Ok here is a question going out to all you chemistry buffs. I just saw a show last night on the invention of bleach......amazing stuff...it was all about how it was discovered then rifined and created to be todays wonder cleaner...we all use it... I have heard good and bad...I have heard at all costs keep out of the surounding water because it will hurt the enviornment. The program I was watching said that this is a huge myth......That Bleach after it is mixed with water turns mostly into Salt Water??.......Does anyone have any response to this???....they call it the ultimate recycle cleaner it is dirived from salt water then returns to its natural state after use. Now at the end I did notice that the main sponsor was......"CLOROX" Thoughts??
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Good Question
Interested to hear what others have to say but I understood that bleach quickly broke down and lost its toxicity after a short time. I understood that sunlight or just exposure to air, not sure which, caused its breakdown. I never heard anywhere that it would remain toxic?
Interested to hear what others have to say but I understood that bleach quickly broke down and lost its toxicity after a short time. I understood that sunlight or just exposure to air, not sure which, caused its breakdown. I never heard anywhere that it would remain toxic?
chlorinated hydrocarbons
Under certain conditions chlorine can combine with organic materials making fairly persistant toxic materials. This is what happens when they bleach wood pulp for paper. On the other hand by most state laws chlorine must be added to treated sewage before it is returned to our rivers. You would have to do a lot of cleaning to have the kind of impact in a lifetime that a small city has daily. Chlorine is one of those miracle chemicals that make civilization possible. Without it we would have much more disease. Add sunlight to saltwater and you will produce some chlorine naturally!!!!
Under certain conditions chlorine can combine with organic materials making fairly persistant toxic materials. This is what happens when they bleach wood pulp for paper. On the other hand by most state laws chlorine must be added to treated sewage before it is returned to our rivers. You would have to do a lot of cleaning to have the kind of impact in a lifetime that a small city has daily. Chlorine is one of those miracle chemicals that make civilization possible. Without it we would have much more disease. Add sunlight to saltwater and you will produce some chlorine naturally!!!!
Chlorine Bleach
There are two types of bleach - chlorine and oxygen (e.g. peroxide). The link describes household (chlorine)bleach.
There are two types of bleach - chlorine and oxygen (e.g. peroxide). The link describes household (chlorine)bleach.
There are several kinds of chlorine
The chlorine in bleach is sodium hypochlorite...the chlorine produced by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current is hypochlorous acid...and there are a few other types of chlorine. Although hypochlorous acid reverts to salt water when the stimulus (electrical current) is removed, it was salt water to start with...I've never heard of household bleach turning into salt in water before. Toxic?? It all depends on how you define toxic. In sufficient concentration, chlorine kills bacteria...so it's toxic to them until the "toxic" properties evaporate, which takes about 24 hours. It's also HIGHLY corrosive and damaging to rubber...and that does not go away. Which is why bleach has no place on a boat except to recommission fresh water systems annually.
The chlorine in bleach is sodium hypochlorite...the chlorine produced by charging the ions in salt water with electrical current is hypochlorous acid...and there are a few other types of chlorine. Although hypochlorous acid reverts to salt water when the stimulus (electrical current) is removed, it was salt water to start with...I've never heard of household bleach turning into salt in water before. Toxic?? It all depends on how you define toxic. In sufficient concentration, chlorine kills bacteria...so it's toxic to them until the "toxic" properties evaporate, which takes about 24 hours. It's also HIGHLY corrosive and damaging to rubber...and that does not go away. Which is why bleach has no place on a boat except to recommission fresh water systems annually.
very misleading link
Chlorine is a very powerful chemical and when mixed with organic compounds can make a witches brew of toxic chemicals. Try mixing chlorox with your urine!!!! The fumes are very poisonus!!! By organic compounds I mean the crud that's growing in your bilge!!! Everything living is made up of organic materials. Chlorine bleach is not harmless!!! I use it around the house and boat but the world would probably be a better place in some ways without chlorine. On the other hand it is the only practical way to disinfect public drinking water. The only cleaner that probably has no detrimental effects on the environment is "elbow grease". Of course we all avoid using elbow grease!!!!
Chlorine is a very powerful chemical and when mixed with organic compounds can make a witches brew of toxic chemicals. Try mixing chlorox with your urine!!!! The fumes are very poisonus!!! By organic compounds I mean the crud that's growing in your bilge!!! Everything living is made up of organic materials. Chlorine bleach is not harmless!!! I use it around the house and boat but the world would probably be a better place in some ways without chlorine. On the other hand it is the only practical way to disinfect public drinking water. The only cleaner that probably has no detrimental effects on the environment is "elbow grease". Of course we all avoid using elbow grease!!!!
Misleading comments and terminology
Bleach is a very broad and very general term referring to many, many highly reactive generally highly electronegative chemical substances or something which releases same. "Bleaches" include chlorine or oxygen or other halogen gasses, certain salts which will release chlorine, or oxygen, etc. in solution ie: sodium hypochlorite, etc., certain other compounds like oxalic acid, acetic acid, many other acids, hydrogen peroxide, carbonates, borates, isocyanurates, sulfur dioxide, ultraviolet light, and on and on... Toxicity is another very misused and misunderstood term. Water is toxic, salt is toxic, plutonium is toxic, and on and on and on... Substances which exhibit a particular chemical effect ie: corrosivity or toxicity do not loose that effect - ever. Said substances may react with some other chemical and thus both become another (ie: different)chemical or chemicals which will probably have some other toxicity. It may be reduced or not by this process. To ask if bleach is toxic or to assert same is to ask or (assert that you know) how deep the ocean is without knowing where and is just as meaningless. Generally speaking, bleach works to "whiten" or lighten the shade of some organic material by reacting with molecules which give it the "color" in the first place. Bleach works to kill bacteria (and other life forms) by reacting with the chemicals in the bacteria which are necessary for it to live. Once it reacts, it is no longer "bleach" and it is highly reactive. It doesn't hang around very long in the environment and therefore usually has a very localized and limited effect when released. It forms salts and organochlorides, etc. My most regretable bleach experience is with the "bleach" in my previously aluminum water tanks. Aluminum is a highly reactive metal. I say just do not ever use sodium hypochlorite in your aluminum water tanks, never ever - others stupidly disagree. You might be ok to use hydrogen peroxide or similar more acidic "bleaches" for disinfecting aluminum but I will not be conducting that experiment. I note that there seems to be a general lack of interest in anything like practical or meaningful discussion which might actually help us to disinfect aluminum without corroding it. To say that we would be better off without chlorine is to say that we would be better off without salt. That is simply idiotic. Life as we know it would not exist without chlorine. A reference to a "witches brew" of chemicals is just another one of many meaningless and superstitious terms. My advice to that commentator is "get a grip". A specific question can be answered but I am not going to even attempt to understand such a comment or question. You guys can all do better than this! What about having some fun and lets discuss French bleach, or bleach in beer, blondes, or something a guy in a bar can deal with. Try google and search for bleach. You can and will come up with something funny if you only try.
Bleach is a very broad and very general term referring to many, many highly reactive generally highly electronegative chemical substances or something which releases same. "Bleaches" include chlorine or oxygen or other halogen gasses, certain salts which will release chlorine, or oxygen, etc. in solution ie: sodium hypochlorite, etc., certain other compounds like oxalic acid, acetic acid, many other acids, hydrogen peroxide, carbonates, borates, isocyanurates, sulfur dioxide, ultraviolet light, and on and on... Toxicity is another very misused and misunderstood term. Water is toxic, salt is toxic, plutonium is toxic, and on and on and on... Substances which exhibit a particular chemical effect ie: corrosivity or toxicity do not loose that effect - ever. Said substances may react with some other chemical and thus both become another (ie: different)chemical or chemicals which will probably have some other toxicity. It may be reduced or not by this process. To ask if bleach is toxic or to assert same is to ask or (assert that you know) how deep the ocean is without knowing where and is just as meaningless. Generally speaking, bleach works to "whiten" or lighten the shade of some organic material by reacting with molecules which give it the "color" in the first place. Bleach works to kill bacteria (and other life forms) by reacting with the chemicals in the bacteria which are necessary for it to live. Once it reacts, it is no longer "bleach" and it is highly reactive. It doesn't hang around very long in the environment and therefore usually has a very localized and limited effect when released. It forms salts and organochlorides, etc. My most regretable bleach experience is with the "bleach" in my previously aluminum water tanks. Aluminum is a highly reactive metal. I say just do not ever use sodium hypochlorite in your aluminum water tanks, never ever - others stupidly disagree. You might be ok to use hydrogen peroxide or similar more acidic "bleaches" for disinfecting aluminum but I will not be conducting that experiment. I note that there seems to be a general lack of interest in anything like practical or meaningful discussion which might actually help us to disinfect aluminum without corroding it. To say that we would be better off without chlorine is to say that we would be better off without salt. That is simply idiotic. Life as we know it would not exist without chlorine. A reference to a "witches brew" of chemicals is just another one of many meaningless and superstitious terms. My advice to that commentator is "get a grip". A specific question can be answered but I am not going to even attempt to understand such a comment or question. You guys can all do better than this! What about having some fun and lets discuss French bleach, or bleach in beer, blondes, or something a guy in a bar can deal with. Try google and search for bleach. You can and will come up with something funny if you only try.
Does not last long.
Rob: When I was a kid (long, long ago) we had a swimming pool. The pool held about 40,000 gal. of water. We would pour approx. 1 gal. of Chlorine every other day to maintain a specific level for disinfectant. I do not know what the difference is between Chlorine and laundry bleach, but I can tell you that there is a lot of difference in the potency. After several years the water would have a salty taste and would need to be drained and replentished. So if you are asking about pouring a couple of cups of bleach in a bucket of hot/soapy water and then pumping this overboard I really would not worry about it. I doubt that even the fish would notice it.
Rob: When I was a kid (long, long ago) we had a swimming pool. The pool held about 40,000 gal. of water. We would pour approx. 1 gal. of Chlorine every other day to maintain a specific level for disinfectant. I do not know what the difference is between Chlorine and laundry bleach, but I can tell you that there is a lot of difference in the potency. After several years the water would have a salty taste and would need to be drained and replentished. So if you are asking about pouring a couple of cups of bleach in a bucket of hot/soapy water and then pumping this overboard I really would not worry about it. I doubt that even the fish would notice it.
When I was young it was common practice
to hunt octopus at low tide by pouring household bleach on a likely spot to make the octopus come out and get hooked. Also a practice to dump a gallon in the old boat bath (a plastic slip liner) very time you put the boat back in. Both practices rightfully outlawed by various agencies.
to hunt octopus at low tide by pouring household bleach on a likely spot to make the octopus come out and get hooked. Also a practice to dump a gallon in the old boat bath (a plastic slip liner) very time you put the boat back in. Both practices rightfully outlawed by various agencies.
Inorganic versus organic chemistry
When you are dealing with inorganic chemistry and you dump sodium hypochlorite(chlorox) into clean water the (chlorox) breaks down pretty harmlessly into harmless salts. But when you mix organic compounds things get more interesting. I referred to a witches brew because chlorine is a very reactive molecule that will react with a lot of substances. It will react with DNA,proteins,alcohols, thiols etc etc. Exactly what end products are produced depends upon exactly what is present and the reaction conditions. The biggest problem is that many of these compounds are fat soluble and tend to collect in living organisms. DTT,PCB's most first generation pesticides are all organic compounds that are made toxic by adding chlorine. If you use chlorox will you kill the ocean??? No way!!! But long term we are probably making toxic materials that will come back to us when we eat our tuna sushi. We are robust and can tolerate pretty high levels of toxic materials but there are probably health effects. I don't lose any sleep of this stuff but do drink bottled water to try and avoid the trihalomethane that is produced when the public water supply is chlorinated to protect me from infectious disease.
When you are dealing with inorganic chemistry and you dump sodium hypochlorite(chlorox) into clean water the (chlorox) breaks down pretty harmlessly into harmless salts. But when you mix organic compounds things get more interesting. I referred to a witches brew because chlorine is a very reactive molecule that will react with a lot of substances. It will react with DNA,proteins,alcohols, thiols etc etc. Exactly what end products are produced depends upon exactly what is present and the reaction conditions. The biggest problem is that many of these compounds are fat soluble and tend to collect in living organisms. DTT,PCB's most first generation pesticides are all organic compounds that are made toxic by adding chlorine. If you use chlorox will you kill the ocean??? No way!!! But long term we are probably making toxic materials that will come back to us when we eat our tuna sushi. We are robust and can tolerate pretty high levels of toxic materials but there are probably health effects. I don't lose any sleep of this stuff but do drink bottled water to try and avoid the trihalomethane that is produced when the public water supply is chlorinated to protect me from infectious disease.
The term "witches brew"
is what I object to. It is emotional nonsense. There are virtually no common organic or inorganic chemical substances in the natural environment which will react with sodium hypochlorite to produce any meaningful quantity of "toxic" substance of any concern. Trihalomethane is such a small concentration in the products of environmental reactions with hypochlorite that it is preposterous to call it "toxic". To compare anything produced by environmental release of sodium hypochlorite with DDT or PCB or similar compounds only illustrates your ignorance of the conditions necessary to produce those kinds of things as well as the subject in general. Your response and that or some others is emotional and political not scientific. I will bet you one Viet Cong Veterans for Kerry tee shirt that you do not know what Purex is short for without looking it up. In short: There is only one kind of chlorine. There are many things ( millions )which fall in the category of "bleach". It is a bad idea to put common household bleach into your aluminum water or holding tanks or around any metals including stainsless steel. Bleach does not magically loose its corrosive properties in 24 hours unless it reacts with something. It does loose its biotoxicity (disinfection property) when it has reacted with something. Do not mix chlorox with your urine. It is not polite. It is probably not a good idea to pour chlorox onto octopii. We probably have a treaty with some intergalactic united planetary organization which makes that a chemical weapon of mass destruction. You will be arrested by some of the characters seen in the Star Wars bar. Just don't forget that you have the right to remain silent. I doubt that there is one chlorinated hydrocarbon produced by environmental chlorox which has ever been noted in sushi. If we did not use bleach in some ways, more people would suffer from a variety of illnesses. I for one would appreciate it if writers would not use the word "toxic" if they do not know how to qualify the term. Otherwise it is just emotional gibberish. Anybody know a good French blonde joke?
is what I object to. It is emotional nonsense. There are virtually no common organic or inorganic chemical substances in the natural environment which will react with sodium hypochlorite to produce any meaningful quantity of "toxic" substance of any concern. Trihalomethane is such a small concentration in the products of environmental reactions with hypochlorite that it is preposterous to call it "toxic". To compare anything produced by environmental release of sodium hypochlorite with DDT or PCB or similar compounds only illustrates your ignorance of the conditions necessary to produce those kinds of things as well as the subject in general. Your response and that or some others is emotional and political not scientific. I will bet you one Viet Cong Veterans for Kerry tee shirt that you do not know what Purex is short for without looking it up. In short: There is only one kind of chlorine. There are many things ( millions )which fall in the category of "bleach". It is a bad idea to put common household bleach into your aluminum water or holding tanks or around any metals including stainsless steel. Bleach does not magically loose its corrosive properties in 24 hours unless it reacts with something. It does loose its biotoxicity (disinfection property) when it has reacted with something. Do not mix chlorox with your urine. It is not polite. It is probably not a good idea to pour chlorox onto octopii. We probably have a treaty with some intergalactic united planetary organization which makes that a chemical weapon of mass destruction. You will be arrested by some of the characters seen in the Star Wars bar. Just don't forget that you have the right to remain silent. I doubt that there is one chlorinated hydrocarbon produced by environmental chlorox which has ever been noted in sushi. If we did not use bleach in some ways, more people would suffer from a variety of illnesses. I for one would appreciate it if writers would not use the word "toxic" if they do not know how to qualify the term. Otherwise it is just emotional gibberish. Anybody know a good French blonde joke?
My recipe for witches brew
Every once in a while my employees decide to improve the floor soap by adding Clorox; whatever goop it produces means I'm buying new mops. I never tasted it so I don't know if its toxic, but it doesn't clean floors.
Every once in a while my employees decide to improve the floor soap by adding Clorox; whatever goop it produces means I'm buying new mops. I never tasted it so I don't know if its toxic, but it doesn't clean floors.
Give em Hell Patrick!
Great thinking! I bet you have had one of those birkenstock wearing, tree hugging panty sniffers say your personality is "toxic".. One thing you cannot make them do is think it through! They operate on pure estrogen. Unfortunatly our NW is infested with them.
Great thinking! I bet you have had one of those birkenstock wearing, tree hugging panty sniffers say your personality is "toxic".. One thing you cannot make them do is think it through! They operate on pure estrogen. Unfortunatly our NW is infested with them.
Concentration and environment usually
determine a hazardous material, the classic example being a tanker truck of milk in a trout stream, milk will kill fish in high enough concentrations so the milk is a hazmat. If 1 person dumped a gallon of household bleach in the middle of the Pacific the impact would be minimal, if everyone in a marina dumped a gallon the impact would be pronounced, at least locally. I quit boats for twenty years and 1 thing that really struck me when I started sailing again was how many fish there are in the marina now. I'm as disturbed as others by some kinds of environmental forklore I see being passed off as science, the other day a load of kids on a boat run by the local school districts passed me on the way in and I heard the expert on the loudspeaker say how men were the biggest threat to the cute dolphins they just saw, and whales with our nets. "Remember kids, a thousand dolphins a day die in nets!" Unfortunately not many of those kids are going to think "that's 365,000 dolphin a year! Is that possible? wouldn't they already be extinct with a mortality rate like that? Are they having litters of young to compensate? Not everything has an answer, sometimes just "the lesser of two weevils" that each must choose for themselves.
determine a hazardous material, the classic example being a tanker truck of milk in a trout stream, milk will kill fish in high enough concentrations so the milk is a hazmat. If 1 person dumped a gallon of household bleach in the middle of the Pacific the impact would be minimal, if everyone in a marina dumped a gallon the impact would be pronounced, at least locally. I quit boats for twenty years and 1 thing that really struck me when I started sailing again was how many fish there are in the marina now. I'm as disturbed as others by some kinds of environmental forklore I see being passed off as science, the other day a load of kids on a boat run by the local school districts passed me on the way in and I heard the expert on the loudspeaker say how men were the biggest threat to the cute dolphins they just saw, and whales with our nets. "Remember kids, a thousand dolphins a day die in nets!" Unfortunately not many of those kids are going to think "that's 365,000 dolphin a year! Is that possible? wouldn't they already be extinct with a mortality rate like that? Are they having litters of young to compensate? Not everything has an answer, sometimes just "the lesser of two weevils" that each must choose for themselves.
So, there you have it, Rob
You should check out the post on DiHydrogen Monoxide. Much more toxic than bleach, which by the way, I dump into my septic system twice a week and the bugs are still alive.
You should check out the post on DiHydrogen Monoxide. Much more toxic than bleach, which by the way, I dump into my septic system twice a week and the bugs are still alive.
Furthur Fodder
Thank you everyone for the fiery input truly enlightening and enjoyable.....Patrick, You bring up a very good point: Quote: "My most regrettable bleach experience is with the "bleach" in my previously aluminum water tanks. Aluminum is a highly reactive metal. I say just do not ever use sodium hypochlorite in your aluminum water tanks, never ever - others stupidly disagree. You might be ok to use hydrogen peroxide or similar more acidic "bleaches" for disinfecting aluminum but I will not be conducting that experiment. I note that there seems to be a general lack of interest in anything like practical or meaningful discussion which might actually help us to disinfect aluminum without corroding it." Patrick, Speaking on that topic. What then would be good to disinfect aluminum water tanks???...I have 2 on board and everyone has been saying just add a little bleach and rinse.......and related to winterizing.....we are adding Propylene Glycol antifreeze in these aluminum tanks...how does this effect the longevity of these tanks and How does bleach or Hydrogen Peroxid react with this?? Thanks Rob How does
Thank you everyone for the fiery input truly enlightening and enjoyable.....Patrick, You bring up a very good point: Quote: "My most regrettable bleach experience is with the "bleach" in my previously aluminum water tanks. Aluminum is a highly reactive metal. I say just do not ever use sodium hypochlorite in your aluminum water tanks, never ever - others stupidly disagree. You might be ok to use hydrogen peroxide or similar more acidic "bleaches" for disinfecting aluminum but I will not be conducting that experiment. I note that there seems to be a general lack of interest in anything like practical or meaningful discussion which might actually help us to disinfect aluminum without corroding it." Patrick, Speaking on that topic. What then would be good to disinfect aluminum water tanks???...I have 2 on board and everyone has been saying just add a little bleach and rinse.......and related to winterizing.....we are adding Propylene Glycol antifreeze in these aluminum tanks...how does this effect the longevity of these tanks and How does bleach or Hydrogen Peroxid react with this?? Thanks Rob How does
John, is your employee a French blonde?
Paul - those pantywaists would not dare to say anything like that to my face. If I seem cranky, you should hear what I really think when I am not short on sleep due to looking for some idiots carelessly discarded EPIRB. (It turned out to be a defective 406 model and we are looking for the owner.) Ted, better lay off the octupus hunting for a while or maybe you could use Coke or Pepsi instead of clorox. Besides that, how dare you call milk toxic? p323ms - Purex is short for plutonium refining and extraction - a reference to a facility which produced a well known ingredient in nukes. Sorry, since you did not answer, no Viet Cong Veterans shirt for you. You probably do qualify for a purple heart bandaid though for internet injury. Reudi, it is not clear which thing you put into your septic system - bleach or dihydrogenmonoxide? Is your name French? Rob - we had a discussion a few months back on this subject and there was no generally agreed or proposed alternative to bleach except that I think something like hydrogen peroxide would be less corrosive to aluminum. Peroxide would react with the aluminum too but it would form a thin layer which would stop further reaction from taking place. Another useless tidbit on aluminum in food - in WW2, some GIs would heat up alcoholic drinks in their aluminum canteens. As I am told, some of them died from the aluminum ethoxide which was created by the ethanol reacting with the hot aluminum. The aluminum tank manufacturers have come up with an ANSI standard "commissioning" process. I still have not read the actual ANSI document since it is only available to those who pay them for it. I know that I will not use it so I am not wasting my money. I have had no other constructive response on this subject. As to glycols, ethylene glycol is actually less of a concern environmentally but it does have some toxic effect on mammals. Propylene glycol is found in soda pop so I guess it is ok to drink if you want to - just don't overdo it! I doubt that in the aqueous environment and likely concentrations, that the bleach will react with the glycol but I am not completely sure. You could look it up or you could just rinse out one before adding the other. Now what about a good French beer recommendation?
Paul - those pantywaists would not dare to say anything like that to my face. If I seem cranky, you should hear what I really think when I am not short on sleep due to looking for some idiots carelessly discarded EPIRB. (It turned out to be a defective 406 model and we are looking for the owner.) Ted, better lay off the octupus hunting for a while or maybe you could use Coke or Pepsi instead of clorox. Besides that, how dare you call milk toxic? p323ms - Purex is short for plutonium refining and extraction - a reference to a facility which produced a well known ingredient in nukes. Sorry, since you did not answer, no Viet Cong Veterans shirt for you. You probably do qualify for a purple heart bandaid though for internet injury. Reudi, it is not clear which thing you put into your septic system - bleach or dihydrogenmonoxide? Is your name French? Rob - we had a discussion a few months back on this subject and there was no generally agreed or proposed alternative to bleach except that I think something like hydrogen peroxide would be less corrosive to aluminum. Peroxide would react with the aluminum too but it would form a thin layer which would stop further reaction from taking place. Another useless tidbit on aluminum in food - in WW2, some GIs would heat up alcoholic drinks in their aluminum canteens. As I am told, some of them died from the aluminum ethoxide which was created by the ethanol reacting with the hot aluminum. The aluminum tank manufacturers have come up with an ANSI standard "commissioning" process. I still have not read the actual ANSI document since it is only available to those who pay them for it. I know that I will not use it so I am not wasting my money. I have had no other constructive response on this subject. As to glycols, ethylene glycol is actually less of a concern environmentally but it does have some toxic effect on mammals. Propylene glycol is found in soda pop so I guess it is ok to drink if you want to - just don't overdo it! I doubt that in the aqueous environment and likely concentrations, that the bleach will react with the glycol but I am not completely sure. You could look it up or you could just rinse out one before adding the other. Now what about a good French beer recommendation?
She isn't blonde but
the uniform does make me think she might be French. She does a great job on the saloon and galley at any rate.
the uniform does make me think she might be French. She does a great job on the saloon and galley at any rate.
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