Like most other things in life, there is no such thing as the "best" as a general statement. There is of course, the 'best for my needs' What would you consider the best rig for a middle aged couple going coastal or bluewater cruising and why?
Best Cruising Rig - Sloop, Cutter, Cat, Ketch, Junk?
- Thread starter sailortonyb Allied Mis
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Tim
Just so you dont feel ignored, i edited my post to include "Cat". I take it you have sailed on one. I know most owners love them. They are beautiful and romantic looking under sail and I could definately see the advantage of tacking. How difficult would it be for a typical middle aged couple to raise that large sail? Do you feel uneasy without a stayed mast? How are they in heavy weather? Tony B
Just so you dont feel ignored, i edited my post to include "Cat". I take it you have sailed on one. I know most owners love them. They are beautiful and romantic looking under sail and I could definately see the advantage of tacking. How difficult would it be for a typical middle aged couple to raise that large sail? Do you feel uneasy without a stayed mast? How are they in heavy weather? Tony B
Cutter Ketch
I personally like the option of more sails especially off shore. If you have the money, and for ease of operation I'd go with all roller furling. I like being able to run with the mizzen and the staysail in heavy weather. Would also go with a full keel, or modified full keel for stability. It isn't as maneuverable as a fin keel and spade rudder, but is much easier for the auto pilot to handle under most conditions. JMHO Pantrick
I personally like the option of more sails especially off shore. If you have the money, and for ease of operation I'd go with all roller furling. I like being able to run with the mizzen and the staysail in heavy weather. Would also go with a full keel, or modified full keel for stability. It isn't as maneuverable as a fin keel and spade rudder, but is much easier for the auto pilot to handle under most conditions. JMHO Pantrick
Cutter Ketch is best choice
I agree 100% with Patrick. I have a ketch (but not cutter). The flexibility of sail configurations are great. And the ability to run with the mizzen and staysail (Jib and jigger) in heavy weather is a god-send. Its much easier to drop the mainsail than to reef it and with jib and jigger the boat is still standing up, balanced and sailing at or exceeding hull speed. Under most sailing conditions, you set the mizzen and center it and forget it.
I agree 100% with Patrick. I have a ketch (but not cutter). The flexibility of sail configurations are great. And the ability to run with the mizzen and staysail (Jib and jigger) in heavy weather is a god-send. Its much easier to drop the mainsail than to reef it and with jib and jigger the boat is still standing up, balanced and sailing at or exceeding hull speed. Under most sailing conditions, you set the mizzen and center it and forget it.
Having been very..
Quote: "They are beautiful and romantic looking under sail and I could definately see the advantage of tacking. How difficult would it be for a typical middle aged couple to raise that large sail? Do you feel uneasy without a stayed mast? How are they in heavy weather?" Having been very involved with the Nonsuch association I can assure you these boats are easily handled by an older couple. Most Nonsuch owners are in their mid to late 50's and up and there are very, very few young Nonsuch owners. Many of the Nonsuchs have electric/manual halyard winches for raising the sail so that's not an issue. While there have been a few reported mast failures they are NOT common and are usually due to "owner error". By this I mean an owner drilling holes in the spar like they could on a stayed rig. You can't and don't want to do that on an un-stayed rig. Heavy weather is only OK. While they are very, very well built boats they are relatively flat on the bottom and as such can and do pound in heavy seas. I would consider the construction techniques used in the Nonsuch to be "blue water" but not the design.. P.S. I like the simplicity of a cutter rig if I was to do any long distance voyaging but would never turn up my nose at a good sloop..
Quote: "They are beautiful and romantic looking under sail and I could definately see the advantage of tacking. How difficult would it be for a typical middle aged couple to raise that large sail? Do you feel uneasy without a stayed mast? How are they in heavy weather?" Having been very involved with the Nonsuch association I can assure you these boats are easily handled by an older couple. Most Nonsuch owners are in their mid to late 50's and up and there are very, very few young Nonsuch owners. Many of the Nonsuchs have electric/manual halyard winches for raising the sail so that's not an issue. While there have been a few reported mast failures they are NOT common and are usually due to "owner error". By this I mean an owner drilling holes in the spar like they could on a stayed rig. You can't and don't want to do that on an un-stayed rig. Heavy weather is only OK. While they are very, very well built boats they are relatively flat on the bottom and as such can and do pound in heavy seas. I would consider the construction techniques used in the Nonsuch to be "blue water" but not the design.. P.S. I like the simplicity of a cutter rig if I was to do any long distance voyaging but would never turn up my nose at a good sloop..
What an Interesting Forum
I haven't been on this site for very long even tho my bio says 0005 but it's interesting to hear all those different opinions . We're all opinionated and I'm no different; but at 71, previously being a professional racing crew, and having over 50 years sailing experience, I hope no one will begrudge me mine. In the size of my current 37' cruiser a sloop has worked fine for me and I have had no problems raising the main. Whenever I removed it, say for summer storage in Mexico, I had help and it was no problem. I have cursed my 135% genoa however when I have to pack it up, roll it up, put it in a big bag and cart it below, but I've managed. The cutter rig would seem better because it has smaller headsails, has more flexibility in heavy weather, and is easier to tack going up wind, but the big jib I have reduces fairly quickly with my roller furler, and I would hate to mess with running backstays which on a cutter offshore should always be set. Additionally most of my long distance cruising has been mostly off the wind. At about 40' and up however I believe in multiple masts to break up the sail plan and make sail handling easier. Even reefing or furling a big main has its problems and the cutter rig becomes more attractive even with runners. Your staysail on those boats may very well be on a boom to make weather work even easier. How the masts are configured however is a matter of personal taste as Ketches, Yawls, Schooners, or combinations of each like Yawl Rigged Ketches, Ketch rigged Yawls, Schooner Ketches and etc. I don't like cats except around a bay because without a headsail you can't heave to or balance the rig. Unstayed masts seem ok though, but I like to have a place to fly my pennants/flags And I have been known (in my younger days) to go up to the spreaders to have a longer look. So my personal history makes me more comfortable with stayed masts. I think that if I had an unstayed mast I might have to be very careful not to over trim the jib when going to weather. All boating is a personal thing, so anything can be just right for somebody, even the very experienced.
I haven't been on this site for very long even tho my bio says 0005 but it's interesting to hear all those different opinions . We're all opinionated and I'm no different; but at 71, previously being a professional racing crew, and having over 50 years sailing experience, I hope no one will begrudge me mine. In the size of my current 37' cruiser a sloop has worked fine for me and I have had no problems raising the main. Whenever I removed it, say for summer storage in Mexico, I had help and it was no problem. I have cursed my 135% genoa however when I have to pack it up, roll it up, put it in a big bag and cart it below, but I've managed. The cutter rig would seem better because it has smaller headsails, has more flexibility in heavy weather, and is easier to tack going up wind, but the big jib I have reduces fairly quickly with my roller furler, and I would hate to mess with running backstays which on a cutter offshore should always be set. Additionally most of my long distance cruising has been mostly off the wind. At about 40' and up however I believe in multiple masts to break up the sail plan and make sail handling easier. Even reefing or furling a big main has its problems and the cutter rig becomes more attractive even with runners. Your staysail on those boats may very well be on a boom to make weather work even easier. How the masts are configured however is a matter of personal taste as Ketches, Yawls, Schooners, or combinations of each like Yawl Rigged Ketches, Ketch rigged Yawls, Schooner Ketches and etc. I don't like cats except around a bay because without a headsail you can't heave to or balance the rig. Unstayed masts seem ok though, but I like to have a place to fly my pennants/flags And I have been known (in my younger days) to go up to the spreaders to have a longer look. So my personal history makes me more comfortable with stayed masts. I think that if I had an unstayed mast I might have to be very careful not to over trim the jib when going to weather. All boating is a personal thing, so anything can be just right for somebody, even the very experienced.
Even though a Cutter Ketch
Is a misnomer...(there really is no such animal...Twin headed Ketch is the correct vernacular)...I like the idea as well for all its versatility. Mine has the deck and mast hardware for the baby stay but I have not rigged it up as of yet...I asked about it here in another thread a while back regarding how to tack with the genoa and its complications going thru the small 4' slot..I think I have decided to rig it up as a removable stay for heavy weather sailing only with a hanked on sail..even having it there as a secondary backup to the main head stay while beating into 25kt would be a welcom feeling of insurance... Nice topic Allied...I would like to see this mature into how you all use your duel head sails as well..maybe through in some pictures of your setup and flying and tacking/gybing techniques...ie. Poles etc..
Is a misnomer...(there really is no such animal...Twin headed Ketch is the correct vernacular)...I like the idea as well for all its versatility. Mine has the deck and mast hardware for the baby stay but I have not rigged it up as of yet...I asked about it here in another thread a while back regarding how to tack with the genoa and its complications going thru the small 4' slot..I think I have decided to rig it up as a removable stay for heavy weather sailing only with a hanked on sail..even having it there as a secondary backup to the main head stay while beating into 25kt would be a welcom feeling of insurance... Nice topic Allied...I would like to see this mature into how you all use your duel head sails as well..maybe through in some pictures of your setup and flying and tacking/gybing techniques...ie. Poles etc..
Oh Joy is a modified Yawl.
She originally had the standard sloop mainmast with a shortened boom in lieu of the mizzen. Some PO added a 40" bowsprit, changed the original fractional forestay to a quick disconnect for the staysail, added a staysail boom. They also added a headstay with furling 135 Genny, a asymmetrical masthead spinnaker and a boomkin. This gave me more SA, from 600 to 815 Sq Ft and added versatility. I experimented a lot with differing configurations in different weather. Up to 30 knots, the Genny and Main work best upwind. Up to 20, the Genny, Main and Mizzen work best. I only use the Mizzen Staysail on a light air Beam Reach. In heavy air, a single reef Main and Staysail is good to about 45 knots to Windward. Offwind, I've run with full Genny, Main and Mizzen up to 45 knots but that's too much canvas. Full Genny and Main are good to about 35. I've done 8.5 knots in 50 true under the Staysail alone on a Broad Reach. I've done 8+ in 50 knots true on a Beam Reach with Staysail and a single reef in the Main but the rails were buried to the stanchion tops, a little much. I made the mistake of having the chute self deploy in 30+ and found out how dry the boat stays with the sticks in the water. I'm still working on what works best for light air as I haven't seen much of that yet.
She originally had the standard sloop mainmast with a shortened boom in lieu of the mizzen. Some PO added a 40" bowsprit, changed the original fractional forestay to a quick disconnect for the staysail, added a staysail boom. They also added a headstay with furling 135 Genny, a asymmetrical masthead spinnaker and a boomkin. This gave me more SA, from 600 to 815 Sq Ft and added versatility. I experimented a lot with differing configurations in different weather. Up to 30 knots, the Genny and Main work best upwind. Up to 20, the Genny, Main and Mizzen work best. I only use the Mizzen Staysail on a light air Beam Reach. In heavy air, a single reef Main and Staysail is good to about 45 knots to Windward. Offwind, I've run with full Genny, Main and Mizzen up to 45 knots but that's too much canvas. Full Genny and Main are good to about 35. I've done 8.5 knots in 50 true under the Staysail alone on a Broad Reach. I've done 8+ in 50 knots true on a Beam Reach with Staysail and a single reef in the Main but the rails were buried to the stanchion tops, a little much. I made the mistake of having the chute self deploy in 30+ and found out how dry the boat stays with the sticks in the water. I'm still working on what works best for light air as I haven't seen much of that yet.
Stillraining
My version is not double head stayed. I wish it was. I once contacted an owner of another Allied 39 Ketch and his was double head stayed. He sent me photos of the factory bow sprit - which mine dont have and also noted that his mast was about 2 feet higher than mine. He said with all 4 sails up, the staysail did add about 1/4 to 1/2 knot in speed. I'll try to find someone with a mast like mine and modified theirs into a double headstay and see how it works. Not all double headstayed rigs 'really' sail like a cutter and the owners use them only during heavy weather and drop the jib. I know a man than modified his Hunter 37 Cutter and aded a bowsprit and said that it sailed as a cutter much better. He had done some extensive cruising. Another Allied 39 Ketch owner with a configuration like mine tole me he rarely used the main. In Light air he used a Cruising chute, a mizzen staysail (goes from top of mizzen to the bottom of main mast) and the mizzen. Over 18 knots he used just the mizzen and jib. I am going to get a mizzen staysail made up and a cruising spinnaker. Tony B
My version is not double head stayed. I wish it was. I once contacted an owner of another Allied 39 Ketch and his was double head stayed. He sent me photos of the factory bow sprit - which mine dont have and also noted that his mast was about 2 feet higher than mine. He said with all 4 sails up, the staysail did add about 1/4 to 1/2 knot in speed. I'll try to find someone with a mast like mine and modified theirs into a double headstay and see how it works. Not all double headstayed rigs 'really' sail like a cutter and the owners use them only during heavy weather and drop the jib. I know a man than modified his Hunter 37 Cutter and aded a bowsprit and said that it sailed as a cutter much better. He had done some extensive cruising. Another Allied 39 Ketch owner with a configuration like mine tole me he rarely used the main. In Light air he used a Cruising chute, a mizzen staysail (goes from top of mizzen to the bottom of main mast) and the mizzen. Over 18 knots he used just the mizzen and jib. I am going to get a mizzen staysail made up and a cruising spinnaker. Tony B
Tony
I have seen that done from afar and wondered how they rigged it ( Mizzen stay sail ) you must have to have an extra shiv on the forward side of the mizzen mast to hoist it I would think...I happen to have one for ascending the mast I thought..maybe this is really what it is for ,I never really thought about it... Charlie..do you pull your boat in the summer?... we dont have enough wind around here for you that time of year...you crazzy man you..
I have seen that done from afar and wondered how they rigged it ( Mizzen stay sail ) you must have to have an extra shiv on the forward side of the mizzen mast to hoist it I would think...I happen to have one for ascending the mast I thought..maybe this is really what it is for ,I never really thought about it... Charlie..do you pull your boat in the summer?... we dont have enough wind around here for you that time of year...you crazzy man you..
Stillraining
I cant remember where i saw a mizzen staysail on the web, but its out there. Basically its a large jib with the top running through the shiv ion top of the mizzen (also used to hoist), the tack is on the base of the main boom or anywhere around that area and the clew is run to the middle or end of the mizzen boom. I understand its a pretty powerful sail. There is a slightly different cut to it also can be made up. It is a Mizzen jib. Prety much the same thing but used in going closer to the wind. To Tack, you have to drop the mizzen staysail and re-run it to the other side. I wouldnt suspect that to be a problem since its all done at a leisurely pace from in and around the cockpit area. I was told by a sailmaker that they only run about $600 - $700 dollars to make up. They are pretty small by comparison to a main or a jib and are easy to cut. I also was told that if you have the nerve, you can run a cruising spinnaker and a mizzen spinnaker at the same time. There are less efficient sails also avail for a ketch but look like fun. One such, i believe is called a banana. It fills the gap betwen the top of main mast over to the mizzen then down to the base of the mizzen and back up again. Tony B I will have a cruising spinnaker and mizzen staysail made up before the fall of this year. Tony B
I cant remember where i saw a mizzen staysail on the web, but its out there. Basically its a large jib with the top running through the shiv ion top of the mizzen (also used to hoist), the tack is on the base of the main boom or anywhere around that area and the clew is run to the middle or end of the mizzen boom. I understand its a pretty powerful sail. There is a slightly different cut to it also can be made up. It is a Mizzen jib. Prety much the same thing but used in going closer to the wind. To Tack, you have to drop the mizzen staysail and re-run it to the other side. I wouldnt suspect that to be a problem since its all done at a leisurely pace from in and around the cockpit area. I was told by a sailmaker that they only run about $600 - $700 dollars to make up. They are pretty small by comparison to a main or a jib and are easy to cut. I also was told that if you have the nerve, you can run a cruising spinnaker and a mizzen spinnaker at the same time. There are less efficient sails also avail for a ketch but look like fun. One such, i believe is called a banana. It fills the gap betwen the top of main mast over to the mizzen then down to the base of the mizzen and back up again. Tony B I will have a cruising spinnaker and mizzen staysail made up before the fall of this year. Tony B
Tonyb-post a picture when you get banana sail
This past summer I had a trucking assignment to DC. After I got there,I realized I was close to Annapolis (always wanted to experience Annapolis) Took highway 50 and was able to park a couple blocks from the city docks. Iwalked to the shore and saw one of the most beautiful sailing sights I have ever wittnesed. There were about seven twin masted yachts, I would guess about 45 feet racing in very tight formation. The sun was just going down, they all had big bow sprits and also those inverted triangle top sails between the main sails. They were all heeled at a similar angle and moving about as fast as I have ever seen a monohull go. Send a pic of yours when you get it rigged.
This past summer I had a trucking assignment to DC. After I got there,I realized I was close to Annapolis (always wanted to experience Annapolis) Took highway 50 and was able to park a couple blocks from the city docks. Iwalked to the shore and saw one of the most beautiful sailing sights I have ever wittnesed. There were about seven twin masted yachts, I would guess about 45 feet racing in very tight formation. The sun was just going down, they all had big bow sprits and also those inverted triangle top sails between the main sails. They were all heeled at a similar angle and moving about as fast as I have ever seen a monohull go. Send a pic of yours when you get it rigged.
Man that looks like fun
It would be neat to have an arsenal of sails to maximize all point of sail in any weather. There was a comment on another thread about how often most cruisers motor. I myself hardly ever motor but I have a little boat. It seems like on a big boat, with alot of sail choice, you might be more able to find a combination that might entice you to sail most of the time. Still Raining you are right about needing to remember to bring a camera. One thing I have started, when boating, is to buy a couple disposable waterproof cameras and just lay them around for anybody to grab that feels like it. Makes for some fun pics that I would not think of.
It would be neat to have an arsenal of sails to maximize all point of sail in any weather. There was a comment on another thread about how often most cruisers motor. I myself hardly ever motor but I have a little boat. It seems like on a big boat, with alot of sail choice, you might be more able to find a combination that might entice you to sail most of the time. Still Raining you are right about needing to remember to bring a camera. One thing I have started, when boating, is to buy a couple disposable waterproof cameras and just lay them around for anybody to grab that feels like it. Makes for some fun pics that I would not think of.
Make sure ya rig a detachable backstay for the Mizzen
if ya fly a spinnaker off of it. Ya don't wanna lump on yer head. Stillraining, I hear ya about the light air up here in the Summer. I can deal with it. She'll do 3.5 knots in 5 knots true. Any slower than that, I'll crank the motor, if I have someplace to go. Tony, I forget what that sail is called. I looked it up once some time ago. The Mizzen Staysail's a bit of a pain. It kinda gets in the way of folks in the cockpit and not much good for anything other than a Beam Reach.
if ya fly a spinnaker off of it. Ya don't wanna lump on yer head. Stillraining, I hear ya about the light air up here in the Summer. I can deal with it. She'll do 3.5 knots in 5 knots true. Any slower than that, I'll crank the motor, if I have someplace to go. Tony, I forget what that sail is called. I looked it up once some time ago. The Mizzen Staysail's a bit of a pain. It kinda gets in the way of folks in the cockpit and not much good for anything other than a Beam Reach.
For Coastal cruising I always thought a sloop
With a forward Code 0 (or Assymetrical) on a roller furler set up semi-permanently on a sprit would be my ideal set up. (thats actually what I am trying to do -- I am thinking about the CDI, Balmar or Facnor loose luffed Asymmetrical spinnaker furlers they have out now Practical Sailor just reviewed some -- I will save that for another thread.) I would have no more than a 135% genny and reasonable mainsail sloop that can handle 20-25kts without reefing (Like my boat now) and which when reefed can handle a constant 35kts if need be. Where I am the facts are that much of the time the winds are less than 8-10 kts so for parts of the summer. That is the reason for the semi-permanently Roller furler cruising spinnaker on a sprit. No need to drag out the turtle bag and raise and lower the spinnaker ever time the wind changes. Just roll it in and out when needed or to put away. I bet a lot more people would be sailing instead of motoring if it was easier to deploy and douse light wind sails. Offshore I always thought a cutter would be a good set up, but short of that I might consider a removeable solent stay on a sloop rig for when it gets really snotty. The advantages are that typically one does not require running back stays and its out of your way most of the time. The other problem with some cutters is that many times your forward (larger) sail is needed to really keep some of those heavier boats moving in anything but the heavier winds and tacking that sail through the cutter opening of the staysail stay can be a pain sometimes.
With a forward Code 0 (or Assymetrical) on a roller furler set up semi-permanently on a sprit would be my ideal set up. (thats actually what I am trying to do -- I am thinking about the CDI, Balmar or Facnor loose luffed Asymmetrical spinnaker furlers they have out now Practical Sailor just reviewed some -- I will save that for another thread.) I would have no more than a 135% genny and reasonable mainsail sloop that can handle 20-25kts without reefing (Like my boat now) and which when reefed can handle a constant 35kts if need be. Where I am the facts are that much of the time the winds are less than 8-10 kts so for parts of the summer. That is the reason for the semi-permanently Roller furler cruising spinnaker on a sprit. No need to drag out the turtle bag and raise and lower the spinnaker ever time the wind changes. Just roll it in and out when needed or to put away. I bet a lot more people would be sailing instead of motoring if it was easier to deploy and douse light wind sails. Offshore I always thought a cutter would be a good set up, but short of that I might consider a removeable solent stay on a sloop rig for when it gets really snotty. The advantages are that typically one does not require running back stays and its out of your way most of the time. The other problem with some cutters is that many times your forward (larger) sail is needed to really keep some of those heavier boats moving in anything but the heavier winds and tacking that sail through the cutter opening of the staysail stay can be a pain sometimes.
Tony
I know what you mean...I have to watch myself as far as getting all keyed up about the sail inventory...with my two ruptured disks I kind of slip into being the lazy sailor unfortunately...Maybe when my crew gets more experience we will start playing around...Those twin chutes sure look FUN!..
I know what you mean...I have to watch myself as far as getting all keyed up about the sail inventory...with my two ruptured disks I kind of slip into being the lazy sailor unfortunately...Maybe when my crew gets more experience we will start playing around...Those twin chutes sure look FUN!..
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