BLEACH????

[patrick]

John - think she would like a tee shirt?

On second thought, she is probably not your mop destroyer since she is equipped with a feather duster - at least it looks like a feather duster.I know I am in danger of drifting off the subject but some questions are unaviodable:What does one do with a feather duster on a boat?How big is your boat anyway? How many employees do you have aboard?Do all of your employees wear uniforms like this?Add a little bleach, some unknown French beer and who knows? It could be a lot of fun!!

 

[p323ms]

Rob maybe use a filter??

Backpacking I use a filter to filter out microbes from surface water. My boat has polyethylene tanks so we used chlorox but it tasted so bad that we only use the tank water for washing. But I am thinking about installing a filter to use for drinking. Poor Patrick has problems that none of us can solve. FWIW : Patrick buy a lot of beer and Jim Bean and go cruising for a few weeks or until you feel rational. Two rules for life might help. 1. Don't sweat the small stuff. 2. It's all small stuff.

 

[patrick]

p323ms

Nov 8 you say: "Chlorine is one of those miracle chemicals that make civilization possible. Without it we would have much more disease. Add sunlight to saltwater and you will produce some chlorine naturally!!!! "Two hours later: "I use it around the house and boat but the world would probably be a better place in some ways without chlorine."Which is it? Who is rational? You write like you have some knowledge but you reach conclusions which make no sense. Your emotional and dramatic terminology is out of place.If you read my questions, why not answer the serious ones? The others are just meant to be humorous sarcasm. I regret that I must explain that.I am withdrawing your purple heart bandaid nomination as I have concluded that your injury was self inflicted.FYI: I do not drink beer or wine or whiskey much more than a couple of drinks a year and really do not like its taste or its toxicity. Never have.As to my personal problems, you are actually right about that. Two tours of duty will do that to you. I have seen things and made choices you cannot even imagine. On this day, I think I am entitled to say that I and others like me have done that for the freedom of everyone including you.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Patrick,

Thank You, it's your day.

 

[p323ms]

I salute all veterans

Is it proper to salute myself??? I am a veteran.Both my brothers were in vietnam as were several first cousins. Two nephews were in desert storm. My son is a marine. My dad killed germans in africa and Italy. My uncle killed japanese all over the pacific. Another uncle killed germans and yet another uncle drove military trucks in burma.... I've heard a few war stories!!!!! My position on chlorine is consistent. Chlorine is a great disinfectant and has literally saved millions of lives from water borne diseases. But it does have some negative consequences. Children whose mothers are over thirty and drink chlorinated water have smaller head sizes than children of mothers who don't drink chlorinated water. This has to be balanced with the fact that the number one killer of children is diarhea caused by drinking dirty water!!! Life is simple only to simple minds!!!! BTW I have a masters degree in environmental health concentrating on water pollution control. But I've worked in biomedical research instead of public health for the last 22 years. The bottom line for me is that I use chlorine bleach when needed but use only as much as is needed.Whew!!!! Sorry to all that this discussion got out of hand. Sorry Patrick if I offended you.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Any chance you could use Iodine crystals

to purify Al tanks ? Don't know about chemistry of the thing but remembered carrying a small bottle of crystals to make Iodine concentrate to treat really bad water sources. Tasted terrible and required long Tx time. If you let it sit for a little and rinsed well. Or how about a couple boxes of those Polident Denture cleaning tablets, they work on inside of my thermos. Happy Veteran's Day Guys. Took my best friend sailing yesterday so we could salute friends lost. Watched an aircraft carrier in the distance working on the holiday.

 

[patrick]

Ted, I think that iodine

would behave very similar to chlorine and form salt crystals in a similar fashion.P323ms, apology accepted and I offer mine in return. Thanks for your service and to all of you other veterans as well.Without being so confrontational, I would like to ask what you mean that the world would be a better place without chlorine? Life itself would not even be possible without chlorine. It is a biological necessity as I understand it.You mentioned PCBs and DDT along with your concern about clorox. PCBs and DDT are not compounds which can occur as a result of misusing chlorox. You must know that. If you have the credentials you say, why make such a misleading statement. I have worked as a chemist for a few years myself but had to report all of my employers (mostly draft dodgers) for their egregious environmental practices. Sending thousands of drums of distillate residue from chlorinated phenol production to a private ranch for secret disposal is but one example. I think that most of the readers on this site have a similar commitment to environmental protection. It is not necessary to dramatize the issue. Some questions remain. Since we seem to have a number of knowledgable people present, what is a good alternative to bleach for disinfecting aluminum tanks? You can filter the aluminum salt but in my tank, the salt actually plugged up the tank outlet. The walls of the tank looked like they had a coating of barnicles.Oxygen seems to be a good choice since it presents a self limiting process in combination with aluminum. Hydrogen peroxide? Ozone bubbles? In situ electrolysis of the water itself? Some other biocidal compound come to mind?Actually Rob, I think that glycol would react with aluminum if heated enough. I do not know if it will react at room temperature.

 

[p323]

man made chlorine compounds

Patrick; Obviously I don't want to do away with natural chlorine. Organic reactions are messy. In organic lab we learned that most of the work in making a paricular compound is purification. Chlorine is a very reactive substance that will attack many other substances to get the electron it needs to complete an outer shell of electrons. We are now studying free radicals at my work. Specifically nitricoxide and it's reactions in transplanted kidneys. It tends to produce a chronic condition that ends with the loss of the kidney withn 10 years. There are so many reactions as the reactive molecules move to a lower engery state that people just don't know all that is happening. Chlorine is even more reactive!!! I honestly don't know all of the possible reactions of sodium hypochlorite. But it can make persistent organic compounds that are detrimental to the environment. Do a google search or go to any university library if you want to know more. Let's drop this topic. I visit this site to get away from science and talk about boats.Tom

 

[patrick]

Sorry - p323ms

You and Peggy brought up the toxic/witches brew issue in the first place. I have been a little strident in my response but don't take it so hard. I do not understand why you would drop it now. We all would like to see some data and it would really contribute to the knowledge level if you would give it a shot. It is a relevant contribution to all boaters who have an aluminum tank or want to disinfect their systems if you have something to add. I promise to try to play nice.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Since you asked, here's an interesting factsheet

from NSF regarding byproducts of disinfection of public water sources. Looks like UV treatment is most promising but I haven't looked at what's available yet.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

The devil's advocate site for chlorination (link)

This site is operated by C3 (chlorine chemistry council), the chlorine manufacturer's advocate group. In other words: not exactly Green Peace..... Clearly the information provided by them about the known risks of chlorine-based water desinfection is about as conservative as it gets.Nevertheless, the various articles on this site do not deny the formation of halomethanes and other toxic by-products but rather point out that the risk can be reduced by keeping organic contaminant concentrations as low as possible and using a final dechlorination step. Of course, this is all good and well for drinkwater chlorination but makes chlorination of organic-rich wastewater, including sewage, look all the more ridiculous....Have fun!Flying Dutchman

 

[patrick]

More drama

"Devils advocate", "witches brew", "toxic", "lethal", "conservative", "natural chlorine". Henk, it is an interesting site but what are you trying to say? How is it relevant to my boat? If I use chlorox, does that make me a "devil" or a "witch", too? Is there a kinder, gentler, more sensitive, natural chlorine that I should use to be a good person? I am trying to understand and become a better person and be nice, too. Help me solve my problems, won't you? There is hope. I have stopped asking about French beer.

 

[lorien]

Ah, Patrick *lol*

Having no interest in this discussion (other than looking at it, seeing how many responses it had and wondering WTH), i can honestly say that anyone who can stir the pot as well as you do surely IS the devil himself!! Bleach is for whites and colorfast items only, that's my story and i'm sticking to it. *adjusts stocking seams and tucks blonde hair under cap as she waves her duster over her boat teak*

 

[patrick]

Lorien

I have to ask...Are you French?Not to worry, my wife says she doesn't care - French, blonde, brunette, bleached, dyed or whatever - I can't have one.I told her that a feather duster could be really useful on our boat. She did not respond.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

OK, Patrick, let me try to clarify this for you

In the simplest of terms; this is what it means for your boat:Whenever you use your head don't use chlorox but whenever you use chlorox always use your head.For the more difficult terms, such as "devil's advocate" and "witches' brew" just use some of the many online dictionaries.Have fun,Flying Dutchman