkheads, chainplates, heavy ballasted, diesel inboard, strong portlights, weather sealed topsides.
I don't mention a length....because some of these boats can be pretty small, like 27'....and go up from there. Me personally, I'd want one in the 38' range...comfort mainly. I'm 6'3 so I need the cabin height and bunk length. I'd HATE to be cooped up on a small boat for 30+ days making a long crossing...no matter how well built and capable it is.
Would the boat survive out on the open ocean? Most likely, retrofitted with stronger chainplates and bulkhead reinforcements, a very competent captain (not me) and good stock of supplies. The voyages have been made on lesser boats, especially over our long, thousands of years of sailing history.
Would I take it out there? No.
My personal opinion (not worth much) on a blue water boat: Sturdy, well built full keel vessel with strong bulkheads, chainplates, heavy ballasted, diesel inboard, strong portlights, weather sealed topsides.
I don't mention a length....because some of these boats can be pretty small, like 27'....and go up from there. Me personally, I'd want one in the 38' range...comfort mainly. I'm 6'3 so I need the cabin height and bunk length. I'd HATE to be cooped up on a small boat for 30+ days making a long crossing...no matter how well built and capable it is.
There's the saying, where there's a will there's a way. Anything can be done it U really put your mind to it. Although it helps to have the best boat & gear to help get U there in one piece, safely. That is really the point. Otherwise, why do we waste all of our time, money, & effort on boat maintenance as we do on websites that describe the pitfalls all to well, such as here. On the side of those carazy kids that try to sail to cape Horn, here's one such example: Matt Rutherford. This courageous guy sailed through the Northwest passage of the Artic, around the Americas, and is just now sailing around the great Horn as we speak. By the way, he is sailing non-stop in a vintage 1972 Albin Vega 27 footer. He wrote of how his dodger was ripped apart in the Bearing Straight, regularly has his cockpit flooded, but its OK cause he still has a paintball mask to ward off the spray! The guys got balls. & He's also sailing for a good cause. Cheers to him & I pray he makes it back home.
Read his blog here: http://www.solotheamericas.org/
Read his blog here: http://www.solotheamericas.org/
yeah, but unlike magellan and columbus, these characters are reliant on the rest of us to monitor and save them.
I hate to beat a topic to death, but here is an important resource that I have found to be very informative: www.bluewaterboats.com This is a fairly impartial review of many different blue water worthy cruising designed yachts. There is an overwhelming promotion of full keeled , double ender type old school sailboat designs shown, such as Bob Perry's classic Valiant 40, etc. They may be slow when compared to a new J boat, but these are all tried & true blue water cruisers. They don't mention some very tough boats, such as the venerable Cheoy Lee classic yachts or Gulfstar shoal draft cruisers, but its a pretty good clearinghouse of detailed reviews. Every boat is indeed a compromise in design & ablity. That said, I would have a tough time choosing just 1 boat to suit every need & desire. Its funny that well known surveyors such as Jack Hornor, who routinely busts on Catalina for not being tough enough, actually bought himself a Catalina 42 as a live aboard. Even he admitted that a Catalina is pretty tough to beat.
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