Bilge Wire installation

[FourPoints]

Maine,

My boat didn't come with an electric bilge pump originally, so I'm in the process of installing one. I've got the bilge hose plumbed into an above waterline through hull and the pump base installed in the bilge.

My question is about the power. About a foot away from where I've mounted the pump, all the ground wires are connected to a (stainless?) plate held in place by one of the keel bolts (keel grounding?).

Is it acceptable to run only 2 wires from the electricial panel to the bilge, and just run the bilge ground wire to the keel with the rest of the ground wires, or do I also need to run the bilge ground wire to the electricial panel?

The reason I would prefer to run the bilge wire to the keel grounding point is that space is tight to get the wires ran down there, and the triplex wire I found would not fit without drilling new holes, but the duplex wire will fit fine.

 

[Benny17441]

1) Don't confuse a lightning arrestor grounding plate with a negative ground buz connector.
2) Use marine grade wire and size them properly. The size will be determined by the roundtrip length of the run. Sizing tables can be found on the Net.
3) I like to hardwire my bilge pump connections to the batteries to insure a hot circuit at all times. The Positive lead must be fused. I by-pass the control panel and position a two way switch (MANUAL/AUTOMATIC) in a convenient location.
4) The two way switch requires three wires from pump to control switch. A float switch in the bilge will allow for the AUTOMATIC function.
5) Waterproof Heat Shrink connectors work well in wet places.
6) Bilge pumps and float switches do not last forever so allow a little extra length in the wires for future splices.

 

[FourPoints]

1) Don't confuse a lightning arrestor grounding plate with a negative ground buz connector.

actually, this is directly tied to the negative side of the electrical... unusual, but that's the way the factory did it.

#2 - #6 already covered.

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine,

My boat didn't come with an electric bilge pump originally, so I'm in the process of installing one. I've got the bilge hose plumbed into an above waterline through hull and the pump base installed in the bilge.

Make sure you have smooth walled hose, NO check valve, and a high loop or much preferably a vacuum breaker/siphon break.

My question is about the power. About a foot away from where I've mounted the pump, all the ground wires are connected to a (stainless?) plate held in place by one of the keel bolts (keel grounding?).

That is likely your bonding/lightning system and should not have current running through it. The DC neg for the pump needs to go back to your ONE DC negative point then onto your ships ground, usually the engine. Multiple negative grounding points create problems..

Is it acceptable to run only 2 wires from the electricial panel to the bilge, and just run the bilge ground wire to the keel with the rest of the ground wires, or do I also need to run the bilge ground wire to the electricial panel?

Can you do it and will it work? Maybe, but it is definitely advised against.

The reason I would prefer to run the bilge wire to the keel grounding point is that space is tight to get the wires ran down there, and the triplex wire I found would not fit without drilling new holes, but the duplex wire will fit fine.

Nothing is easy on a boat. I guess this "difficulty" potentially makes future galvanic issues seem, well, not so easy...

Tips:

1-Use heat shrink crimp butt splices and get the pump pig tails as high in the bilge as possible or up into a settee..

2-The bilge pump feed should ideally not "switched" off the batt switch and the pos feed should be "always hot". This normally means a direct connect to the house bank through a bilge pump switch.

3-Any direct connect to the house bank should be fused as close to the bank as possible and preferably within 7". An in-line waterproof ATC/ATO fuse holder works well for this. I like this style with a screw mount.

Image courtesy http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/en-us/d347.html

4- Bilge pumps are one of the few items where the manufacturers fuse size must be adhered to. This is to prevent the pump from melting down in the event of a stalled rotor. This fuse is normally installed at the Rule bilge switch.

5- A manual/off/automatic switch is a very good idea. The manual position allows manual operation and a quick check to see if the pump is working.

6- Any MANUAL side of a switch should be a "momentary" switch meaning you must hold it there for it to work. I have seen a lot of melted bilge pumps because a builder did not use a "momentary" switch on the MANUAL side. Catalina was famous for this and there are many folks who forget and leave the pump on MANUAL until it burns up. These pumps are not designed for constant duty so you should not have a constant on/duty MANUAL switch. The Rule AUTO/OFF/MANUAL switches feature momentary MANUAL..

With a properly sized fuse a meltdown should be prevented but like anything else many folks don't follow the manufacturers fuse size suggestion and they burn up.

7- Use the biggest pump you can fit. These centrifugal pumps are barely going to hit 50% of their "rated" capacity when installed..

 

[FourPoints]

Make sure you have smooth walled hose, NO check valve, and a high loop or much preferably a vacuum breaker/siphon break.

I've heard this before, but how much does the cheap hose actually affect the performance? I only ask because I was given the cheap hose by a friend who had extra from something he used it for (ice chest drain?), and the length fit perfectly. I checked the the smooth walled bilge hose is priced at just under $3/ft at the local WM. Not horrible for the length I need, but still very pricy per foot.

That is likely your bonding/lightning system and should not have current running through it. The DC neg for the pump needs to go back to your ONE DC negative point then onto your ships ground, usually the engine. Multiple negative grounding points create problems..

That's what I thought when I bought the boat, but I was told specifically that it was also part of the electricial negative, and where to attach the bilge pump ground wire. I never really questioned that until now as I'm planning what to do here...

Nothing is easy on a boat. I guess this "difficulty" potentially makes future galvanic issues seem, well, not so easy...

it's not a matter of easy or not, it's a matter of avoiding drilling any more holes in my boat than is absolutly necessary

Tips:

1-Use heat shrink crimp butt splices and get the pump pig tails as high in the bilge as possible or up into a settee..

2-The bilge pump feed should ideally not "switched" off the batt switch and the pos feed should be "always hot". This normally means a direct connect to the house bank through a bilge pump switch.

3-Any direct connect to the house bank should be fused as close to the bank as possible and preferably within 7". An in-line waterproof ATC/ATO fuse holder works well for this. I like this style with a screw mount.

4- Bilge pumps are one of the few items where the manufacturers fuse size must be adhered to. This is to prevent the pump from melting down in the event of a stalled rotor. This fuse is normally installed at the Rule bilge switch.

5- A manual/off/automatic switch is a very good idea. The manual position allows manual operation and a quick check to see if the pump is working.

6- Any MANUAL side of a switch should be a "momentary" switch meaning you must hold it there for it to work. I have seen a lot of melted bilge pumps because a builder did not use a "momentary" switch on the MANUAL side. Catalina was famous for this and there are many folks who forget and leave the pump on MANUAL until it burns up. These pumps are not designed for constant duty so you should not have a constant on/duty MANUAL switch. The Rule AUTO/OFF/MANUAL switches feature momentary MANUAL..

With a properly sized fuse a meltdown should be prevented but like anything else many folks don't follow the manufacturers fuse size suggestion and they burn up.

7- Use the biggest pump you can fit. These centrifugal pumps are barely going to hit 50% of their "rated" capacity when installed..

1) already have them, read your post a while ago about connectors ... For bilge / potentially submerged connections should I also use heat shrink tube over the heat shrunk connectors?

2) I'm torn on this one, and leaning away from your suggestion here. I understand the reasoning, make sure the boat doesn't get left with the batteries off and the bilge therefore off. The boat has never had a automatic bilge, nor has it ever had a problem with any significant ammount of water in the bilge. Not counting the ice chest melt water, I've never had more than a gallon in the bilge, most of which came through the companionway slats durring 2 weeks of solid rain and high winds, so it seems an unnecessary step as it has spent the last 21 years safe and dry without a pump (remember outboard engine so no suffing box or other related leak points from an inboard engine).

3) I had planned to connect to the house breaker panel with everything relating to the bilge ran through a push button reset breaker so (as long as the batteries are on) it cannot be turned off.

4) Wouldn't the breaker described in #3 already fit this purpose, or are you saying that I need a fuse installed somewhere else as well?

5) My plan is to have the automatic wire attached directly to the breaker in #3, and a seperate momentary on switch (also wired after the breaker described in #3), I did not plan to have a off position other than turning off the battery switch.

6) see #5

7) I have almost exactly 3ft of lift from the bilge to the through hull, and the pump lists 3ft of lift as a 50% reduction in pumping... I remember hearing that a rule of thumb for a properly sized primary pump should be that it is able to empty your entire bilge in under 5 minutes, don't remember where I got that from, or if it is in fact true, but it sounds reasonable, so that's been in my mind when planning this. I was able to pick up a Rule-Mate 500 Automatic Bilge Pump for about $35 at defender last year, given my bilge can only hold somewhere between 5 and 8 gallons before it comes up over the sole, that means at 3ft of lift being trduced by 50% to 250gph, it should be able to drain my entire bilge in 2 minutes or less, well within the 5 minute window. Even if it only pumps 25% of rated, I'm still pumping the entire bilge in 4 minutes...

 

[Stu Jackson]

Brian, with an outboard engine, your ground point is the negative side of your battery bank, not the keel. Whoever told you this was simply wrong.

 

[FourPoints]

I'm going to trace these wires, I thought they were (from left to right) 1) from the electrical panel, 2) from the bow nav lights, 3) from the cabin lights. Regardless of where they are from, I'm going to re-do the connections soon as they are getting corroded, and were not crimped with heat shrink connectors

The pump is mounted between the keel bolts at the farthest aft (bottom of the picture) open space. The hoses pictured here are left, shower drain, and right ice chest drain.

btw, This picture was taken during the survey almost 3 years ago, and was before I refinished the sole.

 

[Benny17441]

Like Maine Sail pointed out (#4) the fuse should be sized accordying to the manufacturers specs which, the available breaker switch on your control panel may not likely be. Wether or not to keep a hot circuit on your bilge pump depends on risk assesment. I have had had boats with outboard engines and single through the hull where I felt there was no need for a bilge pump. Also have had boats kept nearby and checked frequently where I felt a manual pump installation was all that was needed. At present we stage the boat at different locations and may not get around to check it for a month so there is some comfort in knowing that the automatic bilge pump has constant power to it. You may also have to differintiate wether you are on a mooring or hooked up to shore power. As far as the bilge pump performance get the largest capacity you can properly fit but understand that any sizable hole or leak will likely overwhelm it. These pumps are only intended to get rid of casual water and normal through the hull and rain leaks. I'm surprised Hunter did not install a bilge pump on your boat but by any means do I consider it a lapse in safety. These pumps are more for convenience. For safety at sea consider installing a cockpit manual high volume gusher pump.

 

[Stu Jackson]

The Rule website has some very good instructions for both wiring and fusing. Their A/O/M switch comes with a fuse built right in!

 

[FourPoints]

Like Maine Sail pointed out (#4) the fuse should be sized accordying to the manufacturers specs which, the available breaker switch on your control panel may not likely be.

I'm ordering a new electrical panel and sizing the breakers to fit what they are attached to, so the specs call for the pump to be protected above 3amps, I will order a 3amp breaker to do so, but want to make sure that a correctly sized breaker dedicated to the bilge pump at the main panel will fit the requirements of what was reccomended.

As far as the bilge pump performance get the largest capacity you can properly fit but understand that any sizable hole or leak will likely overwhelm it

I understand if I get a large hole 250gph will not stop the boat from sinking, but combined with a hand pump that pumps around 600gph, should be able to keep the boat floating for a while in the event of an emergency. My goal is primarily with this installation is to pump grey water as it drains into the bilge from the ice chest and from the shower, plus the little bit of water that does make it's way there otherwise.

 

[FourPoints]

The Rule website has some very good instructions for both wiring and fusing.

could have fooled me... I didn't find anything usefull when I looked

 

[Maine Sail]

I'm going to trace these wires, I thought they were (from left to right) 1) from the electrical panel, 2) from the bow nav lights, 3) from the cabin lights. Regardless of where they are from, I'm going to re-do the connections soon as they are getting corroded, and were not crimped with heat shrink connectors

The pump is mounted between the keel bolts at the farthest aft (bottom of the picture) open space. The hoses pictured here are left, shower drain, and right ice chest drain.

btw, This picture was taken during the survey almost 3 years ago, and was before I refinished the sole.

I can almost guarantee those wires go to:

1- Mast Step/Mast
2- Port Chain Plate
3- Starboard Chain Plate

They should not be tied into for current carrying devices. As Stu said if you have an outboard you likely have an isolated ground and the battery is most likely your ground.

 

[Maine Sail]

I've heard this before, but how much does the cheap hose actually affect the performance? I only ask because I was given the cheap hose by a friend who had extra from something he used it for (ice chest drain?), and the length fit perfectly. I checked the the smooth walled bilge hose is priced at just under $3/ft at the local WM. Not horrible for the length I need, but still very pricy per foot.

It can affect it quite dramatically and can actually add a couple feet of head pressure, even without adding any height, but for your boat/application it may not be necessary to have smooth walled hose.

That's what I thought when I bought the boat, but I was told specifically that it was also part of the electricial negative, and where to attach the bilge pump ground wire. I never really questioned that until now as I'm planning what to do here...

All current carrying negative wires on a boat should return to the same ground buss or common ground point. In your case this is likely the battery. You can then run a single wire to the engine or on some boats the keel and this single wire is your earth ground. Setting up multiple ground points on boats leads to problems and lightning or bonding systems should not be current carrying.

it's not a matter of easy or not, it's a matter of avoiding drilling any more holes in my boat than is absolutly necessary

You'll get over it after your first 50 or so trust me...

1) already have them, read your post a while ago about connectors ... For bilge / potentially submerged connections should I also use heat shrink tube over the heat shrunk connectors?

Properly shrunk & installed this should not be necessary..

2) I'm torn on this one, and leaning away from your suggestion here. I understand the reasoning, make sure the boat doesn't get left with the batteries off and the bilge therefore off. The boat has never had a automatic bilge, nor has it ever had a problem with any significant ammount of water in the bilge. Not counting the ice chest melt water, I've never had more than a gallon in the bilge, most of which came through the companionway slats durring 2 weeks of solid rain and high winds, so it seems an unnecessary step as it has spent the last 21 years safe and dry without a pump (remember outboard engine so no suffing box or other related leak points from an inboard engine).

I have seen lots of folks get lucky for a long time until they one day don't. My own brother's boat is a prime example. When he bought it we had a punch list but it was July and we just wanted to get some fishing in when the Striped Bass were hot. We launched the boat planning on pulling it the next weekend for some upgrades. Go figure that one of the seacocks under the bait well split, female plastic NPT ball valve on bronze male NPS thru-hull and the boat partially sunk. Fortunately a neighbor alerted us to it. Thank god the bilge pump was connected direct to the batteries or it would have been on the bottom and totaled. It survived for two days with this leak before our neighbor Dave called my brother. The batts were very low but the pump still slowly moving some water but no longer able to get ahead and stay ahead. It's your boat and you don't NEED to do anything but if you are installing an "emergency" type device I always find it best to install it in a manner that sets it up for a best case scenario in an un-planned emergency.

3) I had planned to connect to the house breaker panel with everything relating to the bilge ran through a push button reset breaker so (as long as the batteries are on) it cannot be turned off.

The best fuses for Rule pumps are fast blow. Breakers all trip differently and it is often tough to match a breaker to a bilge pump fuse in tripping. The most common breakers used in boats. The Carling "World Series" breakers are used by nearly everyone such as Blue Sea, Bass, Paneltronics, Newmar, Ancor etc. generally only come in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 etc. etc... They are made in other sizes but are often very hard to find in anything but 5 amp increments.

4) Wouldn't the breaker described in #3 already fit this purpose, or are you saying that I need a fuse installed somewhere else as well?

If you could find a 3A breaker then yes it could work but the Rule switch panels are inexpensive and serve their purpose well.

5) My plan is to have the automatic wire attached directly to the breaker in #3, and a seperate momentary on switch (also wired after the breaker described in #3), I did not plan to have a off position other than turning off the battery switch.

You would have an OFF position with a breaker but if the breaker was off you could not use your MANUAL mode. This is what makes the Rule toggles so nice it is a three way toggle AUTO/OFF/MANUAL. With your wiring you'd need it to be on AUTO mode in order to select MANUAL.

7) I have almost exactly 3ft of lift from the bilge to the through hull, and the pump lists 3ft of lift as a 50% reduction in pumping... I remember hearing that a rule of thumb for a properly sized primary pump should be that it is able to empty your entire bilge in under 5 minutes, don't remember where I got that from, or if it is in fact true, but it sounds reasonable, so that's been in my mind when planning this. I was able to pick up a Rule-Mate 500 Automatic Bilge Pump for about $35 at defender last year, given my bilge can only hold somewhere between 5 and 8 gallons before it comes up over the sole, that means at 3ft of lift being trduced by 50% to 250gph, it should be able to drain my entire bilge in 2 minutes or less, well within the 5 minute window. Even if it only pumps 25% of rated, I'm still pumping the entire bilge in 4 minutes...

Keep in mind that those head numbers are for straight lift only. They do not account for hose, bends, elbows or voltage and bilge pumps pump more when the voltage is higher than when it is low.

The only rule of thumb I go by is the biggest pump I can install and the most volume it can move unless it is a secondary "daily" pump. The only thing that matters is whether you're comfortable with your installation and if you are then go for it. With bilge pumps I prescribe to higher flow is better but you don't have to..

Our bilge pump has not cycled once in five years, our bilge stays bone dry and the mast has it's own sump that is pumped out after a rain storm with a separate manual pump, but, it is still a big pump with back up because that give me more fighting ammunition in an emergency, which is why I have them. But I also may have a lot more holes in my boat that you with an inboard engine, rudder post and 7 seacocks...

 

[jhnewsome17]

I recently upgraded my bilge pump to a RULE 500gph and RULE Model 41 3-Way Lighted Panel Switch, which is fused at the switch. This allows for direct wiring to the battery. The idea here is that the bilge pump should be hot regardless if your battery switch is off.

I purchased the recommended wiring for the length of the run and tried to install the bilge pump exactly by RULE's instructions. I didn't particularly like the spring loaded manual switch but I understand the safety reason and accept it.

The Model 41 switch also has an alarm to let you know when the automatic switch has been engaged. My best advice is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Check out the West Marine Advisor info on bilge pumps also.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...toreId=11151&catalogId=10001&page=Bilge-Pumps

 

[jhnewsome17]

One other piece of advise pertaining to the discharge of the water from the bilge pump. A through hull fitting at least 1' above the water line is required, but RULE specifically advises against a back flow preventer. A vented loop is recommended to prevent back-siphoning.

Even with the vented loop I have concerns about water siphoning back through the discharge line when the boat is heeling. If you install the through hull as high as possible above the water line you still potentially have a problem and you reduce the efficiency of the pump.

I've installed a seacock on my through hull and make sure it's closed when I'm underway. The negative here is that you have to remember to open the seacock when docked or otherwise not concerned about potential siphoning. I'm sure there are folks who will argue against this, but I prefer to have a seacock on all through hulls - above or below the waterline. At least you have the option of closing it in an emergency.

 

[FourPoints]

It can affect it quite dramatically and can actually add a couple feet of head pressure, even without adding any height, but for your boat/application it may not be necessary to have smooth walled hose.

since I already have the cheap (free) hose I'm going to give it a try and see how it does. I may upgrade to the smooth walled if I don't like the flow rate, or I notice it keeps backfilling too much from the water trapped in the ridges more than I like

All current carrying negative wires on a boat should return to the same ground buss or common ground point. In your case this is likely the battery. You can then run a single wire to the engine or on some boats the keel and this single wire is your earth ground. Setting up multiple ground points on boats leads to problems and lightning or bonding systems should not be current carrying.

You were 100% correct on those 3 wires. They are in fact port chainplate, compression post / tabernacle, starboard chainplate. I tested them and they have no conductivity to the electricial negative on the batteries. Very obveious now thinking about it... I originally thought it was the surveyor that told me what they were, but thinking back now it was probably the broker selling me the boat.

I'm considering a dedicated run to the panel for the bilge that isn't switched through the battery switch, but either way, I'll make sure the ground is wired to the common bus.

You'll get over it after your first 50 or so trust me...

I'm probably around 50 now, and as long as I know I need to make the (or any) hole I'm ok with it, but the first few were pretty gut wrenching!

Properly shrunk & installed this should not be necessary..

The connectors I found were not adhesive lined heat shrink, just heat shrink... the heat shrink tubing is the ancor adhesive lined

I have seen lots of folks get lucky for a long time until they one day don't. My own brother's boat is a prime example. When he bought it we had a punch list but it was July and we just wanted to get some fishing in when the Striped Bass were hot. We launched the boat planning on pulling it the next weekend for some upgrades. Go figure that one of the seacocks under the bait well split, female plastic NPT ball valve on bronze male NPS thru-hull and the boat partially sunk. Fortunately a neighbor alerted us to it. Thank god the bilge pump was connected direct to the batteries or it would have been on the bottom and totaled. It survived for two days with this leak before our neighbor Dave called my brother. The batts were very low but the pump still slowly moving some water but no longer able to get ahead and stay ahead. It's your boat and you don't NEED to do anything but if you are installing an "emergency" type device I always find it best to install it in a manner that sets it up for a best case scenario in an un-planned emergency.

as mentioned, I'm considering the dedicated run, but since the boat has been fine all this time without any electric bilge, I am not convinced I need it for safety as much as I need it for just because it's the proper way of doing things

The best fuses for Rule pumps are fast blow. Breakers all trip differently and it is often tough to match a breaker to a bilge pump fuse in tripping. The most common breakers used in boats. The Carling "World Series" breakers are used by nearly everyone such as Blue Sea, Bass, Paneltronics, Newmar, Ancor etc. generally only come in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 etc. etc... They are made in other sizes but are often very hard to find in anything but 5 amp increments.

If I can't get a 3amp push breaker, What if I wire an inline 3amp fuse after a 5amp push breaker?

If you could find a 3A breaker then yes it could work but the Rule switch panels are inexpensive and serve their purpose well.

It's a matter of fitting the switch panel. the new panel will take up the entire space I have available, so unless I put the bilge switch somewhere else, it won't fit.

You would have an OFF position with a breaker but if the breaker was off you could not use your MANUAL mode. This is what makes the Rule toggles so nice it is a three way toggle AUTO/OFF/MANUAL. With your wiring you'd need it to be on AUTO mode in order to select MANUAL.

my thought is this:
from battery -> push button reset breaker (not switch type breaker i.e. cannot flip to off off position) -> automatic wire on bilge AND momentary on switch wired to manual wire on bilge

Keep in mind that those head numbers are for straight lift only. They do not account for hose, bends, elbows or voltage and bilge pumps pump more when the voltage is higher than when it is low.

The only rule of thumb I go by is the biggest pump I can install and the most volume it can move unless it is a secondary "daily" pump. The only thing that matters is whether you're comfortable with your installation and if you are then go for it. With bilge pumps I prescribe to higher flow is better but you don't have to..

Our bilge pump has not cycled once in five years, our bilge stays bone dry and the mast has it's own sump that is pumped out after a rain storm with a separate manual pump, but, it is still a big pump with back up because that give me more fighting ammunition in an emergency, which is why I have them. But I also may have a lot more holes in my boat that you with an inboard engine, rudder post and 7 seacocks...

The plumbing run is pretty stright without any sharp bends so it shouldn't be too bad on the lift. I could not fit anything physically larger than the rule-mate 500, I think the 750 is the same physical size though.

Also, this is 90% for daily ice chest / shower drain sump purposes, and 10% for actual bilge water accumulation, so I think I'm going to be ok with the flow rate.