Black Widow vs VC-17M?

[BarryL]

Hi,

It's great to read about racing! My season is over, so this is better than winterizing the boat. Anyway, as you realize, using a faster bottom paint is WAY down your list of how to improve.

Some questions / comments I have are:
1. Starts - how are yours? I see sooo many boats starting 5, 10,15 seconds late. Those are seconds you can never get back! If you're not on time, work on that before anything else. Once you are consistently on time you can work on more advanced strategies like starting at the favored side of the line, pushing competitors out of the way, anticipating a shift, etc.

2. Sails - if your sails are not in great shape you are fighting a losing battle. Yes sails are expensive, but you can't expect the boat to go upwind well if you sails are not right. A baggy sail won't allow the boat to point and pointing (with boat speed) is EVERYTHING for going to windward. You mention changing headsails. In the Jib And Main (JAM) class I have never seen boats change headsails for upwind / downwind legs. If you can change to a larger sail for downwind work that would be great, but, in my mind, it's almost cheating.

3. Rig setup and sail adjustments. - You need to make sure rig is properly tuned. You MAY want to change the rig tune for your conditions. The best one design boats always do this. Most PHRF boats (including the boats I race on) do not. The major exception is the backstay - most boats have adjustable backstays and you must be changing it for the wind conditions and the leg you are on. You also must be adjusting the halyard tension, outhaui, sheet leads (huge difference between upwind, reaching, and running), etc.

4. Whisker pole - If you are serious in the JAM class you need to use a whisker pole on the downwind leg. You need to be able to deploy it quickly, jibe it when necessary and drop it very quickly.

5. Navigation - if your sailing area has currents you need to know how they are running during the race. You should be using some electronics to help you. I can't tell you have many times I see boats that AIMED at the mark, but don't make it because they misread the current. You should be able to use a simple GPS device to understand the difference between heading and course.

6. Crew work

7. Race tactics

8...

Once you have those items under control you can look for some additional improvements by changing bottom paint, light air sheets, reduced weight blocks w soft shackles, etc.

Lastly, my boat weighs around 18,000 lbs. I don't worry about a few lbs here and there. Before a big race I will remove the heavy anchor and rode and sail w one light weight aluminum anchor with lighter rode. I'll remove the cockpit cushions, gas grill, sails that wont be needed, etc. I don't worry about pots and pans, beer in the fridge, etc. if I had a light boat i might more diligent about weight savings.

Barry

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It’s not hard to figure out the effect of a different handicap in PHRF either, especially if the race is scored time on distance. You just need the corrected times and course length. Just subtract your current handicap from the one you hope to get, and multiply the result by the course length. That result is how many seconds your corrected time would go down.

I must be missing something but I don't get it at all why it would be helpful to know results with a different rating. If a different rating is supposedly based on a 110 jib rather than a 150 genoa, then how can you base this analysis on an assumption of the same time with a different sail? You have to know what your time would be based on using a 110 jib. That's impossible.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes, I should have included that in my list of considerations. Tallying up all the "non-essentials", I figure I could realistically lighten the boat by around 120 lbs. This is about 3.37% of the total weight of the boat and crew. I wonder just how much difference that would actually make.

Even 120 pounds off may be a greater factor than the difference in paint, especially if your hull-cleaning habits don't change. But I suspect that if you really get serious about weight, you could triple that weight reduction without much additional effort.

 

[dlochner]

This thread has morphed (appropriately) away from the question of stripping and re-doing the bottom coat (I will not for now). Something I have decided to do in the off season is remove everything possible from inside the boat and weigh it (rather than guessing weight as I have been doing). From there I will try to devise a plan for what goes back on and under what circumstances. Our boat is also our camper, so I have to strike a balance between what to keep on the boat and what to load on when we go out overnight. Should be interesting...

A cautionary tale about weight.

A few years back I was crewing on a J24 with a very competitive and talented skipper in a regatta. We were neck and neck on an upwind leg against a well known and even more talented skipper when the clevis pin for the forestay exited the boat. That wasn't too big of an issue because the jib halyard and luff were supporting the mast. The foredeck called back for a new clevis and ring and tools. The skipper's response was "They're not on board." The only tools he had were ones he used to tune the mast, an adjustable wrench and a screwdriver.

Fortunately, the jib had a Cunningham and we were able to use the Cunningham hook to secure the forestay. Why weren't there spare clevis pins and a few more tools? Too much weight.

We finished the regatta in second or third place. Not bad for the near disaster on a boat racing under the name "Grumpy Old Men."

For the want of a nail, the kingdom was lost.

 

[dlochner]

I must be missing something but I don't get it at all why it would be helpful to know results with a different rating. If a different rating is supposedly based on a 110 jib rather than a 150 genoa, then how can you base this analysis on an assumption of the same time with a different sail? You have to know what your time would be based on using a 110 jib. That's impossible.

In the race the OP described, he did not use the 150, only the 110. The boat's rating is based on the the sails available and onboard. Since he didn't use the 150, scoring the race again with the 110 rating is a fair comparison. Had he used the 150, then it would give meaningful data. In most clubs the boat is assigned a rating at the beginning of the season and it is not reviewed again unless new sails are purchased or added, so he can not change his rating in the actual race.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

In the race the OP described, he did not use the 150, only the 110. The boat's rating is based on the the sails available and onboard. Since he didn't use the 150, scoring the race again with the 110 rating is a fair comparison. Had he used the 150, then it would give meaningful data. In most clubs the boat is assigned a rating at the beginning of the season and it is not reviewed again unless new sails are purchased or added, so he can not change his rating in the actual race.

That's what I was missing! I was thinking that he sailed with 150 sail. For sure, it makes one re-consider the choice of sails for the race. Did the conditions preclude using a 150 all the time? With my masthead rig, I always reef the main before reducing head sail size. During my last several outings, I used my 150 with reefed main and the balance was very good. My 135 is in for repairs, now, so that settled that!

 

[jssailem]

I have to strike a balance between what to keep on the boat and what to load on when we go out overnight.

Good plan. Perhaps during the season you have a sailor's box that contains the needed items for overnight cruising. It rests ashore till the appointed time. Since all is contained never an extra ounce is aboard as you approach the start line.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Good plan. Perhaps during the season you have a sailor's box that contains the needed items for overnight cruising. It rests ashore till the appointed time. Since all is contained never an extra ounce is aboard as you approach the start line.

Going to Home Depot today to get storage crates

That's what I was missing! I was thinking that he sailed with 150 sail. For sure, it makes one re-consider the choice of sails for the race. Did the conditions preclude using a 150 all the time? With my masthead rig, I always reef the main before reducing head sail size. During my last several outings, I used my 150 with reefed main and the balance was very good. My 135 is in for repairs, now, so that settled that!

The 150 used to be my go-to sail until winds hit about 14 mph. The problem with it is that it has to fly outside the lifelines (spreader sticks out to far to allow otherwise), thus the boat does not point well when using it. My new "Big Jib" sail from Blue Water Yachts is a 103% sail, but has significantly more square footage than the "stock" 97% jib. I handles a wider range of winds (up to about 17-18 mph) and improves pointing and overall handling over both the 150% and 97% sails.

The 150% sail is 21% larger than the 102% "Big Jib". Testing has revealed that I can lower the Big Jib, leave it hanked on (no roller furling), attach the 150% at only the tack and the upper hank, raise it, and fly it effectively on downwind runs. This adds about 10% to the total sail area, so hoisting one and dropping the other needs to be done quickly. Tying down the the un-used foresail and stowing unused sheets adds a complicating factor, so unless I can establish a dependable crew (whole 'nuther story) this whole kerfuffle could cost more time than it gains.

As for scoring the race with the 103% jib, the race captain tells me that only gives a 3 second/mile advantage, so unless I decide once and for all that I will not carry the 150% with me, I'm stuck at 228. It certainly would not have made any difference in the most recent race.

 

[dlochner]

The problem with it is that it has to fly outside the lifelines (spreader sticks out to far to allow otherwise), thus the boat does not point well when using it.

Are you jib leads on a track or fixed? This sounds like it could be an issue with lead position. When the lead is in the correct position the foot of the sail is typically very close to the turnbuckle with the sail 4-6 inches off the spreader. There will some variance between boat models, however these numbers should be close.

A common error going up wind is to sail too high or pinching. Cracking off a few degrees will improve boat speed, reduce leeway, and make up for the extra distance sailed. Related to this is sailing the course instead of sailing the tell tales. The telltales should all break evenly with the inside one right on the edge of flipping up and the outside ones streaming straight back. If the Genoa is being trimmed right to the spreader, the boat is pinching.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Are you jib leads on a track or fixed? This sounds like it could be an issue with lead position. When the lead is in the correct position the foot of the sail is typically very close to the turnbuckle with the sail 4-6 inches off the spreader. There will some variance between boat models, however these numbers should be close.

A common error going up wind is to sail too high or pinching. Cracking off a few degrees will improve boat speed, reduce leeway, and make up for the extra distance sailed. Related to this is sailing the course instead of sailing the tell tales. The telltales should all break evenly with the inside one right on the edge of flipping up and the outside ones streaming straight back. If the Genoa is being trimmed right to the spreader, the boat is pinching.

Yes, I have adjustable tracks. The problems with the 150% genoa has nothing to do with where the cars are set, but rather the fact that the sail cannot be tightened to the point where it is inside the lifelines because the spreaders stick out too far to allow that. This is a limitation on the MacGregor 26S that is not present on many other boats. Not being able to bring the foresail any closer to the center of the boat than this prevents me from pointing as well as I might otherwise.

Definitely familiar with the problems of sailing too close to the wind vs the better speeds achieved by sailing not so close to the wind. Velocity made good is where it's at. The better the boat can point, the more leeway you have to pick up speed when you can afford to come off the wind a tad.

I have had already learned how to read the telltales, and I have a coach who has taught me a lot about things I did not know about: how to tell where the draft is on the sail, how to adjust it and when, how to judge the proper position for the leads, how to optimize speed at the start, etc.

The days of sailing upwind with the genoa are over for me, at least when racing. My 102% jib can fly inside the lifelines, so the ability to point better makes it the better sail for the task. Now I just need to hone my technique and train my crew to maximize our performance.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The Black Widow product, besides being pricey requires a ton of hours to apply. It simply doesn't make sense for your boat. VC17m is a single season paint, best used for boats that stay in the water for a whole season. Because it is a cuprous oxide paint, when you pull it from the water, like a trailer sailor might do, it renders ineffective because of the chemical change that takes place - just like any cuprous oxide paint, like Interlux Bottomkote. VC17m is great because it is easy to apply and there is no build up. But, if you keep pulling your boat to sail on different bodies of water, or just pull it and launch it each time you use it, then I would suggest a multi-season ablative type paint. You can pull it and let the hull dry and when you relaunch, it will work well for you. It works like a bar of soap, which, as you use it, it gets smaller, but still cleans. As you sail your boat, the multi-season paint leaches away until it is gone. So it works like a time capsule. When you can see bare hull, you know it is time to apply more. This feature also eliminates build up that single season paints have. If you want to race seriously, then consider another type of boat.

 

[Apex]

@Barnacle Bill why not skip the bottom paint altogether for trailer sailors! Nothing quite as good as polished gelcoat hull. Melges 24 in our area do just that, ceramic coat wax the bottom 1x/year and at major regattas, otherwise no bottom paint to be found. Not sure that @stickinthemud57 is trailer sailing his macgregor....simply looking to eek out additional speed? and if in the water for extended time, then a bottom paint does make sense.

 

[stickinthemud57]

@Barnacle Bill - Thanks for that info, I will take it into consideration. I had to chuckle when you suggested getting a different boat if I wanted to race "seriously". Racing is maybe third on the list as far as my overall boat priorities (behind easy trailering and comfort for overnighting), but I still enjoy the competition and getting the best performance from my boat.

@Apex - I bought the boat from a genuine trailer sailor (no bottom coat), but I keep it in a slip most of the year. I might have left the gel coat uncovered, but I was worried that if I did not put a barrier coat and antifouling coat that my hull might blister. Also, at the time, I did not realize I would get bit by the racing bug. Hard to say which might have been the better decision, but what's done is done.

 

[Apex]

@Barnacle Bill - Thanks for that info, I will take it into consideration. I had to chuckle when you suggested getting a different boat if I wanted to race "seriously". Racing is maybe third on the list as far as my overall boat priorities (behind easy trailering and comfort for overnighting), but I still enjoy the competition and getting the best performance from my boat.

@Apex - I bought the boat from a genuine trailer sailor (no bottom coat), but I keep it in a slip most of the year. I might have left the gel coat uncovered, but I was worried that if I did not put a barrier coat and antifouling coat that my hull might blister. Also, at the time, I did not realize I would get bit by the racing bug. Hard to say which might have been the better decision, but what's done is done.

My opinion? Keep the vc, it is slick. You are in a slip most year, so yiu havent taken the boat backward 1 bit. Fair the bottom, practice and go race on othet boats as well.