Best Bluewater boat 40'-45'

[Moody Buccaneer]

Thanks Ross

The 5 pounds/day/person is a figure that I got form a designer (Lord only knows where they come up with them). It sounds too high to me also. (I'm about to start weighing groceries for a month to get an average figure, but I'm afraid my wife will have me committed). Thanks for pointing me at the Pardey reference. Providing for bulk storage would certainly reduce the pounds/calorie requirement. It also means that a larger percentage of your stores could become spoiled from a mishap.It's been a awhile since I've looked at any of the Pardey books (I don't relate well to sailing with no engine). Does she deal with the water requirements for cooking? What is their experience as far as a gallon per day water budget?Fuel and water for cooking have to enter into the weight budget at some point.Contrary to what some people might think, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to boats, I'd rather estimate high and be happy when I'm wrong than estimate low and curse the way the boat sails.Randy

 

[Robert Gainer]

Water

Randy,I have used the number 1/2 gallon per man per day for many years and it has worked out to be a safe number. I am not big on cooking so I use tined goods instead of bulk packing and that’s both a heavy and expensive way to go on a long trip. To supplement the fresh water I use saltwater for as much as I can and also carry pop and Progresso soups which don’t need water added. For my upcoming trip this summer to Greenland I am looking at adding MRE to the menu. It looks like they provide a more varied menu then tins and stand freezing better then tins.All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Ross]

Randy, Divide all of your stores into smaller

weights in zipper freezer weight bags and stow these in cloth bags. There exist a complete array of semi-rigid plastic boxes with water tight lids. Snack foods keep best in the smallest packages that you can buy. I do a lot ofd home canning and for round trips it is practical but the jars weigh almost as much as the contents.

 

[Robert Gainer]

Sinking is a 100% thing

Rich,I think once you have decided to go offshore it doesn’t matter if you spend 40% of your time there or 100% of your time. The boat needs to be just as ready either way because you don’t just sink 40% you will sink 100% if something goes wrong no matter how much time you intended to be offshore. Also a offshore capable boat is over qualified for inshore work but not the other way around.Good luck and all the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Joe]

No offense Rich, but

you sound like a total geek. If you aren't one, you need one to help you. If I were you I'd get an Amel Supermaru and just go cruising.

 

[Ross]

Years ago when I chanced to meet Hal Roth

We were discussing my boat and I mentioned that it had a 4 1/2 foot draft. At the time he and Margaret were on the Severn river in Annapolis. H esaid he had never had a boat that drew less than seven feet and found that shallower drafts only meant that you could run aground closer to shore.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Centerboard

One way to handle the draft compromise is a centerboard. Hood drew some cruisers with CB's and the Shannon that Wench likes has a centerboard option. 4'9" up8'7" downAlthough it is an added maintenance item, and could possibly get jammed in the down position, it has proved to be a popular choice for the boat. The Shannon is designed to sail with the board in mid positions also, this should allow trimming the lateral area to ease the helm on a reach. That is not from any first hand accounts, but from Shannon. Like all claims made by manufacturers, it should be taken with a grain of salt. However, given Shannon's record of building good offshore boats for 20 years or so, I have no reason to doubt them.MCR for Shannon 43 (@30,000#) = 35.20MCR for Catalina 30 (@13,000#) = 32.44MCR for Pogo 40 (@14,200) = 15.60You are right, it might just be a violent ride. *yks

 

[Robert Gainer]

The seaworthiness debate

Randy,You said,“A seaworthiness debate has been raging for 23 pages on BoatDesign.Net”Yes and they still haven’t finished defining the word seaworthy even with all the collective experience, education and skill among the people in that group. A lot of studies have been done to try to pin it done with ships and still no unified theory or model to define or describe it. Some papers have been presented concerning yachts but again no one has the “answer” yet. Some good stuff to read and debate but with all the time and effort you would think someone at least had a working model of what seaworthy means.The Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers has a group named Small Craft Sailing Technical Panel (SC-2) dedicated to the study of small sailing craft and for some reason I am a member of the panel. I have read more then most in a group like this about what is and is not seaworthy both for professional reasons and because I sail in conditions where the question has some significance. But with all this I don’t have more then just a feeling about what is and is not seaworthy. Some popular books have been published and they are worth reading if for no other reason then to give you some things to think about.I gather that you enjoy getting the best out of the boat and like to not only test yourself against the sea but also against yourself. That’s fine but I enjoy sailing for other reasons and don’t worry too much about the small stuff. Just getting to the destination is sometimes enough of a challenge for me and I am happy with that.All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

LOL ... yep ...

and right about post #4 I said that they were going to have a hard time defining "seaworthy". Now its fallen to name calling and insults.As you might guess, I'm the one claiming that the sailor's role and experience cannot be ignored when seaworthiness is considered. On another topic, what do you think about dodgers at sea? I'm not thrilled about adding the windage, but a corner of the cockpit out of the wind and spray sure sounds nice.Is it goofy to think about a windshield/dodger system like H-R uses?Randy

 

[Robert Gainer]

Skill and luck are important

Randy,I have maintained for years that skill and luck are the two most important ingredients to success with a boat offshore. Good luck bad boat bad skipperGood luck bad boat good skipperGood luck good boat bad skipperGood luck good boat good skipperBad luck bad boat bad skipperBad luck bad boat good skipperBad luck good boat bad skipperBad luck good boat good skipperI have known all of the permutations containing the bad luck factor to not make it at least some of the time. But I have also known some to survive the bad bad bad combination just because the amount of any one category bad was not sufficient to sink the trip. And bad luck with good boat and good skipper will usually survive because the right decisions with good equipment will save the day most of the time.On the other hand I don't know of any trips that failed while containing the good luck component even with both of the other components bad. So I think good luck is more important then skill, experience and proper choice of boat. But skill helps to overcome bad luck.But even if you can't control luck you can control both the good boat part and good skipper part of the equation and then you have a better chance of succeeding instead of leaving everything to random chance and make no effort at selecting a boat and training yourself or doing any preparations at all. This is the sum total of my theory on seaworthiness.A dodger you say. They are nice and I do enjoy hunkering down out of the wind. But I don’t like the full size ones because they won’t survive much of a storm and they can be a real problem if you need to go forward and the dodger is flopping in the breeze. A hatch dodger that is just a little wider then the hatch is probably the best compromise. But I see a lot of boats doing trips with full size dodgers so I may be a little too conservative about this question. A windshield is out of the question. I don’t mind getting hit by dodger parts but having a windshield come at you in a storm is sure to cause you some hurt or even put you over the side. I think that anything above deck that isn’t a solid part of the structure needs to be small enough that getting hit by it when it breaks loose during a roll or storm will not cause you a problem. To me this also means no small boats on deck because you might have the same problems that Ken Barns had when his small boat came loose.All the best,Robert Gainer

 

[Rick D]

Can't Imagine Long Passages W/O A Dodger

... for that matter short ones too. If it is canvas, you can take it down before serious weather Even so, I think I'd just leave it up and replace it if things got so bad it was lost... I spent half my sailing life without one and I wouldn't want to sail now without. You do give up some of the 'feeling', but for longer trips, it's a 'feeling' you can do without. Same for a bimini for southern latitudes.But, I get these are details and not the larger picture you were referring to. For additional details, you have to think dinghy, anchoring, watermaker, genset, communications, security, solar/wind, safety, entertainment, etc, etc.RD

 

[Scott]

I wouldn't hesitate ...

to consider a Najad 44 center cockpit. These boats came out recently and I think I would be easily sold on one. Robert, what is your opinion of the hard windshield on these boats. The Swedish makers seem to have adopted them universally for their climate. I would think they must be rugged.In a boat over 40', I think I would make a center cockpit a high priority for overall vision forward.http://www.boats.com/listing/gallery.jsp?entityid=428040&mid=1939&galleryBack=%2Flisting%2Fboat_details.jsp%3Fsrh_next%3Dtrue%26srh_next%3Dtrue%26entityid%3D428040%26srh_prev%3Dtrue%26srh_prev%3Dtrue&pic=3

 

[Rob]

Im go for a Maurice Griffiths designed 44’

Maurice Griffiths designed 44’ staysail ketchHumm Ive heard of that boat before ,,,recently,,,,,,but I cant just put my finger on it..........Sorry couldnt resist.http://www.kensolo.com/Index.htm