Big Alternator

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Dec 28, 2010
23
Endeavour 37'4" plan A Niceville Florida
Yea I need one. The perkins 4-108 came with an anemic 60 amp at best? Its time to build a better charging system. My house bank is 660 amp hours of wet cell. With a dedicated cranking bank that is separated/combined with an ACR combiner. I've read some not so encouraging things about some blue product alternators/charge controllers and was interested in what others where running/using/mistakes. i found that trans atlantic diesel sells a cool serpentine kit and Ample Tech sells a heafty near 200 amp alt........ so i guess im trying to get info from others with the perkins 4-108 that have gone befor me.

thanks the new guy
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Don't waste your money

Hey aduffE37
I don't know your boat load/electrical usage but as a general rule big alternators are not all they are cracked up to be. Remember who is selling the things and get your info from someone who is not trying to put his kids through college on your dime.
With that said, lead acid batteries have this nasty feature that when they get above around 70% charged they automagicaly stop taking massive charge rates. So while your honking big alternator will surly bring your bank up from 0 to 70% in a short time, getting that last 30% in is going to take time no matter how big the alternator. So ask yourself; How often do I drain my batteries below 70% and how far below 70% do I drain them. If you are like most you prefer to not drain your bank deeply so as to extend your battery cycle life. If that is the case then I can make a pretty good argument against a huge alternator. Your 60 amp is a tad undersized for your 660 AH bank but not something worrisome.
What I have found is a small charge (wind/water) all day long is much better than a surge alternator) for an hour a day.
I have a spread sheet that crunches the numbers for you. email william-roosa@us.army.mil if you want a copy
 
Feb 10, 2004
4,235
Hunter 40.5 Warwick, RI
Bill is correct about the charge acceptance of flooded wet cells. I have a 80A Balmar on my Volvo MD22L and I replaced my OE 60A unit.

The reason that I replaced with just a 20A increase for my 440AH bank is that it allowed me to use an external multi-step regulator that would monitor my bank and increase the drive to the alternator to more rapidly charge the last 30%. For an alternator using the standard automotive type regulator, the taper-off of charging is a big disadvantage for deep cycle batteries and Bill's argument against just a larger alternator is valid.

The other not-so-obvious advantage of a large alternator is the real-world rating. The standard 60A alternator that was OE on your engine as well as mine is rated at the 60A output as a PEAK current not the RMS or average current. 60A peak current is really only about 42A average. The rating also only applies to a cold alternator- the current rating goes down when the alternator is hot and in heavy use. An OE 60A alternator when hot may only put out 35A average.

In contrast, the true high output alternators (such as the Balmar) are rated at full RMS or average output when HOT. HOT is 250 F. Many of these HO alternators are built with DUAL INTERNAL fans that both suck air in one end and blow it out the other end. This results in much better cooling and long life at constant high outputs. The OE alternators usually have one external fan next to the pulley for cooling.

Conclusion? Bill is correct about the acceptance rate of flooded cells. But IMO this characteristic can be mitigated to some extent with an external regulator. But an OE alternator won't live long with an external regulator adapted to it because of the cooling and derating issues.
 
Dec 28, 2010
23
Endeavour 37'4" plan A Niceville Florida
Damn

Now thats what kinda real world advice i'm talking about.


An OE 60A alternator when hot may only put out 35A average.
Which is exactly what my Link 20 Battery Monitor shows once the engine gets warmed up.

I see both points here. But for my size bank i know how long i had to run my engine during last winters run into the Bahamas. I will be adding a charge contoller to get the most out of the system. Sounds as if the Balmar unit will match up to this Ample Tech alternator. The rep thinks the large case and or the small case will work. i'm thinking the 140 amp will do well...... given that it will do much better the my 65 amp alt in real world situations.

Dose anyone have any first hand knowlege of Ample Tech, is that cosher to ask on an open board?
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,981
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
OK, so hypothetically how am I doing?

These threads are fascinating! On my boat (Catalina 310) I have a near stock 60 amp alternator and two 4D lead acid batteries. I also have a 15 watt solar panel with a desulphinating charge controller. I normally do not plug into shore power unless I am spending the night on the boat and feel I need to run a lot of stuff. I have a 15" lcd tv that I run off an small inverter, VHF w/remote, AM/FM stereo, 12vdc refrigerator, Humminbird chart plotter, S1 Autopilot, instruments and the standard complement of lights (have not upgraded to LEDs). Have not had a lot of concerns about capacity as it works for me.

Giving the thoughts in this thread and MS's musing on the link, I am thinking life is grand. Am I wrong?
 
Dec 28, 2010
23
Endeavour 37'4" plan A Niceville Florida
These threads are fascinating! On my boat (Catalina 310) I have a near stock 60 amp alternator and two 4D lead acid batteries. I also have a 15 watt solar panel with a desulphinating charge controller. I normally do not plug into shore power unless I am spending the night on the boat and feel I need to run a lot of stuff. I have a 15" lcd tv that I run off an small inverter, VHF w/remote, AM/FM stereo, 12vdc refrigerator, Humminbird chart plotter, S1 Autopilot, instruments and the standard complement of lights (have not upgraded to LEDs). Have not had a lot of concerns about capacity as it works for me.

Giving the thoughts in this thread and MS's musing on the link, I am thinking life is grand. Am I wrong?
Humm i wonder what you 4 D's think about all that? Only way to really know is getting a battery monitor. From what i gather it's the best way to extend the life of your bank (granted you charge back up once you've hit your designated floor of 20% discharged or 40% discharged the least the better).
 

CarlN

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Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
Talk to Ham over at Hamilton Ferris. Been around a long time. Knows boats and what works. Not as cheap as some but top quality and service.

http://www.hamiltonferris.com/alternators.html

As suggested above a "large case" alternator is a whole different animal than small case. The challenge is cost and figuring out a mounting.

Carl
 
Jan 1, 2006
8,011
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
These threads are fascinating! On my boat (Catalina 310) I have a near stock 60 amp alternator and two 4D lead acid batteries. I also have a 15 watt solar panel with a desulphinating charge controller. I normally do not plug into shore power unless I am spending the night on the boat and feel I need to run a lot of stuff. I have a 15" lcd tv that I run off an small inverter, VHF w/remote, AM/FM stereo, 12vdc refrigerator, Humminbird chart plotter, S1 Autopilot, instruments and the standard complement of lights (have not upgraded to LEDs). Have not had a lot of concerns about capacity as it works for me.

Giving the thoughts in this thread and MS's musing on the link, I am thinking life is grand. Am I wrong?
Life is indeed grand!
How many nights can you go without plugging in? My 12vdc frige will deplete my 2 4d's in about 4 days if I'm not plugged in (Don't ask-cocktails may have been involved). I don't see how yours is much different except the 15 watt solar which can only put out about an amp per hour (watts/12 volts). For all day maybe 10 ah's. What am I missing?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Life is indeed grand!
How many nights can you go without plugging in? My 12vdc frige will deplete my 2 4d's in about 4 days if I'm not plugged in (Don't ask-cocktails may have been involved). I don't see how yours is much different except the 15 watt solar which can only put out about an amp per hour (watts/12 volts). For all day maybe 10 ah's. What am I missing?
My C-310 fridge used between 60 & 80 Ah's/day..

The life of batteries is directly proportional to the number of discharges as well as the DOD or depth of discharge.

Cycling the batteries to a 50% DOD is the generally accepted low you want to regularly discharge to. If you can keep your state of charge to 60% or 70% you're doing even better and your batteries will last longer and give a longer cycle life.

One other thing that is often overlooked, is that when away from shore power, and charging off an alternator, you will rarely get back to any more than 80-85% of capacity so your real usable Ah's from a 200 amp bank quickly become 80-85 amp hours of usable battery life before you hit 50% DOD..


Here's some math:

The generally accepted max discharge depth for deep cycle batts is 50% of rated Ah capacity.

The average group 4D has only 160Ah's. With two @ 160 Ah you will get a max of 160 Ah of usable capacity for two batteries in parallel before hitting the 50% threshold.

Two Group 4D's

160Ah + 160 Ah = 320 Ah's (Based on Exide Nautilus 4D)

160 Ah's use @ a 50% DOD = 160 Ah's left

160 Ah - This is your usable capacity if you can guarantee a 100% charge every day.

If recharging while away from the dock, with an alternator, the best you can usually get back to is about 80% SOC.

80% SOC of a 320 Ah bank = 256 Ah's of usable capacity

256 Ah's (80%) - 160 Ah's (to a 50% SOC) = 96 usable Ah's while out cruising!

96 Ah's - This is your usable Ah capacity while away from the dock and only using the alternator to re-charge.

An AB fridge can draw 5+/- amps. If you figure it runs for 50% of the 24 hour day, on our 310 it often ran a lot more than 50%, you've burned about 60 Ah's with just the fridge or 62.5% of your total usable bank capacity while away from the dock using the 80% rule.

Ideally you should do an energy budget to know what your other draws total. It seems that RP can do one night without charging at this point if he wants to follow the 50% - 80% guideline..

As I mentioned before consider a battery monitor as it will tell you how efficient your fridge really is. Some fridges cycle as low as 25% and some as high as 80% of the time. That can be a big difference and could be a costly mistake if it is a high cycler vs. a low cycler.

A Victron BMV-600 Battery Monitor (LINK) will be the best $158.10 you've spent..

Based on two Nautilus Gold 4D's you certainly can run your fridge over night depending upon your other consumption needs. Other needs might include anchor light, cabin lights, plotter, radar, stereo, VHF, depth, wind speed, water pressure etc. etc. etc.. Going for multiple days will lead to short battery life as the math above shows..
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,981
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
Nice math

I may just do the Victron. So far for my needs (usually only about 2 days at a time out) we are squeaking by. Perhaps it is time to upgrade the solar panels.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Designing by buying lots of parts that might work

I would recommend designing the boat electrical system like a system. Loads-storage-production. Start with reducing your loads by changing your habits or adding more insulation to the reefer/freezer, getting LED bulbs etc, then tackle the production. I have found that if you use the electricity as you produce it you get something like 20% more AH because you avoid the charge-storage-discharge efficiencies in the batteries. So running your reefer only during the day when the solar panels are working is better than running it during the night and collecting it during the day. same idea for large loads like windlasses, winches, or inverter loads, if you can supply the power directly without involving the batteries directly you are getting more out of your production and saving your batts. Then look at what your stoarge needs are. Bigger is ALWAYS better from a battery life and convienyance point of view.
I would not go out and buy solar panels because the guy next slip over has a set and enjoys them. he may not be using his like you would need to use yours.
Since the reefer is a BIG energy user i would suggest a holding plate so you have some options as to when you run the reefer. The holding plate is like a heat battery and if you can turn on the compressor when motoring up the river to that anchorage or during the day when the solar panels are kicking in you will be much happier. Alternatly go the engine driven compressor route.
I guess my point is it takes some thought to get a solution that works well and does not cost an arm and a leg. It ain't rocket science but it ain't trial and error either.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I may just do the Victron.
The Victron at J.D. is on backorder until the 14th. You might find them locally. At a local Annapolis place, the single-bank model was more than at other places, but the 2-bank model was cheaper then other places.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,981
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
Like the 2 bank one

I may just do the Victron.
The Victron at J.D. is on backorder until the 14th. You might find them locally. At a local Annapolis place, the single-bank model was more than at other places, but the 2-bank model was cheaper then other places.
I also emailed them (Victron) last night with a question about their software interface and had a response back from the Netherlands in my email this morning.
 
Oct 10, 2008
38
Ericson 34 Lk Champlain
At a local Annapolis place, the single-bank model was more than at other places, but the 2-bank model was cheaper then other places.
You have all probably heard the old line about the man with one watch is happy, but the man with two watches is confused.

It's also true with Victron battery monitors. I have a BMV-602 with an extra voltage input for my start battery. The two voltmeter readings differ by .08 volts with the batteries unloaded and the 1-2-both switch on both. While this discrepancy looks unreasonable, with a +/- 0.3% accuracy quoted it is possible that it meets specs (one reading +.3% & the other -.3%). I suspect that one of the readings is way out of spec, but I can't verify it without a voltage standard. I will point out that one of the readings does agree with my Fluke meter.

I did write to Victron about this problem and got no response. In their defense, they had been very good about dealing with other problems I had with the monitors.

When they hire me to do their design I will point out that it is very bad practice to have a meter significantly more precise than it is accurate. :naughty:
 
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Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
electricity 102

Try measuring the AT the battery and not through a wire that leads to the battery.
I think you mean 0.8 not 0.08 volts for the difference between 40 and 100% charged. As a rule of thumb each connection is "allowed" to have a voltage drop of no more than 0.05 volts to be classified as "good." So what we have here is just the normal difference in voltage due to normal connections resistance.
You can imporve your voltage reporting by turning everything off BTW. Voltage drops only occure with the passage of current and are proportional to the amount of current passing.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
electricity 103

Try this for an illumination of voltage drop.
Grab your multimeter and set it to the lowest DC voltage range
measure from the battery terminal proper to the clamp that attaches to it.
if there is no current flowing then you will probably get 0 volts
if there is some current flowing then you will get a voltage drop of a few tenths or hundredths of a volt. The more current the bigger the drop
This technique can be use to great advantage to find corroded connectors and is the reason most multimeter probes have pointed ends. To punch through the insulation on the wire on either side of the connector.
 
Oct 10, 2008
38
Ericson 34 Lk Champlain
Bill - You are correct, I goofed on reading the graph. It was 0.8 volts. It was late.

That said, the BMV measurements were verified by switching the leads as they go into the BMV connectors. My Fluke also thought they were identical. The load on input one is 4 ma max and the load on input 2 is the meter current, neither a concern.

If you have 80 mv drop in a digital voltmeter with 10 mv resolution and suggest that that is acceptable you either are a salesman for the company or are not familiar with digital meters. Regardless, I would not consider a 50 mv drop in a 12 volt metering circuit to be "good".

All said, there is no reason for one meter to read two inputs of one signal that differently. This being the third meter they sent me gives a message.

The Link 10 monitor, which I preferred for a few different reasons, had a resolution of 50 mv, and the current Xantrex monitors have 100 mv resolution. This eliminates the problem of resolution greater than accuracy.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
All said, there is no reason for one meter to read two inputs of one signal that differently. This being the third meter they sent me gives a message.
Tom,

You have had terrible luck with your Victron monitors. That being said I think I have only installed one 602 and it worked fine. The 600's have been good for me thus far.

Personally I own a Link 10, XBM and a Link Pro. The XBM & Pro have been flawless the Link 10 rather buggy so I use it on my bench in the barn. The Xantrex units are very expensive for what they do and more complicated to install for a DIY. Also the comm wire is extra thus making them even more costly. Xantrex tech support is also rather lacking so I have been happy with Victron's support thus far but then again only needed them once and Xantrex many times over the years due to lots of product failures & issues. Ask me about the early Pathmaker devices some day..;):doh:

Please keep us informed of the outcome. Three monitors, and still issues, is a message!!:doh:
 
Oct 10, 2008
38
Ericson 34 Lk Champlain
I'm not pursuing it. As long as it doesn't change I can live with it. It gives me discharge info which is all I really need. I have other voltmeters.

Who knows if the ampere reading is accurate? And the reality is that the world won't end if ampere-hours are off by 5 or 10%. There is nothing magic about the 50% discharge limit; it is just a convenient point on the cycle/life curve.
 
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