I am trying to get a handle on how much of a blue water passage one could safely do in a typical coastal cruiser, such as a Hunter or Catalina 36, or a Beneteau 361. Are those boats safe in blue water as long as bad storm paths are avoided (such as a summer crossing of the Atlantic, or a summertime passage from New York to Bermuda), or are they most prudently sailed in situations where land is no more than a day or so away? I guess the answer to this question depends on how much of a storm those boats could handle safely. Any thoughts?
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pretty good boats
They are not hinkleys, but if they wont go the distance hundreds of guys who use them offshore are wrong. i think you need to set up the boat and rig it for the kind sailing you want to do, thats important and you have to watch the weather, but so do the hinkleys.
They are not hinkleys, but if they wont go the distance hundreds of guys who use them offshore are wrong. i think you need to set up the boat and rig it for the kind sailing you want to do, thats important and you have to watch the weather, but so do the hinkleys.
And the answer...
..also depends on your level of sailing experience on the big pond. 35'+ coastal cruisers have been out there for a long time. However, I know a great many sailors and I would not venture offshore with most of them. As for the boat, most of them are capable of doing the job with preparation and proper handling.
..also depends on your level of sailing experience on the big pond. 35'+ coastal cruisers have been out there for a long time. However, I know a great many sailors and I would not venture offshore with most of them. As for the boat, most of them are capable of doing the job with preparation and proper handling.
And to add another old saying
Any boat under 300 feet on the ocean is small. The ocean can make any boat small!
Any boat under 300 feet on the ocean is small. The ocean can make any boat small!
They'll all work.
We bought an IP 38 last summer and have spent the last year cruising the Gulf Coast, both Florida coasts and the keys. We thought we really needed a "Blue Water Tough Boat. Not true! The Island Packet is nice and the price was too right to walk away from, but seldom would one need this tough a boat for anything we've seen at sea. Only a fool sails out into seas that are forcast to be above his/her comfort level. Granted, we've been caught in some good blows but we've always been within 8 to 10 hours from safe harbour. Heavy boats are maybe better confidence builders but any good Hunter will work for 95% of the cruising done today. Buy what you can afford, looking at space, comfort, easy of handling, condition and resale. Fair Winds, Ray & Maria S/V Scooter
We bought an IP 38 last summer and have spent the last year cruising the Gulf Coast, both Florida coasts and the keys. We thought we really needed a "Blue Water Tough Boat. Not true! The Island Packet is nice and the price was too right to walk away from, but seldom would one need this tough a boat for anything we've seen at sea. Only a fool sails out into seas that are forcast to be above his/her comfort level. Granted, we've been caught in some good blows but we've always been within 8 to 10 hours from safe harbour. Heavy boats are maybe better confidence builders but any good Hunter will work for 95% of the cruising done today. Buy what you can afford, looking at space, comfort, easy of handling, condition and resale. Fair Winds, Ray & Maria S/V Scooter
Crew, Modifications, then the Design
Check the archives with the key words "blue water." We have had a number of long and earnest discussions on this subject! The key idea is that you have to be ready for the length of time at sea, and (more important) for whatever the sea may send you on your journey. So being ready for bad weather and possible failures is key. The first issue is the Skipper and the Crew. Seamanship, motivation, and coping skills are required. In most cases of things going wrong, the people issues dominate. By modifications, I mean doing all the little things to ensure your boat will stay watertight, able to sail, and livable. None of the "big three" production models are really ready as delivered. But these modifications are typically small improvements to improve sealing, strength, storage, hardware, and arrangements for cooking and sleeping underway. Designs are usually analysed with numbers developed to give an idea of the safety, comfort, and sailing charcteristics provided by the designer. There is a site (the link is in some of the archive threads) that has run all of these numbers for most present and past sailboat designs. In general, modern Hunter and Catalina designs meet these criteria at around 40 feet. For instance, a blue water boat should have a "capsize screen" under 2.00. According to the info on this site, the Hunter 356 is 2.00, and the Catalina 36 MKII is 2.07. The Cerubini designed Hunter 33 (pre-1985) is 1.85. But the topic is worth a lot of reading and research, whether you ever make a blue water trip or not. David Lady Lillie
Check the archives with the key words "blue water." We have had a number of long and earnest discussions on this subject! The key idea is that you have to be ready for the length of time at sea, and (more important) for whatever the sea may send you on your journey. So being ready for bad weather and possible failures is key. The first issue is the Skipper and the Crew. Seamanship, motivation, and coping skills are required. In most cases of things going wrong, the people issues dominate. By modifications, I mean doing all the little things to ensure your boat will stay watertight, able to sail, and livable. None of the "big three" production models are really ready as delivered. But these modifications are typically small improvements to improve sealing, strength, storage, hardware, and arrangements for cooking and sleeping underway. Designs are usually analysed with numbers developed to give an idea of the safety, comfort, and sailing charcteristics provided by the designer. There is a site (the link is in some of the archive threads) that has run all of these numbers for most present and past sailboat designs. In general, modern Hunter and Catalina designs meet these criteria at around 40 feet. For instance, a blue water boat should have a "capsize screen" under 2.00. According to the info on this site, the Hunter 356 is 2.00, and the Catalina 36 MKII is 2.07. The Cerubini designed Hunter 33 (pre-1985) is 1.85. But the topic is worth a lot of reading and research, whether you ever make a blue water trip or not. David Lady Lillie
offshore in production boats
David hit all the right points. Check out Don Street’s article on offshore prep in the last three issues of Cruising World. He covers boat and crew preparation as well as route planning. I’m sailing my h356 to the Virgins next year, but I’m also spending the year preparing the boat and the crew. (We look for bad weather to figure out what works and what doesn’t.) On the east coast you have to be prepared to weather 30 to 40 knots off shore with the best of weather planning. In my experience, it’s not the boat that fails it’s the crew. If I remember correctly, only three of 106 boats were lost in the Fastnet disaster. Tired and poorly prepared crews make bad decisions. Poorly prepared boats cause tired crew. Given the choice of an iron boat or an iron crew, I’ll go with the iron crew every time. A lot of wits will tell you that if you have to ask if your boat will take you offshore you are not ready to go offshore. It’s glib, but not helpful. We all have to start somewhere, and asking questions and reading is the right place. Good luck. Most of all plan and then go. There is nothing like it.
David hit all the right points. Check out Don Street’s article on offshore prep in the last three issues of Cruising World. He covers boat and crew preparation as well as route planning. I’m sailing my h356 to the Virgins next year, but I’m also spending the year preparing the boat and the crew. (We look for bad weather to figure out what works and what doesn’t.) On the east coast you have to be prepared to weather 30 to 40 knots off shore with the best of weather planning. In my experience, it’s not the boat that fails it’s the crew. If I remember correctly, only three of 106 boats were lost in the Fastnet disaster. Tired and poorly prepared crews make bad decisions. Poorly prepared boats cause tired crew. Given the choice of an iron boat or an iron crew, I’ll go with the iron crew every time. A lot of wits will tell you that if you have to ask if your boat will take you offshore you are not ready to go offshore. It’s glib, but not helpful. We all have to start somewhere, and asking questions and reading is the right place. Good luck. Most of all plan and then go. There is nothing like it.
several good books
are available. One on choosing a cruising boat I liked because they had three ideal boats. An overnighter ,a coastal crusier and a world cruiser. Another good book is by John Vigor. He stresses that you should think inverted!!!! He gave information on wave heights that it takes to roll a boat. That's the idea of a coastal cruiser. It takes a few days to get the big waves and a wise coastal cruiser is in harbor before they get too large. But blue water assumes you can't reach safety. There are lot's of resources available. One thing about strength is that a light weight boat might survive but beat the crew to death. We spent one night in a rough anchorage. Nothing too extreme but we felt exhausted the next morning. I was thinking 3 or four times as rough out in the gulf and trying to steer all night!!!! Wow it would be hard. Before you head offshore too far go out in the bay on some windy days say 25-30 and gusty. If you are comfortable in the bay go out and try it. I was in a gale in the Bahamas on a dive trip. 45' heavy sailboat. Almost everyone was puking until they were empty and then dry heaving. I caught myself a couple of times as I was being tossed out of my berth. I can only imagine what it'd be like in a light weight boat. The crew didn't attempt to sail they just motored into the wind until they got behind an island and we dove in it's lee for a couple days until the gale stopped.
are available. One on choosing a cruising boat I liked because they had three ideal boats. An overnighter ,a coastal crusier and a world cruiser. Another good book is by John Vigor. He stresses that you should think inverted!!!! He gave information on wave heights that it takes to roll a boat. That's the idea of a coastal cruiser. It takes a few days to get the big waves and a wise coastal cruiser is in harbor before they get too large. But blue water assumes you can't reach safety. There are lot's of resources available. One thing about strength is that a light weight boat might survive but beat the crew to death. We spent one night in a rough anchorage. Nothing too extreme but we felt exhausted the next morning. I was thinking 3 or four times as rough out in the gulf and trying to steer all night!!!! Wow it would be hard. Before you head offshore too far go out in the bay on some windy days say 25-30 and gusty. If you are comfortable in the bay go out and try it. I was in a gale in the Bahamas on a dive trip. 45' heavy sailboat. Almost everyone was puking until they were empty and then dry heaving. I caught myself a couple of times as I was being tossed out of my berth. I can only imagine what it'd be like in a light weight boat. The crew didn't attempt to sail they just motored into the wind until they got behind an island and we dove in it's lee for a couple days until the gale stopped.
Boats
IMHO- a great place to start with research on this subject is Joshua Slocum's little book. I have a friend in the USCG that feels it is more of a people or person thing than a boat thing while at the same time recognizing that some boats are just not suitable for travel outside protected waters. I have enjoyed reading the excellent postings on this thread. BOL in your quest!
IMHO- a great place to start with research on this subject is Joshua Slocum's little book. I have a friend in the USCG that feels it is more of a people or person thing than a boat thing while at the same time recognizing that some boats are just not suitable for travel outside protected waters. I have enjoyed reading the excellent postings on this thread. BOL in your quest!
Coastal more demanding than blue water
We just returned from 4 months of sailing our Hunter Legend 43 "Rivendel II" in the Vanuatu archipelago and have talked about the issues discussed in this thread with many a bluewater cruiser over the 10 years or so that we have been cruising the North and South Pacific. I agree with what David and others have already said about the relative importance of the various seaworthiness factors involved, namely: (1) the level of expertise and trip preparation of the crew; (2) their mental and physical condition; (3) boat preparation and maintenance; and (4) vessel design and construction. However. I would like to add that coastal cruising is on average far more demanding and much less safe than bluewater cruising. Not only does one often find the roughest weather and seastate conditions near the coasts, there are the obvious issues of vessel traffic, drunken drivers, fishing nets, pirates, threatening officials, currents, tides, searoom, lee shores, reefs, flotsam, fishing nets, and so on and so forth, that tend to bring far more cruisers into harms way there than out on the ocean. Consequently, most bluewater cruisers we have met feel safer when they are a few days away from land than when the shore is in sight or just over the horizon. Just as the common impulse of novice scuba divers is to swim quickly to the surface in case of trouble, thereby courting serious complications or even death, many beginning cruisers feel safe in the neighborhood of land, whereas in reality an emergency landfall may be the most dangerous part of the entire voyage (see for instance the article by an experienced delivery captain in a recent issue of Sail). If you are counting instead on getting plucked of a vessel in heavy seas and surf near the coast by a helicopter, think again. Some of the most tragic losses at sea (among rescuers as well as rescued) have occurred in precisely that type of scenario over the past one or two decades. The good news is: if you and your vessel are truly and justifiably comfortable while cruising in busy & rough coastal waters you should at most be a few months of preparation away from bluewater passages between the Tropics of Capricorn and Cancer. In fact, chances are that the coastal trip necessary to reach or leave these latitudes will be the most challenging part of the entire voyage! Have fun, Flying Dutchman
We just returned from 4 months of sailing our Hunter Legend 43 "Rivendel II" in the Vanuatu archipelago and have talked about the issues discussed in this thread with many a bluewater cruiser over the 10 years or so that we have been cruising the North and South Pacific. I agree with what David and others have already said about the relative importance of the various seaworthiness factors involved, namely: (1) the level of expertise and trip preparation of the crew; (2) their mental and physical condition; (3) boat preparation and maintenance; and (4) vessel design and construction. However. I would like to add that coastal cruising is on average far more demanding and much less safe than bluewater cruising. Not only does one often find the roughest weather and seastate conditions near the coasts, there are the obvious issues of vessel traffic, drunken drivers, fishing nets, pirates, threatening officials, currents, tides, searoom, lee shores, reefs, flotsam, fishing nets, and so on and so forth, that tend to bring far more cruisers into harms way there than out on the ocean. Consequently, most bluewater cruisers we have met feel safer when they are a few days away from land than when the shore is in sight or just over the horizon. Just as the common impulse of novice scuba divers is to swim quickly to the surface in case of trouble, thereby courting serious complications or even death, many beginning cruisers feel safe in the neighborhood of land, whereas in reality an emergency landfall may be the most dangerous part of the entire voyage (see for instance the article by an experienced delivery captain in a recent issue of Sail). If you are counting instead on getting plucked of a vessel in heavy seas and surf near the coast by a helicopter, think again. Some of the most tragic losses at sea (among rescuers as well as rescued) have occurred in precisely that type of scenario over the past one or two decades. The good news is: if you and your vessel are truly and justifiably comfortable while cruising in busy & rough coastal waters you should at most be a few months of preparation away from bluewater passages between the Tropics of Capricorn and Cancer. In fact, chances are that the coastal trip necessary to reach or leave these latitudes will be the most challenging part of the entire voyage! Have fun, Flying Dutchman
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