Best Cruising Rig - Sloop, Cutter, Cat, Ketch, Junk?

[RichH]

Agree with Tom S .....

Sloops are simpler. Fractional Sloops (with max. mast height UNDER 60 ft so you can clear most large bridges) are even better as all you have to do reef the main ... or sail on main ONLY. A fractional sloop with a removable spinnaker furler/foil will remove the disadvantages of the fractional sloop for down-wind sailing .... just furl the A-spinn when not needed. True Cutters are for close to broad reaching (trade-wind sailing) and are poorer for beating and dead-downwind running. Plus cutters are usually HEAVY boats that require a LOT of sail area to keep them moving at speed. I have a 'heavy' cutter and my choice was dependent on the WEIGHT of the largest sail that I might have to manhandle someday on a wet pitching deck .... a SAFETY consideration. BTW a healthy individual probably cant manhandle more than a 400 sq. ft. sail on deck when the seas/winds get 'boisterous'. A cutter is 'versatile' but to make it really versatile one needs a forestay (the stay that staysail flys on a cutter) to be removable, as tacking a cutter constantly is a BIG PITA. A true cutter has the mast at approx. 40-50% of the LOA (Robt. Perry or Bill Crealock designs are close to 'true' cutters) and the CE is in FRONT of the mast and are sailed 'differently' than sloops. Double headed 'sloops' are still sloops and are sailed like a sloop ... Island Packets, etc. Ketches, etc. simply have too many sails to work and need larger crews ... and when going upwind only the headsails are the ones that are 'working' .... the 'aft' sails just sitting there in the turbulance/windshadow of the foresails. For 'ease' especially for 'coastal' that requires a lot a beating .... go with the simplicity of a (fractional) sloop.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Rich, I agree and disagree

I agree with most of what you said about cutters and tacking, but consider that they are not designed for lake or bay sailing where you are constantly tacking. Most of the time even when on a 24 to 48 hour run in open water (including coastal)you may never tack except to get into a harbor. At that point, you might just as well remove the staysail and the inner stay. Only minutes of effort.I think when it comes to a ketch rig, you are way off base. A ketch, like a yawl is nothing more than a slooop with a tail feather. Generally speaking they only have one more sail than a sloop (the mizzen)and that is comparatively small. It does not require much trimming. The main reason that most cruisers prefer a ketch is because it requires SMALLER crews LESS work. The individual sails are smaller than would be on a similar size sloop. When going upwind, all of the sails that you have working on a sloop are the same as on a ketch except for the mizzen which is small and easily doused by an old woman when on a close reach and leaving only the mizzen mast itself for turbulance. Not a bad drawback when one considers that we dont always sail close hauled. When it comes to heavy weather, the ketch is the easiest rig to handle and balance by an aging couple. BTW, thanks for mentioning the removable spinnaker furler/foil. I am not familiar with that and will do some investigation. IMHOTony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Charlie Cobra

Thanks for the impressive pics.You wrote "Make sure ya rig a detachable backstay for the Mizzen if ya fly a spinnaker off of it. Ya don't wanna lump on yer head." Since I personally have never flown a mizzen spinnaker, I dont understand what you are saying.Also you siad "the Mizzen Staysail's a bit of a pain.....and not much good for anything other than a Beam Reach." does this mean you prefer a mizzen chute over the mizzen staysail? Appreciate all the info you can give me based on your experiences. I hate to invest what little money I have wrongly. Reply | Print Thread | Report violation

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

TomS and RichH., anyone...HELP

I am spinnaker challenged. I have zero knowledge. All I know is that I myself and GF (ages 61 and 66) do not want a spinnaker. WE are however convinced that we need a cruising spinnaker. We are planning to have one made in about 4 months. I was told by a sailmaker that a cruising chute and a turtle would fit the bill for us. Until yesterday after your replies, I didnt know that you could get a furler for a cruising chute and never heard of a code zero. So far all i could find on the internet was the falcor website. What are your personal experiences with these and where can i go to get more info other than a sailmaker?Tony B

 

[Tom S]

Tony B. I don't have the answers, but did a little research

And I have been trying to look for someone with some experience.This could start a whole new discussion thread (and I am sure I will in the near future to get ideas and inputs)Typically a Assym Spinnaker (Cruising Chute) is kept in a big bag (turtle bag) that you drag to the bow of the boat and then hoist on your spinnaker halyard after you tack the bottom to some strong point to the bow of the boat and bring a spinnaker sheet way aft (usually to a turning block at the stern somewhere) and then to your winch's.Until recently the Assym Spinnaker was usually kept in a spinnaker sock (like ATN which I highly recommend -- a little more expensive but it works much smoother and better than most). When you want to set the Assym Spinnaker you sail a course somewhat downwind and pull a line on the spinnaker sock which will pull the sock up to the top of the Assym Spinnaker and you are sailing.Here is a link to the ATN sock. It shows it pretty well. http://www.atninc.com/sleeve.htmlThis system works pretty well, but the downside to this is having to go forward to raise and douse the spinnaker.Lately (I think with the advent of the Ocean Series races and some America's Cups) they started perfecting sails that are a cross between a Genny and a Assym Spinnaker called a Code 0 (and there are other names and styles like Code 1, Gennekers, UPS etc) They are cut sort of like an Assym Spinnaker (they can be cut flatter or fuller depending on what angle of sail you'd want to be sailing typically. Most go for the middle of the road). But the difference to a Spinnaker and the similarity to a Genny is that it has a high modulus luff rope built in it that acts like the foil on your roller furling Genny. These are then put on a special (usually) continuous line roller furler unit. With this you can just roll out and in your Code 0 when you want.But the real beauty I see in this system is that if I know its going to be a light wind weekend, I can raise this furled Code 0 or Assym Spinnaker at the dock and leave it up all weekend and available like an extra light wind genny (unless I think there is going to some snotty weather coming then I'd lower it and bag it)Now the newest this is a few systems that claim to roll up a traditional Assym Spinnaker that DON'T have the luff rope built into the sail. Supposedly you roll up the furler and it starts wrapping up the sail and winding it around a high modulous rope that's free and spinning on a furling drum.There are 3 systems that I have found for furling non-modified traditional Assym Spinnaker 's CDI, Bamar Roll Gen and Fancor. CDI and Balmar work similarly where there is a stop post on the top bearing which keep its the line from spinning so the sail mostly starts wrapping from the top. The Fancor requires a grommet put in the middle of the spinnaker luff with a little line that goes to the free high modulous rope and starts wrapping from that point. Here are the 3 links to the systemsCDI (which this site SailBoatowners resells) and is much less than the other systems (and made in America) http://www.sailcdi.com/Spinnakerfurler.htmBamar Roll Gen (Similar to CDI but the continuous line is permanently captured and it have a rubber Luff foil over the rope) (made in Italy) http://www.bamar-na.com/rollgenspinnakerfurler.htmlTheir brochure has a great chart of the relative effective of different Code 0 or Spinnaker type sails at different wind angles -- http://www.bamar.it/new_pdf/bamar/e_c10-90.pdfFacnor is here Looks like well machined piece of gear. Not cheap though (made in France) http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/fichiers/asymfxuk.pdfPractical Sailor this month did a piece on all these types of loose Luff Sail furlers and their comments were fairly good.Alright -- whos' going to be the guinea pig

 

[Stillraining]

Tom

That is wild...This is also new to me...I have now got to have one of thoes...this leaves me with one problum now though what to do with my spinnaker pole...

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Tom maybe this should be a new thread

because you can douse a cruising chute from the cockpit if your halyard and guy are lead there. The guy is the line that holds the tack down at the stem and should run through a block. By releasing the guy and halyard you can douse just like a conventional chute.There are other schemes too, like spinnaker launchers with chute collapsing and dousing lines that are used by many racing classes where they douse, luff up, fall back off and reset the std chute and head off again. Merriman made a dip pole method self jibing pole that could be totally controlled from the cockpit way back in the 60'sOn a T-bird, I used a scheme where you could douse the chute drop the pole and tack immediately without anyone going forward.I don't like the Idea of rapping up spinnakers because with the extra cloth they are billowey (?), and nylon is sun sensitive. So why would you want to shorten the life of a perfectly good chute?

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Thanks tom...a whole new world

Thanks for your research. Now I have to think before I spend, gee, thats a new concept.Seriously. This is great info since I plan on going with some kind of cruising chute before the fall sets in. Keeep the info flowing guys whether on here or on another thread.Thanks againTony B

 

[Stillraining]

Wow Rich

You can come sail on and or teach me on my boat anytime you want...What a great writing and instructional way you have...I have learned already...I really appreciate the knowledge and free giving of it this site offers...I'M sold Starting to save for one today..

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Thanks Rich and Tom

I too have just got a wonderful educationfrom you guys. Just when I thought life was gettin simple. Soooo many toys to choose from. All I have to do is win the lottery. Now i dont know if I want a A-Sym, Code o, Code 1, Code Blue, 911, s**t or get off the pot, LOLGreat info and research. Thanks again.

 

[RichH]

Thanks for the kudos ....

I learned by asking from those who knew how, etc. and 'paid it forward' to me. I'm only 'paying it forward' to you so you can 'pay it forward' to someone else later on.

 

[CharlieCobra]

I have an 2A Assym in a sock for Oh Joy.

It's a great sail up to about 15 knots. I was using the ATN tacker but it kinked my foil when we got knocked down so I'm putting a sheave forward of the headstay on the sprit instead. Tony, the reason you want a detachable backstay for the Mizzen when flying a Mizzen spinnaker is that the Mizzen mast has no backstay OEM. Running a chute off the Mizzen would pull it down on your head in a good puff if stock.The Mizzen Staysail doesn't have a luff wire or a stay so it's rather useless to windward. On a Beam reach it works fine since the tack and clew are free tied to whatever hardware is available. Also, it's a low hanging sail so you have to duck it when doing anything in the cockpit.The Mule looks like a cool sail if you could hank it on the Mainmast backstay. It'd take two halyards though. One on the Mainmast and one on the Mizzenmast. It'd sure fill that hole betwixt the Main and Mizzen.