My wife and I are thinking seriously about retiring into the cruising lifestyle. After a year or so cruising the Carribean and the Gulf, we plan to go to the Med and beyond. I read Nigel Calder's book on the subject and am cranked about identifying some boat options. However, I haven't found the right search terms to pull up decent bluewater boats. I'm looking for a cutter sloop in the 40' to 45' range, with AVS >130, STIX and capsize ratios well within the bluewater range, full keel with skeg mounted rudder, and a host of other specs that Calder has convinced me are important. Who makes boats like these? Rich P.S. I checked out Gozzard yachts - the hull design is perfect, though the accommodations lack a good seaberth amidships. Also, expensive done in cherry, but awfully pretty!
- Status
Consider the Island Packet 45
a boat now longer in production or the new IP440. Both are outstanding boats. Island Packet 45 http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=IP45 Island Packet 440 http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=IP440 IMHO
a boat now longer in production or the new IP440. Both are outstanding boats. Island Packet 45 http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=IP45 Island Packet 440 http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=IP440 IMHO
Follow the eminent blue-water 'designers' ......
Robert Perry, William Creighlock, Bob Harris, Pieter Beeldsnijder, etc. Top designers also offer 'consultation services' to help choose the 'right' boat for you and your budget (for fee, of course). Passport, Tayana, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Baba, Gozzard, Morris, TaShing, Little Harbor, Hans Christian etc. etc. etc.. Go to: http://roguewaveyachtsales.com/roguewave/index.html as a representative broker for 'prime' blue water boats .... such brokers will also have knowledge of a 'plethora' of well built quality boats that are 'little known' beyond 'marketing hype' Hope this helps.
Robert Perry, William Creighlock, Bob Harris, Pieter Beeldsnijder, etc. Top designers also offer 'consultation services' to help choose the 'right' boat for you and your budget (for fee, of course). Passport, Tayana, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft, Baba, Gozzard, Morris, TaShing, Little Harbor, Hans Christian etc. etc. etc.. Go to: http://roguewaveyachtsales.com/roguewave/index.html as a representative broker for 'prime' blue water boats .... such brokers will also have knowledge of a 'plethora' of well built quality boats that are 'little known' beyond 'marketing hype' Hope this helps.
Nonplussed: found no answers in the Caribbean??
With thousands of cruising vessels milling around there most every type of boat and sailor is sure to be represented. Perhaps your itinerary kept you from taking full advantage of that opportunity. If so, the best way to find answers to your questions may be to go back and familiarize yourself with as many boats and sailors as you can. IMHO, no amount of websurfing or stomping around boatshows can substitute for being in the middle of where the action is. In the half-dozen or so busy cruising destinations we have visited over the past 15 years (not necessarily with the best of memories... but that is a different story) I have never met a sailor yet who didn't know where to find his dreamboat. In general, the opposite tends to be true. About half of them have already found it and love nothing better than to give you a grand-tour and regale you with their real-life experiences whereas the other half may also be looking but simply because they want something a little bigger, smaller, stronger, faster, etc. etc. that fits their budget and cruising style. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
With thousands of cruising vessels milling around there most every type of boat and sailor is sure to be represented. Perhaps your itinerary kept you from taking full advantage of that opportunity. If so, the best way to find answers to your questions may be to go back and familiarize yourself with as many boats and sailors as you can. IMHO, no amount of websurfing or stomping around boatshows can substitute for being in the middle of where the action is. In the half-dozen or so busy cruising destinations we have visited over the past 15 years (not necessarily with the best of memories... but that is a different story) I have never met a sailor yet who didn't know where to find his dreamboat. In general, the opposite tends to be true. About half of them have already found it and love nothing better than to give you a grand-tour and regale you with their real-life experiences whereas the other half may also be looking but simply because they want something a little bigger, smaller, stronger, faster, etc. etc. that fits their budget and cruising style. Good luck! Flying Dutchman
rlewis, From the answers that you have
received. I think that your next move is to start researching the obscure corners of the cruising sailboat world. You have read Calder. That is a start, there must be forty or fifty others that have written their thoughts, opinions and conclusions into book form. I had suggested a check into the Cruising Club of America as a place to start. My experience is such that all great writters rely on the work and experience of others to flesh out their work. If you read the acknowledgements in Calders work and hunt up those he refers to you will get a new body of work to read and within all that you will find a treasure house of experiences of others most of whom are now long dead. Those wonderful old boats that were built before the racing world got involved in building sail boats. Some of the very best of the old boats started out as working sailboats that were able to live long enough to retire and play.
received. I think that your next move is to start researching the obscure corners of the cruising sailboat world. You have read Calder. That is a start, there must be forty or fifty others that have written their thoughts, opinions and conclusions into book form. I had suggested a check into the Cruising Club of America as a place to start. My experience is such that all great writters rely on the work and experience of others to flesh out their work. If you read the acknowledgements in Calders work and hunt up those he refers to you will get a new body of work to read and within all that you will find a treasure house of experiences of others most of whom are now long dead. Those wonderful old boats that were built before the racing world got involved in building sail boats. Some of the very best of the old boats started out as working sailboats that were able to live long enough to retire and play.
Henk is gentler than I ...
It sounds like you are shopping based on a list in a book rather than a list made from your own experience. One might see an image of apple fritters and think that apple fritters would be wonderful to serve to the family for a holiday dinner. After moths of research one might find a recipe for the worlds finest apple fritters. Having the recipe in hand, one could spend months tracking down all the ingredients on the list. Then one could discover that they don't like cooking, or they don't like apples, or that apples make them sick .... What Nigel Calder or anyone else thinks makes a good "blue water" boat will mean nothing if you can't sail, or don't like it, or you get violently ill or have panic attacks at sea. I could be very wrong, but I think you have very little (if any) sailing experience. IMO starting out with a boat like you describe will slow the learning process and not ensure any success cruising. Shannon Yachts are unquestionably ocean going boats. They don't have full keels. A 10 year old Shannon 43' goes for $395,000, a 20 year old Shannon goes for $375,000. What is your budget? Is it prudent to be thinking about a purchase that size based on someone else's shopping list? Did you choose your wife based on what you read in someones book? If you have a world cruiser budget, why not spend the price of 2 winches and buy a small boat? Learn to sail, learn to keep it in top condition, sail the crap out of it and talk to the owners of bigger boats you meet. Charter bigger boats. Get a feel for the difference between 35 and 45 feet. See if you get sick and stay sick for days on end. When you have your own shopping list, finding the right boat will be easy.
It sounds like you are shopping based on a list in a book rather than a list made from your own experience. One might see an image of apple fritters and think that apple fritters would be wonderful to serve to the family for a holiday dinner. After moths of research one might find a recipe for the worlds finest apple fritters. Having the recipe in hand, one could spend months tracking down all the ingredients on the list. Then one could discover that they don't like cooking, or they don't like apples, or that apples make them sick .... What Nigel Calder or anyone else thinks makes a good "blue water" boat will mean nothing if you can't sail, or don't like it, or you get violently ill or have panic attacks at sea. I could be very wrong, but I think you have very little (if any) sailing experience. IMO starting out with a boat like you describe will slow the learning process and not ensure any success cruising. Shannon Yachts are unquestionably ocean going boats. They don't have full keels. A 10 year old Shannon 43' goes for $395,000, a 20 year old Shannon goes for $375,000. What is your budget? Is it prudent to be thinking about a purchase that size based on someone else's shopping list? Did you choose your wife based on what you read in someones book? If you have a world cruiser budget, why not spend the price of 2 winches and buy a small boat? Learn to sail, learn to keep it in top condition, sail the crap out of it and talk to the owners of bigger boats you meet. Charter bigger boats. Get a feel for the difference between 35 and 45 feet. See if you get sick and stay sick for days on end. When you have your own shopping list, finding the right boat will be easy.
Charter a boat in Tortola or one of the other
islands frequented by folks who are doing what you want to do. Bring lots wine. Row around the anchorage in the afternoon and invite folks over for a glass of wine. Wine is better than rum in this case because it's more expensive and supplies run out faster, plus your informants may stay lucid. Advantages to this plan; It gets you to the islands sooner. You get a chance to talk to folks who are doing what you propose to do. It would be impossible to exaggerate the value of this kind of input before you spend a pile of money. You have an excuse to spend a significant amount of money on a great winter adventure.
islands frequented by folks who are doing what you want to do. Bring lots wine. Row around the anchorage in the afternoon and invite folks over for a glass of wine. Wine is better than rum in this case because it's more expensive and supplies run out faster, plus your informants may stay lucid. Advantages to this plan; It gets you to the islands sooner. You get a chance to talk to folks who are doing what you propose to do. It would be impossible to exaggerate the value of this kind of input before you spend a pile of money. You have an excuse to spend a significant amount of money on a great winter adventure.
Books
This is an excellent list of options for me and my thanks go out to all. Temporally, I appreciate Henk's and Fred's suggestions, as I'm chartering in the BVI next month and will make the opportunity to meet bluewater cruisers happen. Moody Buc - you assume too much and chastise too vigorously. Of the 19 sentences in your post, 10 were either stating incorrect assumptions about my lack of experience or just being down-right sarcastic. I've seen you make similar assumptions to other people's posts and I have to tell you, it doesn't feel good, nor does it encourage infrequent posters who are just looking for information to post. I'm a boat owner, race and cruise regularly, have taken through ASA 106, have a Master's 50 ton license, and have chartered boats up to 54' extensively - but only on production boats set up to accommodate the most number of people since that's about all the charterers have available. I've been seasick once and my wife twice. I strongly believe in researching a topic before commiting anything. I believe in BOTH reading all that I can from those who have gone before me - hence, why I listen in on this web site. From those learnings, I proceed to the experential. I don't have enough of a lifetime left to do it the other way around. My budget will be $300K - $425K for a used boat. My timeframe is seven years of learning before I retire and commit to a boat. Again, folks, thanks for your posts. You're all appreciated.
This is an excellent list of options for me and my thanks go out to all. Temporally, I appreciate Henk's and Fred's suggestions, as I'm chartering in the BVI next month and will make the opportunity to meet bluewater cruisers happen. Moody Buc - you assume too much and chastise too vigorously. Of the 19 sentences in your post, 10 were either stating incorrect assumptions about my lack of experience or just being down-right sarcastic. I've seen you make similar assumptions to other people's posts and I have to tell you, it doesn't feel good, nor does it encourage infrequent posters who are just looking for information to post. I'm a boat owner, race and cruise regularly, have taken through ASA 106, have a Master's 50 ton license, and have chartered boats up to 54' extensively - but only on production boats set up to accommodate the most number of people since that's about all the charterers have available. I've been seasick once and my wife twice. I strongly believe in researching a topic before commiting anything. I believe in BOTH reading all that I can from those who have gone before me - hence, why I listen in on this web site. From those learnings, I proceed to the experential. I don't have enough of a lifetime left to do it the other way around. My budget will be $300K - $425K for a used boat. My timeframe is seven years of learning before I retire and commit to a boat. Again, folks, thanks for your posts. You're all appreciated.
As I said, I could be wrong
I just have never heard that sort of question from anyone with very much sailing experience. We see much the same question asked about once a week here. I'm sorry that you didn't like my response. From reading your post, it sounded like you were shopping with someone elses list, and are not very clear about the nature of boats. What exactly is a "full keel with skeg mounted rudder"? You cannot find such a boat, because they do not exist. Either it has a full keel and the rudder is mounted to the keel, or it has a fin keel and a skeg mounted rudder. I think you will find that there are two schools of thought in offshore yacht design. The traditional, heavy (D/L 300+), full keel or cutaway forefoot boats, and the modern, moderate (D/L 200-300), fin keel boats. Dudley Dix does some very nice blue water boats. I mentioned Shannon in my first post. Michael Kasten does some very nice full keel (cut away forefoot)boats. One often overlooked component of seaworthiness is the ability of the boat to sail to windward in a blow. Most full keel boats are not very good in this regard. Many/most traditional, heavy, full keel boats are motorsailed to weather. A moderate fin keel (ala Cal 40, or Shannon) can have all the directional stability of a full keel boat and also sail well to weather. As you have found, it is hard to find many full keel boats for sale. They are not very popular (IMO for good reason). You will likely end up with a used semi-custom boat if your requirement for a full keel is non-negotiable. This brings up the problem of who built the boat. If the boat was professionally built to Lloyd's or ABYC standards (scantlings) your budget limits your choices. If the boat was owner built, you have to very careful with pre-purchase survey. As soon as you drop the full keel requirement, your budget should give you a choice of many solid blue-water cruisers. Henk chose a Hunter Legend, I like the Shannon's (except for too much wood to take care of), and the 2 cabin Catalina 42. Older Swan's are in your price range, but may be more race oriented than you are looking for. The late 60's early 70's Swans (S&S designs) are good, sound cruisers ... not full keels though. I'd be interested in hearing why you have added a full keel to your list. I'm hard pressed to think of many reasons that would make a full keel a requirement. Once again, I'm sorry if you find the tone of my posts sarcastic. Ken Barnes had a list much like yours when he went boat shopping and we have seen how much good it did him.
I just have never heard that sort of question from anyone with very much sailing experience. We see much the same question asked about once a week here. I'm sorry that you didn't like my response. From reading your post, it sounded like you were shopping with someone elses list, and are not very clear about the nature of boats. What exactly is a "full keel with skeg mounted rudder"? You cannot find such a boat, because they do not exist. Either it has a full keel and the rudder is mounted to the keel, or it has a fin keel and a skeg mounted rudder. I think you will find that there are two schools of thought in offshore yacht design. The traditional, heavy (D/L 300+), full keel or cutaway forefoot boats, and the modern, moderate (D/L 200-300), fin keel boats. Dudley Dix does some very nice blue water boats. I mentioned Shannon in my first post. Michael Kasten does some very nice full keel (cut away forefoot)boats. One often overlooked component of seaworthiness is the ability of the boat to sail to windward in a blow. Most full keel boats are not very good in this regard. Many/most traditional, heavy, full keel boats are motorsailed to weather. A moderate fin keel (ala Cal 40, or Shannon) can have all the directional stability of a full keel boat and also sail well to weather. As you have found, it is hard to find many full keel boats for sale. They are not very popular (IMO for good reason). You will likely end up with a used semi-custom boat if your requirement for a full keel is non-negotiable. This brings up the problem of who built the boat. If the boat was professionally built to Lloyd's or ABYC standards (scantlings) your budget limits your choices. If the boat was owner built, you have to very careful with pre-purchase survey. As soon as you drop the full keel requirement, your budget should give you a choice of many solid blue-water cruisers. Henk chose a Hunter Legend, I like the Shannon's (except for too much wood to take care of), and the 2 cabin Catalina 42. Older Swan's are in your price range, but may be more race oriented than you are looking for. The late 60's early 70's Swans (S&S designs) are good, sound cruisers ... not full keels though. I'd be interested in hearing why you have added a full keel to your list. I'm hard pressed to think of many reasons that would make a full keel a requirement. Once again, I'm sorry if you find the tone of my posts sarcastic. Ken Barnes had a list much like yours when he went boat shopping and we have seen how much good it did him.
I guess you don’t like full keel boats
Moody Buccaneer, I guess you don’t like full keel boats with a cutaway forefoot. A large group of people don’t share your opinion about that. I think a well designed fin keel boat is fine offshore but a well designed full keel boat is also just as valid a choice. Going to windward is not an issue with a well handled and properly designed full keel boat and in fact under some condition the added weight and bite of a full keel is advantages. But more then that laying a-hull is much more comfortable in a full keel boat then the lighter fin keel boats. In fact some fin keel boats will not lay-a- hull and if you don’t have sea room running is not always and option. And if short handed or single handed sailing is what you want to do a fin keel might not be directionally stable enough for a windvane system under all conditions. So under some conditions a full keel is very desirable and it all depends on what you want to do. An example would by my first solo trans-Atlantic in 1974. That trip was done with a Carl Alberg designed full keel 22 foot Sea Sprite and I made that trip without any windvane because the hull was so balanced she could make the trip by sail choice and balancing the boat instead of steering. Selecting a boat involves choosing a system. How you intend to sail and handle the boat defines the type of boat you need. Your well thought out opinions are based on your experience and may not fit into someone else’s plans and they would be better off with a different choice of rig and boat instead of forcing their tactics onto your choice of boat. I don’t like to get involved in discussions about what boat someone should buy because if they are asking the question it usually means they don’t yet have the experience and haven’t read up enough to discuss the selection and fully integrate the boat selection with the intended use of the boat. By the way, today I sail a Tartan 34C designed by S&S during the days of the CCA rule. I have described her at times as a full keel boat with a skeg hung rudder. The size and shape of the lateral plane without the rudder is similar to many full keel boats with a cutaway forefoot. Of course the keel does not extend to the aft end of the waterline but the description is adequate for someone who is familiar with hull shapes. Traditionally a full keel boat had a keel from bow to stern with no cutaway at all. Over time the keel has become shorter with more and more of the forefoot missing and the rudder moved forward with the keel. At some point the rudder was separated from the keel and moved back to the aft end of the waterline. In the path of the evolution of today’s boat his step was a full keel with a separated rudder. Today the keel has become a clear fin independent of the canoe body of the hull proper. I enjoy reading some of your posts. What boat do you sail on now? All the best, Robert Gainer
Moody Buccaneer, I guess you don’t like full keel boats with a cutaway forefoot. A large group of people don’t share your opinion about that. I think a well designed fin keel boat is fine offshore but a well designed full keel boat is also just as valid a choice. Going to windward is not an issue with a well handled and properly designed full keel boat and in fact under some condition the added weight and bite of a full keel is advantages. But more then that laying a-hull is much more comfortable in a full keel boat then the lighter fin keel boats. In fact some fin keel boats will not lay-a- hull and if you don’t have sea room running is not always and option. And if short handed or single handed sailing is what you want to do a fin keel might not be directionally stable enough for a windvane system under all conditions. So under some conditions a full keel is very desirable and it all depends on what you want to do. An example would by my first solo trans-Atlantic in 1974. That trip was done with a Carl Alberg designed full keel 22 foot Sea Sprite and I made that trip without any windvane because the hull was so balanced she could make the trip by sail choice and balancing the boat instead of steering. Selecting a boat involves choosing a system. How you intend to sail and handle the boat defines the type of boat you need. Your well thought out opinions are based on your experience and may not fit into someone else’s plans and they would be better off with a different choice of rig and boat instead of forcing their tactics onto your choice of boat. I don’t like to get involved in discussions about what boat someone should buy because if they are asking the question it usually means they don’t yet have the experience and haven’t read up enough to discuss the selection and fully integrate the boat selection with the intended use of the boat. By the way, today I sail a Tartan 34C designed by S&S during the days of the CCA rule. I have described her at times as a full keel boat with a skeg hung rudder. The size and shape of the lateral plane without the rudder is similar to many full keel boats with a cutaway forefoot. Of course the keel does not extend to the aft end of the waterline but the description is adequate for someone who is familiar with hull shapes. Traditionally a full keel boat had a keel from bow to stern with no cutaway at all. Over time the keel has become shorter with more and more of the forefoot missing and the rudder moved forward with the keel. At some point the rudder was separated from the keel and moved back to the aft end of the waterline. In the path of the evolution of today’s boat his step was a full keel with a separated rudder. Today the keel has become a clear fin independent of the canoe body of the hull proper. I enjoy reading some of your posts. What boat do you sail on now? All the best, Robert Gainer
If you don'r care too much about windward
performance look at a Morgan Out Island 41. More of them have been made than any other sail boat over 40 feet. They were built for the charter business in the Caribean, folks who chartered them went home and bout them. Huge inside, built really strong, full length keel but only 4.5 ft of draft. They sell for half of what you would pay for similar accomodation in another boat. A bit like Catalinas that way. The Morgan actually sails pretty well to windward in ocean conditions if you reef soon and let her stay pretty upright. The weight (27,000 lbs) keeps her going through head seas. I like to motor sail to windward anyway, and the Morgan really shines motor sailing to windward in ocean conditions. Google up Morgan Out Island 41 and check it out.
performance look at a Morgan Out Island 41. More of them have been made than any other sail boat over 40 feet. They were built for the charter business in the Caribean, folks who chartered them went home and bout them. Huge inside, built really strong, full length keel but only 4.5 ft of draft. They sell for half of what you would pay for similar accomodation in another boat. A bit like Catalinas that way. The Morgan actually sails pretty well to windward in ocean conditions if you reef soon and let her stay pretty upright. The weight (27,000 lbs) keeps her going through head seas. I like to motor sail to windward anyway, and the Morgan really shines motor sailing to windward in ocean conditions. Google up Morgan Out Island 41 and check it out.
Good points
about full keel boats. There are some that sail very well and are surprisingly weatherly. There are also many that are real dogs in light air and don't manage to weather in a blow. Good design and handling are harder to get right with full keels. Good design is the key. Just because the boat has a full keel is no guarantee of the good things that *can* come with a full keel hull type. One problem with the charter trade boats is that they are designed for many people for a short time, not for few people for a long time. To get the interior space they have large beam for their length and they trade extra storage for extra cabins. As noted in this thread, they don't tend to have proper sea berths for the off watch. The main cabins are large to accommodate dinner seating for 6-8 and can be a hassle in rough weather due to a lack of hand holds and the same open space that makes them good coastal charter boats can turn into a hazard at sea. I agree that a long keel and skeg hung rudder is a good compromise. Another desirable feature to me is a deep or slack bilge (wine glass) rather than the hard bilge that many of the modern fin keelers have. A slack bilge provides space for tankage and keeps the interior drier. A hard bilge can have water pool over the floorboards when the boat is heeled and a wave finds it's way below through an open hatch. The water doesn't get into the bilge until the boat is more upright so the pumps are of no use when heeled. Skeg hung rudders with the prop in an aperture provide decent handling under power and protection for the prop and shaft, in my mind that is one of the benefits of a full keel without some of the penalties. One of the design features of the Shannon's is that all the ballast is internal. There is nothing wrong with a well designed separate keel, but that brings us back to quality of design and construction being more important than the type. I also agree that a good feature for a cruising boat is the ability to take the ground and set on the keel without pitching forward or aft. The bilge should be strong enough to take the abrasion of a grounding followed by a out-going tide. If the boat is unlucky enough to lay on her side facing the incoming tide, the combings should be high enough so she will float before she down-floods. The Limit of Positive Stability or Angle of Vanishing Stability greater than 130 is a good number and not too limiting. Another important angle to me is the down-flooding angle. It does no good to have an AVS of 140 deg if the boat down-floods at 110 deg. If you can find the RM curve for the boat, the positive angle area should be much greater than the negative angle area. Above 3:1 is a good number, 4:1 or 5:1 is better. The higher the ratio the less time the boat should stay inverted *if* it gets rolled. Unfortunately a log with a fishing weight nailed to one side has a great ratio, but very little ability to carry sail, since the positive area is small also. Beamy, hard bilged boats have high positive numbers and many/most have +/- ratios in the 2.00-2.99 range. These boats are "stiff" and have higher resistance to capsize at the expense of longer inversion time if they do get rolled. One of the issues that a designer faces with a full keel design is the large wetted surface area. Light air performance suffers as a result. These boats require a much higher SA/D ratio for good light air performance than a moderate fin keel boat does. For a cruiser this means that the rig of a full keeled boat must be larger, that means more work for the crew. Many Full keel designs have D/L close to 400 and SA/D down around 12 or 13:1. IMO, these boats are no fun to sail. The average wind speed in the ocean is something like 10 knots. I question the quality of a "cruising" design that needs 15+ knots to sail well. You will find yourself motorsailing in conditions that a good moderate design is quite happy sailing in. As far as laying ahull or leaving to, you are right, full keel boats should be easier on the crew if conditions force these tactics. On the other hand, I'm not sure I've met a moderate fin keeled boat that couldn't be made to heave to, it is just harder to get them stopped and trimmed properly. A well designed moderate cruising boat will still be sailing in conditions that stop a marginal full keel boat. Storm tactics in a fin keel boat are more active than passive. The ability to cover a decent number of miles each day is a safety feature for me. Better sailing performance means that you can substantially reduce the chances of having to ride out a storm. I hate to bring it up here, but the Ken Barnes / Donna Lange? voyages are a case on point. Donna, in a 28 foot boat was making 130+ miles a day and was able to avoid the worst of the storm that rolled Ken. IMO superior sailing performance (of both skipper and boat) is a very high priority. I'll give up some motion comfort to get it. Other sailors have reasons for other priorities. As far as my boat ... it's the Chevy of sailboats ... a Catalina 30. I'm nearing the end of a major rebuild with the idea of sailing the boat from Vancouver South to Mexico, West to Hawaii and back to Vancouver. She's was not chosen for her blue-water ability, she must rely on her crew for that. She has a AVS of 118 and a +/- area ratio of only 2.85 or so. Her companionway hatch is 54 inches wide and a hazard in rough seas, as is her cavern of a main salon. I know from experience that she can take the ground, heel over and sit quite content on her bilge.
I know from the same experience that she rights herself before she floods in the in-coming tide. The reason that I'm thinking of taking her to sea are; she's the boat I have, she's been a faithful companion for over 11 years now, and I know her strengths and weaknesses intimately. When I met my wife, she knew my plan was to take whatever boat, whatever woman, and whatever dog I might have in 2007 and go sailing. It's 2007 and I'm only a year away. Before I take off to head south (fall of 2008), I have several 4 - 10 day shake down passages planned. I've never been seasick, but although I lived aboard for 5 years and sailed regularly, I've never been offshore for more than 36 hours. If I find that days at sea don't agree with me, I'll cancel the ocean plans and I'll still have a great pocket cruiser. If I find that I love it, I'll start shopping for another boat when I return in 2009. My wife has decided that she would rather fly and meet me at the end of legs, she has been honest and though she loves coastal cruising, she has no desire and much anxiety when it comes to passage making. My work as a rigger has brought me into contact with a wide variety of sailors, boats, and rigs. My opinions are based on those of the sailors that have earned my respect. None of the sailors that have made ocean passages or circumnavigations has questioned the idea of taking my Catalina on a Pacific Tour. Bottom line is that IMO the skill of the sailor has equal weight to the design of the boat. No set of specifications will make a poor seaman safe, but good seaman usually find a way to get home ... even in marginal boats. Given my choice of boats, I'd go with a Dix design. His Shearwater 39 and 45 are boats that move me. My wife wants a Shannon 43. I think that an interior layout similar to the Catalina 42 2-cabin Pullman would work well in any of them. Fair winds, Randy
about full keel boats. There are some that sail very well and are surprisingly weatherly. There are also many that are real dogs in light air and don't manage to weather in a blow. Good design and handling are harder to get right with full keels. Good design is the key. Just because the boat has a full keel is no guarantee of the good things that *can* come with a full keel hull type. One problem with the charter trade boats is that they are designed for many people for a short time, not for few people for a long time. To get the interior space they have large beam for their length and they trade extra storage for extra cabins. As noted in this thread, they don't tend to have proper sea berths for the off watch. The main cabins are large to accommodate dinner seating for 6-8 and can be a hassle in rough weather due to a lack of hand holds and the same open space that makes them good coastal charter boats can turn into a hazard at sea. I agree that a long keel and skeg hung rudder is a good compromise. Another desirable feature to me is a deep or slack bilge (wine glass) rather than the hard bilge that many of the modern fin keelers have. A slack bilge provides space for tankage and keeps the interior drier. A hard bilge can have water pool over the floorboards when the boat is heeled and a wave finds it's way below through an open hatch. The water doesn't get into the bilge until the boat is more upright so the pumps are of no use when heeled. Skeg hung rudders with the prop in an aperture provide decent handling under power and protection for the prop and shaft, in my mind that is one of the benefits of a full keel without some of the penalties. One of the design features of the Shannon's is that all the ballast is internal. There is nothing wrong with a well designed separate keel, but that brings us back to quality of design and construction being more important than the type. I also agree that a good feature for a cruising boat is the ability to take the ground and set on the keel without pitching forward or aft. The bilge should be strong enough to take the abrasion of a grounding followed by a out-going tide. If the boat is unlucky enough to lay on her side facing the incoming tide, the combings should be high enough so she will float before she down-floods. The Limit of Positive Stability or Angle of Vanishing Stability greater than 130 is a good number and not too limiting. Another important angle to me is the down-flooding angle. It does no good to have an AVS of 140 deg if the boat down-floods at 110 deg. If you can find the RM curve for the boat, the positive angle area should be much greater than the negative angle area. Above 3:1 is a good number, 4:1 or 5:1 is better. The higher the ratio the less time the boat should stay inverted *if* it gets rolled. Unfortunately a log with a fishing weight nailed to one side has a great ratio, but very little ability to carry sail, since the positive area is small also. Beamy, hard bilged boats have high positive numbers and many/most have +/- ratios in the 2.00-2.99 range. These boats are "stiff" and have higher resistance to capsize at the expense of longer inversion time if they do get rolled. One of the issues that a designer faces with a full keel design is the large wetted surface area. Light air performance suffers as a result. These boats require a much higher SA/D ratio for good light air performance than a moderate fin keel boat does. For a cruiser this means that the rig of a full keeled boat must be larger, that means more work for the crew. Many Full keel designs have D/L close to 400 and SA/D down around 12 or 13:1. IMO, these boats are no fun to sail. The average wind speed in the ocean is something like 10 knots. I question the quality of a "cruising" design that needs 15+ knots to sail well. You will find yourself motorsailing in conditions that a good moderate design is quite happy sailing in. As far as laying ahull or leaving to, you are right, full keel boats should be easier on the crew if conditions force these tactics. On the other hand, I'm not sure I've met a moderate fin keeled boat that couldn't be made to heave to, it is just harder to get them stopped and trimmed properly. A well designed moderate cruising boat will still be sailing in conditions that stop a marginal full keel boat. Storm tactics in a fin keel boat are more active than passive. The ability to cover a decent number of miles each day is a safety feature for me. Better sailing performance means that you can substantially reduce the chances of having to ride out a storm. I hate to bring it up here, but the Ken Barnes / Donna Lange? voyages are a case on point. Donna, in a 28 foot boat was making 130+ miles a day and was able to avoid the worst of the storm that rolled Ken. IMO superior sailing performance (of both skipper and boat) is a very high priority. I'll give up some motion comfort to get it. Other sailors have reasons for other priorities. As far as my boat ... it's the Chevy of sailboats ... a Catalina 30. I'm nearing the end of a major rebuild with the idea of sailing the boat from Vancouver South to Mexico, West to Hawaii and back to Vancouver. She's was not chosen for her blue-water ability, she must rely on her crew for that. She has a AVS of 118 and a +/- area ratio of only 2.85 or so. Her companionway hatch is 54 inches wide and a hazard in rough seas, as is her cavern of a main salon. I know from experience that she can take the ground, heel over and sit quite content on her bilge.
I know from the same experience that she rights herself before she floods in the in-coming tide. The reason that I'm thinking of taking her to sea are; she's the boat I have, she's been a faithful companion for over 11 years now, and I know her strengths and weaknesses intimately. When I met my wife, she knew my plan was to take whatever boat, whatever woman, and whatever dog I might have in 2007 and go sailing. It's 2007 and I'm only a year away. Before I take off to head south (fall of 2008), I have several 4 - 10 day shake down passages planned. I've never been seasick, but although I lived aboard for 5 years and sailed regularly, I've never been offshore for more than 36 hours. If I find that days at sea don't agree with me, I'll cancel the ocean plans and I'll still have a great pocket cruiser. If I find that I love it, I'll start shopping for another boat when I return in 2009. My wife has decided that she would rather fly and meet me at the end of legs, she has been honest and though she loves coastal cruising, she has no desire and much anxiety when it comes to passage making. My work as a rigger has brought me into contact with a wide variety of sailors, boats, and rigs. My opinions are based on those of the sailors that have earned my respect. None of the sailors that have made ocean passages or circumnavigations has questioned the idea of taking my Catalina on a Pacific Tour. Bottom line is that IMO the skill of the sailor has equal weight to the design of the boat. No set of specifications will make a poor seaman safe, but good seaman usually find a way to get home ... even in marginal boats. Given my choice of boats, I'd go with a Dix design. His Shearwater 39 and 45 are boats that move me. My wife wants a Shannon 43. I think that an interior layout similar to the Catalina 42 2-cabin Pullman would work well in any of them. Fair winds, Randy
i've me a little time folks and we can make
this discussion fun. http://old.cruisingworld.com/herbrich.htm This link is to Richey and Jester. http://www.boatingcornwall.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1087528.mostviewed.curlew_owners_return.php This link is to Pauline and Tim Carr and Curlew Hal and Margaret Roth Lyn and Larry Pardey These sailors have earned the right to having their opinions listened to with undivided attention. Donna Lange is quickly getting there. Others here can add names as they see fit but the thing that these people share in common is that their boats are on the small side of all of the discussion here.
this discussion fun. http://old.cruisingworld.com/herbrich.htm This link is to Richey and Jester. http://www.boatingcornwall.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1087528.mostviewed.curlew_owners_return.php This link is to Pauline and Tim Carr and Curlew Hal and Margaret Roth Lyn and Larry Pardey These sailors have earned the right to having their opinions listened to with undivided attention. Donna Lange is quickly getting there. Others here can add names as they see fit but the thing that these people share in common is that their boats are on the small side of all of the discussion here.
Research Help
I am a little farther away from realizing my dream than you are but have basically the same one. In 10-15 years I hope to spend at least half the year exploring the Carib and ultimately making it over to the Med. Maybe even farther. I am still gaining experience, I have a lot to gain yet, and thus knowledge about the boat I want for the next stage. My desires so far are very similar to yours. Stability and able to take what the ocean can dish out lead to a heavily built boat. Probably something in between a full keel and fin keel with rudder mounted on skeg with prop in an aperture for protection of both. I will want to wait for a good weather window and if caught be able to lie a hull. Solid fiberglass hull, private rear stateroom, good tankage, plentiful storage. A cutter rig for the greater options in sail plan it would give me. I also very much like the idea of a Center Cockpit, all of which is why a Morgan Out Island 41 is very near the top of my list. While I know in general what I want knowing which boats offer that are whole different story. There are literally hundreds of different boats out there so finding those that meet my requirements is the hard part. I figured that was the point of this post, to get help from others in narrowing down the field, not questioning the posters criteria. Towards that end I mentioned the Morgan OI 41. Two books that I have in my library to help are: - Used Boat Notebook by John Kretschmer. This contains reviews of 50 different boats describing all aspects of them, strengths, weaknesses, etc. This was very helpful for me as it suggested boats I would not have otherwise. - The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat by John Vigor. I like this one a lot because it goes into virtually every feature of a sailboat and describes why the author things it is valuable for a blue water boat. Using this criteria there is a test a boat can be put through to attempt to score its blue water ability. Not a real help in finding a specific boat but for me it has been helpful in identifying those things that I desire in my dream cruising boat. I don't have the opportunity now to spend much time on boats other than my current which is a 1971 Ericson 29. I love her but she is just not large enough for my wife and I to spend much time on; comfortably anyway. As such I need to make use of the same resources as you for finding my boat. Good Luck, Have Fun and Fair Winds.
I am a little farther away from realizing my dream than you are but have basically the same one. In 10-15 years I hope to spend at least half the year exploring the Carib and ultimately making it over to the Med. Maybe even farther. I am still gaining experience, I have a lot to gain yet, and thus knowledge about the boat I want for the next stage. My desires so far are very similar to yours. Stability and able to take what the ocean can dish out lead to a heavily built boat. Probably something in between a full keel and fin keel with rudder mounted on skeg with prop in an aperture for protection of both. I will want to wait for a good weather window and if caught be able to lie a hull. Solid fiberglass hull, private rear stateroom, good tankage, plentiful storage. A cutter rig for the greater options in sail plan it would give me. I also very much like the idea of a Center Cockpit, all of which is why a Morgan Out Island 41 is very near the top of my list. While I know in general what I want knowing which boats offer that are whole different story. There are literally hundreds of different boats out there so finding those that meet my requirements is the hard part. I figured that was the point of this post, to get help from others in narrowing down the field, not questioning the posters criteria. Towards that end I mentioned the Morgan OI 41. Two books that I have in my library to help are: - Used Boat Notebook by John Kretschmer. This contains reviews of 50 different boats describing all aspects of them, strengths, weaknesses, etc. This was very helpful for me as it suggested boats I would not have otherwise. - The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat by John Vigor. I like this one a lot because it goes into virtually every feature of a sailboat and describes why the author things it is valuable for a blue water boat. Using this criteria there is a test a boat can be put through to attempt to score its blue water ability. Not a real help in finding a specific boat but for me it has been helpful in identifying those things that I desire in my dream cruising boat. I don't have the opportunity now to spend much time on boats other than my current which is a 1971 Ericson 29. I love her but she is just not large enough for my wife and I to spend much time on; comfortably anyway. As such I need to make use of the same resources as you for finding my boat. Good Luck, Have Fun and Fair Winds.
Buying a boat by the numbers
Randy, The Catalina 30 is a nice boat and you will enjoy her offshore. I also have had the opportunity to work on a lot of them and had some fun doing deliveries for a dealer in my area. I also think you are right when you are comparing a full keel and fin keel approach to sailing to compare the best examples of each type instead of comparing one good boat to one poor boat. Like most knowledgeable people you point to some non dimensional ratios to compare and define boats. You know how it works and I think in the back of your mind are applying a fudge factor to allow for the differences that stem from boat size and its effect of these numbers. But I think some of these numbers are generally used inappropriately and in fact are misleading. From reading some of these boards I think people are comparing apples and oranges and may not understand all the numbers. When you are discussing the relative value of a boat for offshore passage making I think you need to consider the fixed dimensions involved and temper you judgment based on the non dimensional numbers. Ross gives us some links and they are for smaller boats which don’t hold up to scrutiny just by looking at the non dimensional ratios. But they do point out the success you can have with a small full keel boat. Stability or the power to carry sail varies as the fourth power of the length on the water line but sail area and wetted surface both vary as the square of the length on the water line. This means that a 30 foot boat needs a very different (greater) beam as a percentage of length to have equivalent stability to a 40 foot boat. As boats get longer they have less beam and draft so the ideal displacement length ratio changes with the size of the boat even staying with the same style of boat. But the ideal prismatic coefficient for a given speed length ratio stays the same if you keep the same target for resistance per pound of displacement. It may just be me but I think the non dimensional ratios are best confined to comparing similar boats of similar size instead of using them trying to decide the choice between full keel and fin keel. For the choice between a fin and full keel one thing I would propose is a number that takes into account the crew dimension and the endurance of the boat. The crew dimension is simply (number in crew) X (weight to support each person) X days of endurance you want out of the boat. Because the amount of weight you can add to a boat is a fixed percentage of displacement the smaller the boat in length the greater the displacement length ratio needs to be to carry the crew and stores without overloading the boat. By this way of thinking as the boat gets smaller you need a heaver boat and at some point a full keel boat is the only boat that will carry enough stores for the crew for the length of time needed. The flip side is as the boat gets larger the need for displacement to carry the crew and have sail carrying power decreases and a comparatively lighter boat with a fin keel starts to come into her own particularly given the fact that sail area or your horsepower only varies as the square of the water line length. As boats get longer the heaver boat will be underpowered because of the difference between the forth power and second power effects of stability and sail area. That’s why larger full keel boats are comparatively slower then smaller full keel boats. It all goes back to making a decision using an overview of the facts and the buyer’s opinions instead of focusing on one or two aspects of a design. The right boat for a given trip, crew, style of sailing etc is a blend with a big part of the decision based on the sailing style, skill and background of the skipper. The numbers are just a part of the decision process and shouldn’t be over emphasized during the process. All the best, Robert Gainer
Randy, The Catalina 30 is a nice boat and you will enjoy her offshore. I also have had the opportunity to work on a lot of them and had some fun doing deliveries for a dealer in my area. I also think you are right when you are comparing a full keel and fin keel approach to sailing to compare the best examples of each type instead of comparing one good boat to one poor boat. Like most knowledgeable people you point to some non dimensional ratios to compare and define boats. You know how it works and I think in the back of your mind are applying a fudge factor to allow for the differences that stem from boat size and its effect of these numbers. But I think some of these numbers are generally used inappropriately and in fact are misleading. From reading some of these boards I think people are comparing apples and oranges and may not understand all the numbers. When you are discussing the relative value of a boat for offshore passage making I think you need to consider the fixed dimensions involved and temper you judgment based on the non dimensional numbers. Ross gives us some links and they are for smaller boats which don’t hold up to scrutiny just by looking at the non dimensional ratios. But they do point out the success you can have with a small full keel boat. Stability or the power to carry sail varies as the fourth power of the length on the water line but sail area and wetted surface both vary as the square of the length on the water line. This means that a 30 foot boat needs a very different (greater) beam as a percentage of length to have equivalent stability to a 40 foot boat. As boats get longer they have less beam and draft so the ideal displacement length ratio changes with the size of the boat even staying with the same style of boat. But the ideal prismatic coefficient for a given speed length ratio stays the same if you keep the same target for resistance per pound of displacement. It may just be me but I think the non dimensional ratios are best confined to comparing similar boats of similar size instead of using them trying to decide the choice between full keel and fin keel. For the choice between a fin and full keel one thing I would propose is a number that takes into account the crew dimension and the endurance of the boat. The crew dimension is simply (number in crew) X (weight to support each person) X days of endurance you want out of the boat. Because the amount of weight you can add to a boat is a fixed percentage of displacement the smaller the boat in length the greater the displacement length ratio needs to be to carry the crew and stores without overloading the boat. By this way of thinking as the boat gets smaller you need a heaver boat and at some point a full keel boat is the only boat that will carry enough stores for the crew for the length of time needed. The flip side is as the boat gets larger the need for displacement to carry the crew and have sail carrying power decreases and a comparatively lighter boat with a fin keel starts to come into her own particularly given the fact that sail area or your horsepower only varies as the square of the water line length. As boats get longer the heaver boat will be underpowered because of the difference between the forth power and second power effects of stability and sail area. That’s why larger full keel boats are comparatively slower then smaller full keel boats. It all goes back to making a decision using an overview of the facts and the buyer’s opinions instead of focusing on one or two aspects of a design. The right boat for a given trip, crew, style of sailing etc is a blend with a big part of the decision based on the sailing style, skill and background of the skipper. The numbers are just a part of the decision process and shouldn’t be over emphasized during the process. All the best, Robert Gainer
Right you are Robert
You are exactly right. The realtionship of pounds per crew per day to boat size forces higher D/L ratios for smaller cruising boats. It is amplified by the fact that smaller boats are slower and have to spend more days at sea to make a passage (more food + more water = more total load for same number of miles). Your observations on the relationship between length, displacement and sail carrying power are also spot on. No need for fat boats as the length goes up. Ted Brewer's "Motion Comfort Ratio" is often used to make a case for heavy boats. But if you look at the formula, the D/L required to get a "good" MCR goes down as the length of the boat goes up. A moderate 40 foot LWL boat can have a better MCR than a heavy 25 foot LWL boat. If your budget allows, one of the Dashew designs (very low D/L for a "cruiser") at 55+ feet LWL gives both speed and comfort. At 40-45 feet LOA I don't see a need for a full keel hulform. At 25-30 feet the case gets better. My C30 has a lightship displacement of 10,500, the sailing weight on my IMS certificate is just under 13,000. At 834 pounds per inch immersion 2500 pounds of load sinks the boat about 3 inches. I'm looking at a total load budget of 2500 pounds in gear, crew, water, food, and fuel. As I go back together with the boat in the next couple of months I'll keep a log of everything that goes back in the boat. If I use 350 pounds each for two crew and clothing, I have 1800 pounds for the rest. If I budget 21 pounds a day for food and water per person for 30 days at sea, that's 1260 pounds (for 2 people), leaving only 540 pounds for other gear, fuel and spares. If I add a water maker I can reduce the weight budget from 21 pounds per day per person (5 food, 16 water) to say 10 pounds/person/day. Now my 30 day supply is 600 pounds and I can carry 1140 pounds of gear (including the watermaker), fuel, and spares. 2 gallons/day/person for 30 days is 120 gallons of water for two people. How many small boats have that much tankage? For the same passage, the 40-45 foot boat might need only 20 days of supplies. That's 80 gallons in the water tanks in the larger boat. Again, no need for the full keel hullform on the 45 footer that might allow the 30 footer to have 120 gallons of water on board. I know it sounds like I'm over-thinking this, but I think it is prudent to keep the boat within design limits and have a safety margin in stores for any planned passage. BTW S&S has done some of the nicest boat ever to sail. I think it would be hard to go very wrong with one of their cruising designs. Randy
You are exactly right. The realtionship of pounds per crew per day to boat size forces higher D/L ratios for smaller cruising boats. It is amplified by the fact that smaller boats are slower and have to spend more days at sea to make a passage (more food + more water = more total load for same number of miles). Your observations on the relationship between length, displacement and sail carrying power are also spot on. No need for fat boats as the length goes up. Ted Brewer's "Motion Comfort Ratio" is often used to make a case for heavy boats. But if you look at the formula, the D/L required to get a "good" MCR goes down as the length of the boat goes up. A moderate 40 foot LWL boat can have a better MCR than a heavy 25 foot LWL boat. If your budget allows, one of the Dashew designs (very low D/L for a "cruiser") at 55+ feet LWL gives both speed and comfort. At 40-45 feet LOA I don't see a need for a full keel hulform. At 25-30 feet the case gets better. My C30 has a lightship displacement of 10,500, the sailing weight on my IMS certificate is just under 13,000. At 834 pounds per inch immersion 2500 pounds of load sinks the boat about 3 inches. I'm looking at a total load budget of 2500 pounds in gear, crew, water, food, and fuel. As I go back together with the boat in the next couple of months I'll keep a log of everything that goes back in the boat. If I use 350 pounds each for two crew and clothing, I have 1800 pounds for the rest. If I budget 21 pounds a day for food and water per person for 30 days at sea, that's 1260 pounds (for 2 people), leaving only 540 pounds for other gear, fuel and spares. If I add a water maker I can reduce the weight budget from 21 pounds per day per person (5 food, 16 water) to say 10 pounds/person/day. Now my 30 day supply is 600 pounds and I can carry 1140 pounds of gear (including the watermaker), fuel, and spares. 2 gallons/day/person for 30 days is 120 gallons of water for two people. How many small boats have that much tankage? For the same passage, the 40-45 foot boat might need only 20 days of supplies. That's 80 gallons in the water tanks in the larger boat. Again, no need for the full keel hullform on the 45 footer that might allow the 30 footer to have 120 gallons of water on board. I know it sounds like I'm over-thinking this, but I think it is prudent to keep the boat within design limits and have a safety margin in stores for any planned passage. BTW S&S has done some of the nicest boat ever to sail. I think it would be hard to go very wrong with one of their cruising designs. Randy
Randy, from a nutritional point you are allowing
too much for food. Cereal products run about 2000 calories per pound as does meat. Legumes(beans, peas etc) run about 1500 calories per pound,canned goods(fruit,tomato sauce)calories per pound. Fats (butter, bacon, summer sausage, hard cheese) allow 3000 calories per pound. Allow about 2500 calories per person per day depending on indivual size. Lyn Pardey in her book "The care and feeding of an off shore crew" covers this topic very nicely.
too much for food. Cereal products run about 2000 calories per pound as does meat. Legumes(beans, peas etc) run about 1500 calories per pound,canned goods(fruit,tomato sauce)calories per pound. Fats (butter, bacon, summer sausage, hard cheese) allow 3000 calories per pound. Allow about 2500 calories per person per day depending on indivual size. Lyn Pardey in her book "The care and feeding of an off shore crew" covers this topic very nicely.
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