Bilge question
- Thread starter AADIVER
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My 84' has never really been dry. I am actually in the process of replacing the compression block in the bilge. You might want to see if it is good.
Mark A
Mark A
My bilge was always wet until this year. While I was out of the water I installed some new packing and removed the old packing in my packing gland. It was not that big of a deal but my bilge has been really dry since.
It isn't bad to have some water going into the bilge, in some theories. It keeps the water circulating.
I have to be careful and keep my bilge really clean or it tends to build up odors in the boat now that it sits still. I usually try to keep it dry as possible and sometimes vac out every drop of water.
Check your packing gland to see if you have a drip coming out of there. If you do it isn't a big deal but if it is a lot you can always tighten up the gland.
You may get some water in there from rain as well as, no matter how old or new, all...and I mean all...boats leak!
It isn't bad to have some water going into the bilge, in some theories. It keeps the water circulating.
I have to be careful and keep my bilge really clean or it tends to build up odors in the boat now that it sits still. I usually try to keep it dry as possible and sometimes vac out every drop of water.
Check your packing gland to see if you have a drip coming out of there. If you do it isn't a big deal but if it is a lot you can always tighten up the gland.
You may get some water in there from rain as well as, no matter how old or new, all...and I mean all...boats leak!
The water is definitely salty, no oil, diesel, or smell of same. I dried it out today, I'll check it tomorrow. I'm having the boat hauled and painted 3rd of January. I'll have them check the packing gland. Boats are like the Winchester house here in California: never, EVER finished ;-)
If you have PSS and it hasn't been raining, you should have a dry bilge.
If it has been raining, a little water in the bilge isn't weird.
If you have packing and not PSS, you should have at least a little water coming in, although it is possible for it to evaporate before making it to the bilge.
If your packing gland is so tight you don't have at least a little drip, then you're scoring the shaft every time you run the prop. Dripless packing is actually drip-less packing, and means you should see a little water coming in.
Lots of posts on the forum about how to properly pack the stuffing box. See [LINK] this post for some good discussions on it. Pay special attention to Maine Sail's discussions with Buck Algonquin.
If it has been raining, a little water in the bilge isn't weird.
If you have packing and not PSS, you should have at least a little water coming in, although it is possible for it to evaporate before making it to the bilge.
If your packing gland is so tight you don't have at least a little drip, then you're scoring the shaft every time you run the prop. Dripless packing is actually drip-less packing, and means you should see a little water coming in.
Lots of posts on the forum about how to properly pack the stuffing box. See [LINK] this post for some good discussions on it. Pay special attention to Maine Sail's discussions with Buck Algonquin.
PSS = Packless Sealing System
http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories
There are others out there. Lasdrop was one of the first.
http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories
There are others out there. Lasdrop was one of the first.
The PO (who is also the OO, Original Owner) of my '89 had one put on at some point. I must say that I love it.
Like any other work involving removal or decoupling of the prop shaft, it is non-trivial work. As far as I know PSS is the only way to completely eliminate water ingress at the prop shaft.
Like any other work involving removal or decoupling of the prop shaft, it is non-trivial work. As far as I know PSS is the only way to completely eliminate water ingress at the prop shaft.
AADiver,
I just replaced everything behind the tailshaft on my '77 this year. I chose the traditional Buck Alconquin stuffing box with gore packing. It is basically dry when sitting and just a drop here and there when running. I could not justify (nor see the benefit) of the extra expense, although, I hear everyone that has a PSS type seal loves it.
If you want my $0.02, spend the $12 ($0.75/inch here) on Gore packing -
You will need to test & adjust the nut in the spring until you get it where you want it.
I just replaced everything behind the tailshaft on my '77 this year. I chose the traditional Buck Alconquin stuffing box with gore packing. It is basically dry when sitting and just a drop here and there when running. I could not justify (nor see the benefit) of the extra expense, although, I hear everyone that has a PSS type seal loves it.
If you want my $0.02, spend the $12 ($0.75/inch here) on Gore packing -
You will need to test & adjust the nut in the spring until you get it where you want it.
I think I'm going to try the Syntef stuff from Catalina Direct. Cheaper than a PSS and they claim no drips also.
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1352&ParentCat=391
Actually, my water intrusion is due to the dreaded, "Catalina Smile". This past weekend I did some core samples in the bilge and compression post support area. Both have the seriously wet plywood. Looks like I'm going to redo both areas and the exterior hull seam this winter.
Rob
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1352&ParentCat=391
Actually, my water intrusion is due to the dreaded, "Catalina Smile". This past weekend I did some core samples in the bilge and compression post support area. Both have the seriously wet plywood. Looks like I'm going to redo both areas and the exterior hull seam this winter.
Rob
Read those comments from Maine Sail in that thread I posted before. No drip at all means higher temps and risk of friction wearing the prop shaft down. There were some good pictures, too.
Thanks, Scott (and Shawn on Twice Around). I did read up on the various packing options and it seems the Gore GFO is now my choice. A PSS coupling tear failure could be catastrophic, so I do favor a conventional shaft seal. The GFO is virtually drip-free and cheaper than the Syntef. My main problem was leaking keel bolts anyway, so an occaisional drip is not to worry about.
Rob
Rob,
The keel bolt issue is a whole other ball of wax. To do it properly, you need the boat on the hard so you can dig out the soft plywood in the floor of the keel and add some glass for strength before re-nutting the keel studs...usually folks find good threads under the soft plywood.
I have just added some 10" lag bolts for now, but some day I'll need to do the nasty glass work & repair it properly.
Old Skool Neil has been engineering another solution, but I'll let him comment on that if he chooses to.
The keel bolt issue is a whole other ball of wax. To do it properly, you need the boat on the hard so you can dig out the soft plywood in the floor of the keel and add some glass for strength before re-nutting the keel studs...usually folks find good threads under the soft plywood.
I have just added some 10" lag bolts for now, but some day I'll need to do the nasty glass work & repair it properly.
Old Skool Neil has been engineering another solution, but I'll let him comment on that if he chooses to.
I did haul the boat this year. On the purchase survey last Feb., I saw the bottom paint missing in some areas and piled on in multiple layers in other places. I decided I'll have it soda-blasted, let it dry out and then I'll do new bottom coatings this Spring. I also had the mast pulled since I think the '84 standing rigging is original and should be replaced. Removing the plywood over the keel and under the mast will make the boat even more solid. So far, the upper parts of the bolts look good and the "Smile" is about 18" on both sides of the keel's forward edge at the stub joint. I really want that bilge dry this year.
I have very little progress to report on my keel bolt remedy due primarily to budgetary constraints (wife's new computer and as of yesterday, her new car - it's really cramping the boat budget) but I'll take the invitation to summarize the system anyway.
The Catalina 30 has two keel support issues. The first 10 years of the production run the keels had steel keel bolts. Bilge water and any water incursion in the hull/keel joint results in a deteriorating condition. The other problem is Catalina used a plywood shoe under the bilge to bolt the keel through. This shoe on most C-30's is wet and spongy and results in poor keel support and keel movement, furthering water incursion, furthering keel bolt rust and so on. One thing's for sure, it ain't getting any better.
In my case, the plywood shoe appears to be in decent shape and my bilge is dry. There is evidence of keel movement in the form of a small crack at the forward end of the keel joint that runs about 6", visible from the outside.
With a fleet of roughly 7000 boats, there's a variety of remedies. I could write for days describing them. They involve removing the plywood or coring through it, casting support piers in place, replacing the keel bolts, etc, lots of ideas out there.
My solution is to supplement the existing support by borrowing a structural concept from the wooden boat guys called bronze floors. These floors tied the wood frames, wood keel member and external lead ballast together, spreading the keel load up the hull to the frames. Here's a picture of the old Sparkman & Stephens floor design.
Here are pictures of the first casting pattern.
I have all four patterns done now, ready to go to the foundry. I've also done two different engineering studies on the holding force of 3/4" stainless lags in lead. I'll have seven of them embedded (an eighth if I ever remove the engine), the calculations indicate I'll have over 3X the necessary holding power and that figures a 25% working load factor so we're way good. The two studies took different approaches. I did one myself and the other was done by a licensed structural engineer. The figures came within 1% of each other.
My only time frame is to have the components ready for the next haulout. I don't have the stones to do the necessary drilling with the boat in the water and I really want the weight of the hull sitting on the keel rather than the keel hanging off the hull when installing.
Note that my first posts here on the system were met with some enthusiasm but also the expected naysayers. There are always naysayers, one suggested I lacked the sufficient credentials to be able to think of such a thing, another thought I might be irreparably damaging the structure of the boat. I take it all in stride, sorry they feel that way but then again, at one point in history the consensus was the earth was flat.
I'm going for it, see nothing but positives.
edit: here's a pic of all 4 patterns, ready for the foundry. Gloss paint too, better for removing from the sandcast mold.
Thanks for the comment.
At this time and subject to change on a whim, my plan is to drill 3/8" holes in the flats that ride on the hull, like 2 in each flat, and bed them in 5200 to the hull after stripping the area of all paint. The holes will act like indexes to lock the floors in place, like dowels.
I plan on placing 1/4" shims under the bolt flats until the 5200 cures then removing them before installing the bolts leaving a small gap between the bolt flats and the bilge top. Torquing the bolts will reduce the gap hopefully to zero yet place a minimal force on the bilge top (and the suspect plywood underneath). Torque values are yet to be determined but due to the coarseness of the lag threads in comparison to the keel bolts I expect the torque value to be higher than the current 105 ft-lbs.
I plan on drilling an oversize hole through the bilge top and plywood for each bolt, then the proper size pilot hole through the lower hull lamination and into the lead for the lags. This way the plywood and bilge top lamination won't impart any resistance on the bolts when torquing. After the bolts are in place, I'll fill the holes with epoxy to seal up the whole works.
A comment on the shape of the floors: the arch in the center of the bottom of each floor is so bilge water can communicate throughout the bilge rather than creating separate compartments. The dips in the upper edge are to allow room for the bilge pump discharge hose and anything else running through there.
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