Black, oily residue when starting ....

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Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Who said it started hard??

I agree with Hermits comments in his last post.
To clarify, the fuel and air are not mixed IN THE INTAKE MANIFOLD like a gas engine, they do, of course, mix when the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber.
Yes there is an injection period not a moment, the same can be said of a gas engine spark, that later being pretty much a constant length of time and the former changing with power output.
Injection begins BTDC around 5 degrees and ends when it ends, shortly after TDC

Hermit:
After talking to lots and lots of folks I have come to realize that most (you appear to be an exception) don't have a clew on how diesels work and think it is just a gas engine that uses a different fuel. I try to emphasize some of the more distinct differences to get my point across. I was also not trying to specifically diagnose the problem but provide the background principals so the problem can be understood. I have this forehandedness problem and am pretty sure that when the excriment hits the rotating breeze production device the poor sap will not have SBO.com to extract his 4th point of contact from the incenerator.

So yea, I call momentary black smoke and oil in the exhaust on cold start an injector problem. Course I would also know if she was cranking "at the right speed" which would also cause the same thing and be an electrical power to the starter or starter problem. You have to have all the facts to make a good diagnosis. Unfortunatly most of us are not mechanics and don't know what facts to report. Had a case once where the engine would not start on cloudy days no mater the temp. Seemed that the clouds where keeping the engine from starting.:confused: The batts sat in a south facing locker and the locker got warm on sunny days. Yea, he just needed a new bat and the terminals cleaned but diagnosing the symptoms was a bit convoluted.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
...and the initial squirt of water is filled with a black residue that floats on the water.
Scott, do you think this is more than what is simply sitting in the waterlift muffler? That's a nasty mixture of exhaust gases and hot water from the HX.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
I agree with Hermits comments in his last post.
To clarify, the fuel and air are not mixed IN THE INTAKE MANIFOLD like a gas engine, they do, of course, mix when the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber.
Yes there is an injection period not a moment, the same can be said of a gas engine spark, that later being pretty much a constant length of time and the former changing with power output.
Injection begins BTDC around 5 degrees and ends when it ends, shortly after TDC

Hermit:
After talking to lots and lots of folks I have come to realize that most (you appear to be an exception) don't have a clew on how diesels work and think it is just a gas engine that uses a different fuel. I try to emphasize some of the more distinct differences to get my point across. I was also not trying to specifically diagnose the problem but provide the background principals so the problem can be understood. I have this forehandedness problem and am pretty sure that when the excriment hits the rotating breeze production device the poor sap will not have SBO.com to extract his 4th point of contact from the incenerator.

So yea, I call momentary black smoke and oil in the exhaust on cold start an injector problem. Course I would also know if she was cranking "at the right speed" which would also cause the same thing and be an electrical power to the starter or starter problem. You have to have all the facts to make a good diagnosis. Unfortunatly most of us are not mechanics and don't know what facts to report. Had a case once where the engine would not start on cloudy days no mater the temp. Seemed that the clouds where keeping the engine from starting.:confused: The batts sat in a south facing locker and the locker got warm on sunny days. Yea, he just needed a new bat and the terminals cleaned but diagnosing the symptoms was a bit convoluted.
I think if people actually understood and could visualize what is really going on in their engine they could look at the symptoms and imagine what could be going wrong. That would be more valuable to me than fixing the problem at hand.
That's interesting how you like to point out the differences, when I describe a diesel I always start out with 'it's alot like a gas engine'. Your way probably works better.
I don't like any mystery about a machine I am using. I think most guys probably feel the same way but settle for crossing their fingers and hoping that their engine will start and that they can trust it.
Finding the connection with the cloudy day would be the hard part. who notices things like that? The hardest problems to fix are when it's only broke some of the time. I have actually had a car I was working on towed to a repair shop because I couldn't fix it. They cleaned the battery terminals and called me 15 minutes after it got there to come pick it up. Thank God for honest mechanics. It's kind of like saying an honest lawyer. I mean there must be some out there right???:confused:
 
Jan 2, 2009
93
Gulfstar 50 ketch holland
If you are going to use your boat in alot in colder weather at the start and end of season a oil heater is still a good idea not to replace a bad/weak starting system. The flow of cold oil is SLOW and hard on your engine. Up north cars/trucks have block heaters oil heaters and even battery heaters.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I was talking to a farm hand that works year round and the only way the diesel tracrors start in temperatures below 20 degrees is if the engine heaters have benn connected to the power grid.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,432
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Waterlift muffler ...

Stu, I think that the amount is probably no more than what sits in the muffler. Like I said, it is only momentary, then everything runs clear. It appears that Bill is indicating the small amount of black smoke at start-up is normal. What bothers me is the small amount of soot that ends up in the water ... it makes me feel guilty.

Tonight is pretty cold so I went over to see how hard it is to start up. The last 3 nights have been in the upper 20's and highs during the day just barely 50. It was 39 this evening in the dark when I went over to the boat. The water temp is still 54 (surprisingly). I checked the battery monitor in the dark and they both read at 12.4 amps. When I turned lights on they immediately dropped to just under 12.3 so I was expecting a weak start. Surprisingly, the engine started to catch at the end of the 1st crank. It took me just 4 cranks to get her started and the batts had little problem spinning the crank case. This was much easier than Saturday even tho it was in the upper 50's when I started then. During the summer, the engine normally starts on the 1st crank with very little spinning.

The monitor shows my charge at 14.1 amps and the batts cooled down to 12.6 amps afterward. I gave it an hour workout on a perfectly still lake with not a single boat anywhere (it was pretty dark with no moon but the stars were exceptionally bright with the clear skies we have lately). I am amazed at the number of planes in the sky. We are under a pattern with Newark, LaGuardia and Kennedy all in the area, not to mention all the corporate jets at Teterborough and Morris County airports. I gave up after counting well over 30 blinking lights all over the sky in every direction.

Starting the engine when it is warm is definitely NOT a problem. I suspect that I accumulate soot due to the engine being underworked at normal cruising rpm of just 2300 rpm. I am going to fix that problem over the winter with a new prop (stay tuned for a new thread). I like the idea of installing heating pads, but we have no shore power where I am at currently ... maybe another year.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
cloudy days

The real diagnostic problem is the customers. They notice stuff like "it never starts on a cloudy day" and you are left to scratch you head as to why.
We get posts in the same vein here. Folks simply don't know what is or is not a symptom that is or is not important. And it ain't their fault, I suspect when I go to the doctor I tell him stuff that only leaves him scratching his head. My boss when I was learning auto mechanics told me that folks can drop their car off and go to work where they make packs of money, we fix their car and charge them packs of money. In the final analysis, the customer come out making more money letting us do it than doing it himself and not doing what he makes packs of money at.
Course I believe that specialization is for insects
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Scott: amps? Don't u mean volts?

Also, that stuff IS inside your muffler ALL the time.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,092
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Scott,
The water lift muffler likely has a bunch or unburned hydrocarbons all mixed up when it is sitting and cold so when you first start her up you'll get the black sooty mess polluting the water. I feel your pain because polluting a pristine lake is not something boaters aspire to. 2 stroke motors are also notoriously bad a a lot of unburned gasoline goes right out the exhaust, but they exhaust under water so you don't notice how much pollution you get.
Just a thought but you could drain the water lift muffler if you feel strongly enough about it before starting it cold. This will allow the engine to warm up a bit as the water pump works to fill the waer lift muffler with fresh water and exhaust mixture. Diesels take a while to warm up as you typically have more oil than a gas engine ( my F250 pickup used almost 4 gallons every oil change - 15 quarts). So until they get to full operating temperature there is a lot of unburned hydrocarbons.

I was thinking you could put a valve on the water lift muffler drain port and drain it into a one gallon zip loc bag before starting it cold. Then dispose of the nasty water at a recycling center. Just a thought .
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
You could put something under the exhaust port and catch all the water that comes out at the beginning. Then you can let it settle and see just how much(or how little) is really there. You know how oil on water is, it looks like a lot more than there really is. I doubt it is that much or you would be constantly filling up with oil.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,432
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Ah, Stu ...

that's exactly what I meant ...:doh: How'd you know? I think my brain was still a little frozen when I came in off the boat. It was cold out there!
 

dmc

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Jan 29, 2007
67
Hunter Cheribini Lk. St. Clair MI
Scott........

I had a similar problem with SB 8 Yanmar I found low engine speed and a short run time before shutdown didn't help. I need to motor up river a short distance to my slip. I have taken to running my engine a little longer to warm it up and just before shut down in the slip I throttle up and let the engine run at 80% or so for a minute or two and then shut down. Seems to clear everything and the next cold start is clean.

Peace

dmc
 
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