Battery Switch Question ?

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Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I agree completely. By now, you and I should have enough "ammunition" to complete our "here's how it should be done article" and then just keep posting it. You and I both know we have enough links, so one day we should be able to finish the "all in on place primer" - but that's why they write books, right?:)

Stu,

Stu,

I would certainly classify the ACR as a simple relay. According to Xantrex tech support, who knowing them could be wrong, the Echo is not really a "simple relay" like a combiner/ACR it is more of a DC - DC electronic charger. It has an internal voltage sensing chip that turns the unit on at 13v but no two way combining type "relay" like an ACR has. This device only works in one direction and does not combine banks. I think that is the most important distinction between the two products. Where a combining relay/ACR works equally as well in both directions the Echo only works in one direction.

It is critically important to remember that this device only works passing current from the house bank to the reserve/start bank. ALL charge sources MUST be led to the house bank other wise the unit will not work correctly. Leading the alt to the common post of the batt switch can make it not work at all when the start battery is selected via the switch. Unfortunately this is NOT made very clear in the manual. I have been asking Xantrex to change this now for well over a year and a half but.....
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Do you mean when something is drawing power from it or when it is trying to put out power with nowhere to go? (Forgive my ignorance on this.)
Yes. AO (alternator output) needs somewhere to go. To C post it can be interrupted. To house bank, never.

Please re-read all this stuff, then you'll get it.

Please.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Do you mean when something is drawing power from it or when it is trying to put out power with nowhere to go? (Forgive my ignorance on this.)
When the alternator is actively charging a bank, or banks, this is a "load". If you disconnect that "load", by passing through the OFF position on the battery switch you run a very high risk of blowing the diodes and creating a massive on-board voltage transient.. If you wire the alternator directly to the battery bank (properly fused) this can't happen.
 
Jul 28, 2010
914
Boston Whaler Montauk New Orleans
When the alternator is actively charging a bank, or banks, this is a "load". If you disconnect that "load", by passing through the OFF position on the battery switch you run a very high risk of blowing the diodes. If you wire directly to the bank this can't happen.
What happens when all the banks are full?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Re: Battery Switch Question ? Why Risk It?

wink - See Reply #11 here (It's a different link than the one earlier): http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2977.0.html

MS explained it: you run a VERY HIGH RISK.

And unless you have been on shorepower overnight, your house bank is rarely ever FULLY charged because alternators just can't do that unless you have been running your engine literally forever, which is rare.

Guys, it just isn't worth the RISK.

Does that mean diodes will survive if the brother-in-law flips the switch when the alternator is running and you still have your AO going to the C post?

Could someone please explain to me why anyone would wanna risk it?

Your boat, your choice.
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Not quite, kenn.

We've had so many discussions of this on this board that it almost has become repetitious, although for newcomers, it's, well, new to them!:)
Thanks Stu, that's the sort of info I was seeking out. And thanks for all your other info on this subject. Perhaps a sticky would be a good idea.

Note that your links are to the C34 forum. not 'this board' per se. Just sayin'.
 
Jun 4, 2004
24
Ericson E-38 Bay City, MI
I used exactly the system that Main Sail wrote up for years on our Ericson. The one thing I would add is that depending on how long you are away from the dock (and AC power for your electric battery charger), you may not really need any type of battery combiner or voltage activated relay to charge your back up battery.

I had a West Marine battery combiner installed, but one year I left it disconnected as a test and checked on the state of my back up battery, and it never dropped from full charge during my month long cruise. For full time cruising you would for sure need such a way to charge your back up, but if you are only gone from AC power and your electric battery charger for a few weeks, you could probably safely omit that extra detail.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Note that your links are to the C34 forum. not 'this board' per se. Just sayin'.
Kenn, you're very welcome. Please note that some of the links in the C34 board are back to this very forum.

Bill, my switch is OFF-1-BOTH-2.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
...but one year I left it disconnected as a test and checked on the state of my back up battery, and it never dropped from full charge during my month long cruise.
Good point, Steve. We've noted in the past that folks take their batteries out of their boats and leave them in the garages during the winter, sometimes without charging. Six months in a Minnesota winter garage is about equal to a year on a boat in a temperate clime without ever being charged, as long as they are fully charged before being put to bed.

That's one of the many reasons MS and I are proponents of the system we've described.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,249
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
My switch ...

is very simple. You turn it on and both batteries are on and separate. I use one battery for start and one battery for house. You turn it off. There is a combined setting which can be used to combine both batts for emergency or whatever. So there are just 3 settings which seem to have an appropriate use for each. I use an ACR for wet cell batts. The only thing I need to change is my alternator output. For now, it is connected to the POS post on the starter, which means that AO first runs thru the switch at the start batt post. I intend to re-wire to connect it to the house batt. That's a winter project, and winter is coming on too soon!:cry:

Nereussailor, I would recommend the switch that I have except that it is unnecessary if your switch is still useful and the budget is tight. When I got my boat, I had a nasty crack in the plastic housing of mine so I wanted to change it out anyway. However, I think there may be some controversy regarding the type of switch I have. :evil:
 
Mar 22, 2004
733
Hunter 30 Vero Beach
Just a quick update. I rewired everything, made a couple of changes with the house bank wiring like running a direct line for the bilge pump, using proper terminals on the selector switch, and wiring in a fused wire to the battery so the alternator is safe. I'd go the route with the echo charger and ACR, but I'm hooked up to shore power almost everyday so I don't see it as necessary at this time. It will be at some point in the future, but other projects prevail. Thanks for all the help everyone.

Dave
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
For now, it is connected to the POS post on the starter, which means that AO first runs thru the switch at the start batt post. I intend to re-wire to connect it to the house batt. That's a winter project, and winter is coming on too soon!

Scott - since you have an ACR just switch the AO from the reserve bank post to the house bank post, if you have a 1-2-B switch, that was unclear. With your ACR, if so, you're done, different end of same wire.

Combining batts in an emergency? That will create one. Unless charging, one should never need to combine banks.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,249
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Stu, no I don't have 1-2-B, I have "On" where both banks are actively on and separate, and "Combined" where both banks are actively on and combined. This is a Blue Seas Switch. However, I don't have battery 'banks', I just have 2 batteries and one is dedicated to post for starting and the other is dedicated to the post for house.

Also, my AO DOESN'T lead to the switch. For expediency, the output wire from the alternator just makes a short 6" hop to the POS post of the starter. Because the starter is wired to the starter post (remember, one post is dedicated to the starter batt and one post is dedicated to the house batt) of the switch, that is why I made the comment. To change the AO to charge the house batt first, I am thinking that I have to make the 4 or 5 foot run from the alternator to either the switch or the ACR (or the house battery) which are all in the same general location.

I do have an ACR so that both batteries charge off the alternator (my only source for charging until I install a solar charger just for fun) when the switch is turned "On" and the batteries are separately used (so I don't have to 'combine' batteries to charge).

What I meant by emergency, I suppose, is an instance where either my start battery or my house battery runs down and I want to combine the 2 batteries for power either way. But with our extremely light use of both batteries, we don't have emergencies.

Actually, though, I am beginning to see a valid point for having separate banks with separate on and off positions. This became more clear to me when MS said that he just uses his house bank for starting. It wasn't very clear to me when I was assuming that most people separate their house bank from their start battery. In that instance, I couldn't understand why anybody would use one bank for house power while they had to turn the switch for starting and that it is far easier to just have both banks on, but then they aren't separated but rather combined, which isn't necessarily what you want. In MS's case, his auxillary bank is truly auxillary and I can see the point in leaving it off and always just having the switch in the 1 position.

For now, I just have room in my battery space for 2 batteries and I can only add an auxillary if I assign a space in an area with far less accessibility. So I don't have 2 batt banks, I just have 2 batts.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,016
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Scott, I hear ya

It just occurred to me that you have the Blue Seas dual circuit switch.

I am glad you're "beginning to see the light" because you DO have two banks. You call them batteries, but each one, by definition is a bank.

The emergency would be to combine them if one is low! That's specifically why MS & I keep promoting the old 1-2-B.

As long as you, as you have, understand how it's wired and how it works, you're way ahead of most folks.

If you can't add a third battery and make your two existing batteries into one bigger bank, then stay with what you have, because at least you have two separated sources of power. Only downside is decreased range of your house power, but IIRC, you're a daysailor on a lake, right? And even one night out without a fridge, it looks like you're fine for power as you use it.
 

IanJ

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Nov 7, 2008
152
Hunter 31 Port Royal, CA
Battery Switch

Maine Sail
Thanks for your very interesting and in depth analysis, which has really helped me in this matter, which has always been a grey area for me.
In following your advice, I have two batteries hooked up to Switch 1, which also have the alternator, fridge condensor and shore charger attached to them. On Switch 2 I just have my reserve battery. I am getting a Blue Sea SI relay, which I will install as soon as it arrives. Can you just confirm 2 things for me;
1) When I leave the boat, and am plugged into shorepower, I leave the switch on OFF and the batteries will charge?
2) When I am under power, or just running engine to charge batteries, do I have setting on 1, OFF or BOTH?
Thanks
Ian


Dave,

It is perfectly fine the way it is. There is little to no need on a small sailboat with small aux diesel to need a dedicated "starting" battery. I have started all my engines, for a long, long time on my house banks. I use a 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch on my own boat and only ever use position #1 (house) and OFF. Position #2 (reserve bank) and BOTH are for an emergency only. I don't think in terms of a start and house I think in terms of a reserve and house.

The 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch is a very useful device and there are a few small changes that you can make that will make it even better. Please do keep the 1/2/BOTH/OFF. Everything you need for a very simple and redundant system is already there and there is no need to spend more money on new switches or drill yet more holes in your boat over what you already have.

Simply make your house bank #1, ,or "primary" and the start/emergency battery #2 or "back up/secondary". #2 as a secondary battery, for me, is always easy to remember but this is just a personal preference.

When you get to the boat simply switch to bank 1. When you leave the boat simply switch to OFF. You'll use the house batts for everything.. By doing this you'll only ever need to use position #1/House yet your emergency (start) bank will always be sufficiently charged if and when it is needed if you've also upgraded to an Echo or ACR type charging device. The charging of the start bank can all be done behind the scenes and is automatic by adding an ACR or Echo type charger. Doing this avoids the large "human error" factor of memory lapses.


What happens if I kill my house bank?

If you kill a bank don't fall into the trap of combining the dead bank with a perfectly good one by using the BOTH feature. Simply switch to the second fully charged reserve bank when you need to. Combining a good bank with a dead bank only bleeds off precious cranking amps from the good battery.

Can my house bank really start my engine?

YES!! If you are practicing good battery management and never discharging the house bank below 50% state of charge you should always be able to start your engine just fine using the house bank and will only ever use the battery switch when you get to the boat to flip it to position #1/House. When you leave turn it to OFF. I have three group 29/31 batteries on my vessel. Even though they are deep cycle they still produce a combined MCA (marine cranking amp) rating of well over 3000 amps at about 65 degrees F. My single group 31 reserve battery, in comparison, only has 1000 MCA.


It takes VERY LITTLE from your bank to start a small diesel. In fact I can not even measure .1 Ah of consumption from a 240 Ah bank, using a Xantrex Link Pro when I start my 44HP four cylinder diesel.

Starting the engine requires very, very little from a battery, many folks over think this and believe it requires a lot more than it really does. The peak in-rush current draw, for a split second, on my 44HP four cylinder Westerbeke is about 160 amps (peak split second current). The starter motor on my Westerbeke is a 1.5 kW an the starters on the average Universal M-25's are .8 kW.

The 1/2/ALL/OFF switch is a great device, if wired appropriately. When wired in the fashion most builders do, it sucks and thus gets a bad rap.

The 1/2/ALL/OFF switch retains all the original features & benefits yet looses the frying of diodes and the switching back and forth if you wire the alt direct to house and use an ACR, Echo type charger to top off the start bank.

For instance if your ACR or Echo Charger failed, which could happen, you can always use the ALL/BOTH feature to charge both banks from the alt just as you always did. No repairs or jumper wires just flip the switch to ALL, for charging, and you're back in business.. You will not however fry the alternator diodes because it always has a load on it by wiring directly to the house bank.

It is a good idea to add a fuse/breaker within 7" of the battery for the direct feed alt wire. It is also a good idea to fuse your banks.

As always there is no one right way to wire banks, unless you do it dangerously, but on small boats it makes little sense to ditch a perfectly good 1/2ALL/OFF when a simple re-wire will give you everything you need with simplicity and total redundancy should a combiner fail..

#1 Assign house bank to batt switch position #1
#2 Install reserve battery to position #2
#3 Wire alternator output directly to the house bank with sufficient size cable & fuse.
#4 Install ACR or Echo Charger between banks.
#5 Use boat in position #1 for starting AND house loads. Switch to OFF when you leave it's that simple.



So why do I want to wire my alt direct to the house bank??

I prefer to feed the alt directly to the house bank and not the reserve bank as the start bank is for back up or emergency, in this situation, and would usually be at or near 100% SOC anyway.

1- No more worries about fried diodes.

2- Accurate voltage sensing & less chance of voltage drop over factory wiring.

3- If you use an Echo Charger you need to do this anyway

You should NOT however wire the alt directly to the house battery unless you have either a VSR/ACR (voltage sensitive relay/ automatic charging relay) or a unit like the Echo Charger or Balmar Duo Charger.

Follow me on this one.

If you sense/wire directly to the house bank, bank 1, but do not have an ACR or Echo type unit installed, this means you could physically select the battery being used via the 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch.

If you select bank two as your source and the alt is connected to bank 1 you will draw down bank two and not replenish it unless the ALL function is selected during charging. In short, without an ACR or Echo type charger I would not wire directly to the house bank and instead would leave it wired through the common post of the battery switch.

With an ACR/Echo you can still select bank 2 but it will automatically be getting charged via the combiner or Echo even with the house bank being direct wired...


So what is a battery combiner / ACR / VSR??

Blue Sea ACR Si Series (LINK)

An ACR is an automatic charging relay. ACR is Blue Sea Systems trade name. They are also know as VSR's or voltage sensitive relays. A VSR is essentially a high current automatic relay that senses voltage and combines banks when the voltage rises. If it senses 13.6 volts for more than 30 seconds it combines and if it sense more than 13.0 volts for two minutes it also combines. When the VSR senses a drop in voltage below roughly 12.35V for more than 10 seconds it disconnects or when it sense 12.75V or less for more than 30 seconds it also disconnects the banks. These devices are very simple and fully automatic requiring no human intervention at the battery switch. Truly "set it and forget it"..:)

Start the engine and when the charge voltage begins to rise the VSR/ACR automatically energizes the relay, closes it, and "combines" the banks for charging, just like if you flipped the 1/2/BOTH/OFF to ALL. The best feature is that it NEVER forgets to disconnect the banks when a charge source is not present. When the batteries are not seeing a charge source they are disconnected from one another. These devices are relatively inexpensive $65.00 - $150.00 depending upon model. They are also very easy to wire. The Blue Seas ACR has three wires to connect, ground and house and start bank jumpers. Yandina also makes a battery combiner/VSR

The unit labeled ACR is a Blue Seas ACR:



So what is an Echo Charger?

Xantrex Echo Charger (LINK)

The Xantrex Echo Charger is an electronic 12v to 12v charger. It DOES NOT combine the banks and the banks remain isolated. It simply takes or "bleeds" it's power from the charge source or the house bank and when it senses over 13.0 volts energizes and begins charging the reserve bank. When it sense below 13.0 volts it turns charging off. It can supply up to 15 amps of charge current to the reserve battery while borrowing/bleeding it from the house bank. Normally that battery will be at or near full and you'll rarely ever see it pull more than an amp or two anyway so 98% of the time your alts full output heads directly to the house bank. The Echo Charger is also a voltage follower and will follow the incoming voltage to the house bank. When the house goes into float mode so does the reserve bank.

The Echo Charger is also a simple three wire hook up but needs to feed the reserve bank, and pull from the house bank. All charge sources should be fed to the house bank, solar, alternator, wind and shore side charger.

This is an Echo Charger:


The Balmar Duo Charger is similar to the Echo but more expensive and can supply up to 30 amps of charge current. It does have a few flaws so I'd stick with the Echo or ACR.


By simply adding an ACR or ECHO only, you can still go to your boat and select HOUSE and when you leave select OFF. That's it, simple...

Some folks complain of voltage drop out for electronics when starting off the house bank. I have never experienced this in any of my installations. I can start my engine and not reset any of my electronics even down to about 35-40% state of charge. If this is a concern then your batts may be ready for replacement or you have some bad connections. To avoid this you can start the motor, then flip on the instruments.

You CAN direct wire a dedicated start battery but it will be more complicated if you want to retain the ability to start off the house bank in an emergency. This is why the 1/2/BOTH/OFF is such a good tool despite it often being incorrectly maligned..


P.S. I edited the title so you hopefully get more responses...
 

IanJ

.
Nov 7, 2008
152
Hunter 31 Port Royal, CA
Maine Sail
Thanks for your very interesting and in depth analysis, which has really helped me in this matter, which has always been a grey area for me.
In following your advice, I have two batteries hooked up to Switch 1, which also have the alternator, fridge condensor and shore charger attached to them. On Switch 2 I just have my reserve battery. I am getting a Blue Sea SI relay, which I will install as soon as it arrives. Can you just confirm 2 things for me;
1) When I leave the boat, and am plugged into shorepower, I leave the switch on OFF and the batteries will charge?
2) When I am under power, or just running engine to charge batteries, do I have setting on 1, OFF or BOTH?
Thanks
Ian
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I am getting a Blue Sea SI relay, which I will install as soon as it arrives. Can you just confirm 2 things for me;


1) When I leave the boat, and am plugged into shorepower, I leave the switch on OFF and the batteries will charge?
This depends upon how you have the battery charger wired in and whether the switch for the battery charger is on. Theoretically if your charger is on, and wired to the house bank, then the ACR will combine whether the battery switch is on or not.

2) When I am under power, or just running engine to charge batteries, do I have setting on 1, OFF or BOTH?
Thanks
Ian
It should only need to be set to Bank 1, if that is where your alt leads, is your house bank and you have the ACR connected to the reserve battery which is bank 2. Adding the ACR removes the necessity of using the BOTH feature to charge BOTH banks. If the alt is wired directly to the battery then in theory the switch could be set to OFF but then you would not be able to start your motor, run the fuel pump or any other systems so it should always be set to ON when running the engine.

Wiring your system this way allows you to simply arrive at the boat, flip to position #1 and never do anything else until you get back to the dock and turn the system to OFF.
 

RobG

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Jun 2, 2004
337
Ericson 28 Noank, Ct
One more question

I'm going this route too. I have an OFF-1-BOTH-2 switch and am going to wire in a Xantrex Digital Echo Charger not only for the alt but a solar panel. Question: During charging if the battery switch passes through BOTH it would be shorting the two Echo Charger outputs together. That doesn't sound OK to me nor is it idiot proof. Nothing is in the little manual or on Xantech's web site about protection other than reverse polarity. What do you guys think?
 
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